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Pre-Proposal - Visual Identity

Discussion in 'Budget Proposal Discussions' started by fernando, Mar 23, 2018.

  1. TheBigCat

    TheBigCat Member

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    I hate to bring up basic psychological tendencies here, but I believe it is very important to consider before jumping to conclusions. Please read this: https://www.jeremysaid.com/blog/customers-will-choose-middle-offer/


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  2. Kanuuker

    Kanuuker New Member

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    @JOL - there was no study done with the T&C logo. O&M only surveyed their logo against a modified original Dash logo and a different version of O&M's logo, an especially bad variant at that. As a masternode owner with voting rights that affect everyone, you have a responsibility to take the time to understand what you're voting on, which you obviously did not do.
     
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  3. JOL

    JOL Member

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    que ce qui s'approche de l'ancien logo et donc de celui proposé par T&C - makes it clear that what comes close to the old logo and therefore the one proposed by T & C
     
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  4. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    I have cast my vote to O&M, they have made it clear how out-dated the current logo is.

    1. The "DD" logo stands for Dash DAO; a movement for change, a voice for freedom "Digital Cash" is just a strapline, a much smaller part of what dash truly is. If you're voting for currency symbols, you've forgotten what dash stands for.

    2. I reject comments that O&M's logo is too "corporate". Who says a DAO can't be professional and compete with visa and mastercard?

    3. I am outraged that Core feels they can ignore the rules of super majority. If one of these logo "wins" according to their newly invented rules, I will be causing havoc. In particular, I may attempt to overturn the decision via the newly formed dash trust i.e. Core must abide by masternode wishes. This is governance by blockchain, not Core. To be clear, in the most recent conference call, Ryan said the treasury / governance system was working as planned, that any updates to it were considered low priority.
     
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  5. mastermined

    mastermined Active Member

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    I've changed my mind on the O&M design. After seeing Marks side by side mockup pictures and others I think we should just keep our current logo and dress it up a bit.

    I like this one with maybe a few tweeks.
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    You guys are making a complete mess of this. This proposal is not about currency symbols or "iconic D"s. Go ahead and show me where it says that?

    Mercedes Benz, a three point star, originally represented their ambition to rule over "air, land and sea". How many of you knew that? - none? - why not? So who do you think is going to look at that finger in a hole and think "dash"?? The general public doesn't care for your "heritage" and the people putting genomic registration on the dash blockchain aren't thinking about "cash". How small your minds to think that the height of dash's success is to be cash, or stuck with a bland icon that has outstayed it's welcome. All that pent-up nostalgia has gone to your head.

    Additionally, if either of these icons are implemented without passing super majority, then kiss goodbye to your "DAO"; the start of a very slippery slope. It would, I suppose, be a governance fork, choosing to abuse the tool you live and die by.
     
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  7. kot

    kot Administrator
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    I would really encourage you to present three logos to your families and friends (especially to those, who know nothing about crypto) and ask for an opinion, without providing too much of context or emotional background.
    I think you might be surprised as I was surprised, when made this exercise.
     
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  8. TheBigCat

    TheBigCat Member

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    I would encourage everyone to not only present these three images to family and friends for feedback but to present Them in a different order than the original logo first, the Ogilvy and Mather logo second and the Tharp and Clark 3rd. The natural tendency psychologically for anyone seeing the three images is to choose the middle one. Makes up the order and then check out your responses. Of course Ogilvy and Mather knew this so they presented them this way when they did their “market research”. They are not dummies. They are also not the best choice in my opinion. They are the most expensive though!


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  9. TheBigCat

    TheBigCat Member

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    Mix up the order, I meant. Sorry, Voice to text error above.


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  10. toknormal

    toknormal Guest

    Mirrored from the exchanges on Discord forum:

    One thing which I think is significant that hasn't been much mentioned: What is the strength in Dash ?

    It's really the community.

    I didn't really appreciate this till recently when I rethought my ideas on "monetary tech" a little bit. But the community is a major reason now why people invest in cryptocurrency projects (because they are decentralised !). When I think back on it, it was actually the reason I invested in Dash because the Dash bitcointalk thread was the first one I'd seen that seemed to have "normal" people in it rather than fanatics - so I bought some without knowing much about the tech.

    So if we ditch the current logo which has represented the community, we're kind of ditching a symbol that has facilitated its growth. IMO we must not do that. Logos are far more powerful if they have a pedigree and our current one has a lot of social energy invested in it. We should respect that and allow it to grow with the project as a way of keeping everybody on board.

    Keeping the original logo and evolving it is a sign to future investors that we value both the future and the past. That we create solid things and build on them. That whatever energy they contribute won't be wasted.

    They will research the past history of this asset and see that there has been continuity which they will consider far more valuable than novelty.

    Any logo can work. There are hugely successful companies with sh*t logos and many failed ones with great logos. It isn't the appearance of the logo that matters, it's what it represents. That's why I think we should respect the fact that our current design was solicitated by the community in an informal way, originated in the community and was accepted by the community and should be used as the basis for the future. I don't agree with the idea that this is just a "marketing exercise" because Dash wouldn't be here if it was just a marketing excercise.

    Apple Records and Apple Computer were proud enough of their heritage to carry their identity into the mainstream despite having used a "fruit" to start off with. So should we be.

    [​IMG]
     
    #220 toknormal, Mar 25, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2018
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  11. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    @kot that's a great idea, but it's a real shame that we are here needing to rely on anecdotal evidence instead of a serious field study. The O&M research simply did not compare the current logo or the T&C logo with theirs. They compared theirs with a blue-and-pink gradient version of dash's current logo. Right now I would pay anything to have a study done comparing our actual options, and I think it's unfortunate that this vote is being presented to the MNOs without this essential information.
     
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  12. toknormal

    toknormal Guest

    Hi @kot

    Your opinions are extremely valued and I always rate your contributions. I have to just challenge you on this particular point.

    Our families are not the appropriate reference point here in my opinion. We are.

    These are new markets and we shouldn't be having recourse to people's prejudices to gauge what works in the future. We should not be looking to them for guidance since this is crypto, people are looking to US for guidance.

    Dash has no option but to chart its own course and that applies to every aspect of the project from top to bottom because that's the only way that we will appeal - on our own grounds which is something that commercial markets are always looking for.

    The Ogilvy and Mather brand book says they their design is "bold". But in fact the "boldest" design in reality is the one that the community solicited, generated, that facilitated its growth and to which it relates. We can always have professionals improve it but institutionalised designs are not "bold", they're just one guy's idea of what's bold while they're at home over a glass of wine.

    This community is battle hardened and so is that logo. We do not want to lose it.

    We don't mind adjusting it.
     
    #222 toknormal, Mar 25, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2018
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  13. Stan Warford

    Stan Warford New Member

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    Looks too much like a stencil, IMO.
     
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  14. geolibertarian

    geolibertarian New Member

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    I was confused at first what you meant by that link, since you say you prefer the T&C logo and that article seems to point out why it's silly to think that way. But I see now that by "middle" you mean the positioning order in a survey.

    At first, I thought you meant most people prefer the "middle" option, as in:

    1. The original/current logo is the baseline choice.
    2. The T&C logo is a "slight refresh" median choice.
    3. The O&M logo is the "radically different" extreme choice.

    Therefore, the middle choice is the T&C logo, which people are saying they prefer - it's "enough similar to what we have" but "different enough of a change" so as the article you linked explains, that's why many of us are seeming to prefer it...

    Psychology at work here?? lol
     
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  15. kot

    kot Administrator
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    @TheBigCat - yes, present it in any order/way you want. I have done it one after another, not presented three at the same time

    @TroyDASH - there was no other options at that time. T&C logo proposal did not even exist, so they are providing accurate data. To be clear - I am not saying which proposal is better to me. I will keep it to myself.

    @toknormal - people like our families and friends are critical in this exercise. We are geeks and nerds, who are emotionally attached to the project, brand and mission. However our goal is to convince average person to use Dash, we don't have to be convinced. Branding creates a very first impression and this first impression is really important, therefore I have asked you to test it with people outside of the crypto space
     
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  16. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    @kot The O&M study was fine for their own internal purpose in deciding which logo *they* were going to propose, but it does not help us with the decision *we* are making right now. It is being presented as if it is relevant, but it isn't. This would have been so much easier to decide if there was a third party not affiliated with either side, to conduct a study between O&M, T&C, and the current logo, including questions that are relevant to both O&M and T&C's key goals. I don't know which one you favor yourself, but if you favor the O&M one, I think the failure to go out and do this might be the reason it doesn't get voted in.
     
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  17. toknormal

    toknormal Guest

    @kot The logo isn't what will convince the average person to use Dash. IMO you are mixing up two distinct but important aspects of the evolution of the project. I will list what I think the reasons are in each case in order of their importance:

    1. Why will people use Dash ?

    • deflationary asset seekers (Store of value people will use it, traders less so)
    • hedging performance in the cryptocurrency space (Bitcoin/Precious metal holders will use it to hedge their risks)
    • commercial trading performance (bartering partners will use Dash for immediate exchange)

    2. How will a logo provide value to Dash ?

    • future investors will value its continuity as a measure of the asset's stability (since its "community backed")
    • commercial vendors will use it it as a point of recognition
    • the community will use it as a symbol of identity

    None of these justify an arbitrary ditching of the commercial identity and nobody can judge objectively "what works" because in times of change what works is what's confident. Remember the Sex Pistols ? They could barely play guitar but became a brand. English bands used to sing with American accents to get airplay, then one day some of them started singing in London accents and became legends.

    The only consistency in all of this is the confidence of the community in what symbolically represents them.

    It has to work for them, not their families and not wine swilling graphic artists.
     
    #227 toknormal, Mar 25, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2018
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  18. kot

    kot Administrator
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    @TroyDASH I partially agree with you and partially not. My afraid is that by the time when the survey for us with 3 logos would be finished, we would have 10 new propositions and endless loop started.
    I think that we will never be able to satisfy everyone, as different people have different tastes, sensitivity and preferences. Therefore I fully rely on decision of MN network - I trust they will ultimately select what is the best for the project.

    @toknormal - I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote. Logo is not going to convince anyone. I have mentioned about the first impression only.
     
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  19. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    Kot is not suggesting the views of your family and friends is scientific. He is simply presenting an exercise that will, in all likelihood, challenge your own preconceived ideas of what looks good and bad. Hopefully, if MNOs do this, they can then concentrate on what's best for the network rather than hanging on to nostalgia.

    Also, there's no need to get hung up on color schemes and gradients. For example, I have distributed many dash t-shirts, some of which are blue on orange - and it looks great! - but where does it say we must use orange? There's nothing wrong with the monochrome version of O&M, nor is there anything wrong with people putting their own stamp on it; "official" colors or something completely different. Just don't get caught up in the detail.
     
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  20. toknormal

    toknormal Guest

    Ok, @kot I appreciate you are concerned about first impressions. That is partly your job in which you have a professional role that I respect.

    However, first impressions are meaningless when it come to logos because they can symbolise whatever people see in them which has more to do with the integrity of the project and community than their "first impressions". So we have 2 choices:

    • be guided by the current prejudices of our future market
    • be guided by what we know and have worked with so far

    In my opinion the second of these two options is far more powerful because when cryptocurrency hits mainstream, people will want to be lead. They won't want to be asked their opinion on anything. They'll want confident guidance that TELLS them what to do rather than nervous, uncertain communities that are unsure of their identity and have to ask their families what their logo should be.

    Like I said, we don't have a choice. Our project is what it is. The community is what it is. We already solicitated a brand identity, accepted it, worked with it and achieved many successes with it. We need to consolidate that identity, not ditch it.

    Substantial rebranding is a denial that all that happened and will be priced in as such by future markets.
     
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  21. mastermined

    mastermined Active Member

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    I want to keep the Dash "D" as a logo no matter what. It's a D with a dash in it and works perfectly on many levels. I think we should use the O&M logo as well depending on the situation. For most things you can use them both at the same time like in my photo.
    I also like our current font as it is tilted slightly forward making yet another play on Dash moving forward. It may need more of a forward tilt with slightly thinner font and some color variation but I think it is fine for now. Looks like both the current props will fail so we need to decide on a basic design, vote, and move on. Let it be a living logo worked on in the background by interested parties with periodic community updates.

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. Kanuuker

    Kanuuker New Member

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    I think we need to be careful in selling our soul in order to gain acceptance. Would you agree to remove privatesend if it led to greater adoption? Allow a means for the government to have a element of control because it would make people feel safer?
     
  23. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    If it was held to vote and won, would you go against it?
     
  24. Kanuuker

    Kanuuker New Member

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    I would walk away from Dash in a heartbeat if privatesend was removed or if a government access point was created, yes. I won't abandon ship over a logo change though.
     
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  25. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    That's fine, a lot of people would. But you was trying to relate a governance decision to "selling our soul", and the next minute you said you wouldn't abandon ship over a logo.. so I'm confused to what you was actually referring to.
     
  26. Kanuuker

    Kanuuker New Member

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    No, I just said we need to be careful in giving up to much to gain market share.
     
  27. DAOMN

    DAOMN Member

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    At 1:25:39, Fernando is envisioning what will happen: "I'm happy with messy discussions".
     
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  28. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    I did the asking thing, and this is what I got:

    Female female male male
    O&M T&C O&M T&C
    2 3 0 3

    I still haven't voted. This is getting pretty heated :( Anyway, that's what I got so far :) I gave them two pictures with the different options I put into a single picture, and said it was for a money service that would be similar to Paypal and Mastercard, which one feels right to you for such a company? I did not explain the philosophy behind the submissions.

    These were emails I sent out, and responses I got back.
     
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  29. CarlosTrujillo

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    Dash Address:
    Xi7AmnKhSMtRAat7jcb9SZu2ABP96XEcyR
    We must continue innovating to obtain better results. Thus, the brand is renewed and also adapts to modern design trends. But yes, I support Damian, we must preserve the essence of the logo.
     
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  30. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    How did I miss this? I can't stop laughing!!!!
     
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