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Contacted by FBI

Discussion in 'Official Announcements' started by fernando, Jul 8, 2017.

  1. CryptoUS

    CryptoUS New Member

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    TOTALLY concur with the decision not to sit down with the FBI. Let them burn their own cycles 'educating' themselves to Dash.
     
  2. gshenusa

    gshenusa New Member

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    Good call DASH Team (Y)
     
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  3. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    I had a second thought about this... Wouldn't it be good to keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

    Having no further contact means you have no further hints as to what they're interested in knowing, or any hints about anything they may discover. You can be damn sure the most corrupt and evil rogue government entity on Earth is not going to openly share any exploit it might find... But, if you hang around being friendly, you might pick up a hint...

    The questions asked always belie a motive... Why not listen? Even if all you do is recite an answer from TFM they could have R themselves... You haven't given them anything that wasn't already there, so you didn't lose anything, but did gain something for listening... The worst thing you do is waste a little time.

    Wherever there is a need for "that guy," I'm always the first to raise my hand... :p Give them the guy that makes them uncomfortable.
     
    #33 camosoul, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
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  4. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    If you watch this video - which has been posted in another thread on this forum - @ 7 mins, you'll see how successful organisations who have had regulatory issues have learned to have a friendly and open approach with regulators. (I.e. 'It's hard to hate close up')

    Worth a rethink then perhaps @fernando ?

     
  5. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Your faith in your rifle is futile. Winner or loser, you will end as dust, soil, skull and bones.
    Better have faith in something that may help you escape from the skulls and bones fate.

    Furthermore you buy your rifle with money. They have more money, so more rifles. Having faith in your rifle under such circumstancies is not wise. The best you can do is to have faith in a new form of money, to convince people to start using your money instead of theirs, so that their money will become obsolete, and that way turn them unable to buy unlimited rifles and attack you.

     
    #35 demo, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  6. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Yeah. Nice thought.
    Ask them, who or what are they searching for:

    Those who do not comply with aml/kyc?
    Those who carry rifles?
    Those who are giving universal dividend and create a new money faith?

    Who or what are they searching for? Is it some of the above, all of the above or none of the above?

    But @fernando, do not compromise, do NOT have friendly and open approach with such "regulators", and do not come into agreement with them.
    This attitude will not create a new money faith, and your money will be absorved by theirs.
     
    #36 demo, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  7. fernando

    fernando Powered by Dash
    Dash Core Team Foundation Member Moderator

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    I'm quite convinced that not having any relation with FBI is the way to go. Remember FBI is not a regulator, is law enforcement.
     
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  8. stan.distortion

    stan.distortion Active Member

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    Only if you insist on all discussions being recorded and the recordings made freely available ;)

    It does need some serious consideration though, at the mo it's law enforcement trying to get a handle on cryptocurrencies because of their potential use for criminal activity but we're fast heading towards governments trying to do the same before they find themselves unable to collect taxes. Most would probably agree with the same approach, let them figure it out for themselves or, more likely, pay someone to do the job for them.

    So on the one hand we have the FBI making use of things like blockchain data mining services and the logical progression of governments using commercial blockchain solutions specialists to solve their taxation problems. On the other hand law enforcement could be actively engaging with the community (that might sound stupid but Camo just applied for the job and many more would likely volunteer if helping them with understanding crypto could also mean helping them understand the difference between 'wrong' and 'unlawful') and the same communities helping governments understand their problems with taxation.

    Anyone questioning why the hell anyone would want to help tax gatherers should instead question their perspective on taxes, anyone in their right mind would question them as they are but very few would question them if they where applied correctly and who would you trust more to figure out the right way of applying them, the communities that worked out cryptocurrencies or the usual companies governments turn to for financial solutions?
     
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  9. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    Maybe so... (semantically) - However, law enforcement = government = regulators etc. etc..

    That said however, I do totally respect your view.

    Cheers.
     
  10. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    That is a distinction without a difference, but does not play to the issue at hand.

    You hold no cards to give them. So, you can't lose anything by associating with them.

    Which means the circumstance can have only:

    1) nothing
    2) helpful results, even if vanishingly minor

    Look at it this way... When other tentacles of the great beast that is government start talking shit about DASH, you'll have this "close relationship" with the FBI... "They" can't make up bullshit, or the FBI would be on the hook for not ever having done anything about "the problem" prior. The FBI will have to cover their asses by calling out the FUD. This is the only time you can actually win against government; forcing it to call itself out. The only way "out" would be to declare the FBI hopelessly incompetent, may as well dismantle the whole agency...

    So...

    No possible negative because all your cards are already on the table. All you can really give them is a guided tour of what is already there.
    By being friendly, you're essentially recruiting them as a future advocate by their own request... They would be in a position where they had to refute future FUD on your behalf, or look like complete fools.

    My initial reaction was out of hate for their very existence... But even I can admit there are potential advantages with no possible downside...

    Dipshit Politician: "DASH IS INTERNET DEVIL MONEY!!! TERRORISM! RACISM!"
    DASH: "The FBI doesn't seem to think so. We've been hanging out for a while..."

    That looks a lot better than

    Dipshit Politician: "DASH IS INTERNET DEVIL MONEY!!! TERRORISM! RACISM!"
    DASH: "Nuh UH!!! Cult of Evan is not Cult of Evan!"

    With so many dipshit politicians and talking heads making asses of themselves in exactly this fashion, you could ride the "cried wolf" effect, too...

    I wouldn't trust the FBI any further than I could throw it. I hate the shit out of them. I'd like to see them all get nuked. But, you don't have any cards up your sleeve... It's all open source, so what could you lose? They love to say "If you have nothing to hide..." And since you don't have anything to hide, you can play that game and still not lose...

    You could even make press releases directly to them, keeping them up to date on advancements... It's totally useless, but they're the ones that asked, and it looks good...

    It seems like a missed opportunity now that I think about it.
     
    #40 camosoul, Aug 29, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
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  11. Warangy

    Warangy New Member

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    I like transparency...good one.
     
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  12. Plima

    Plima New Member

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    Any further developments on this story?
     
  13. dark_wanderer

    dark_wanderer Member

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    Any idea of how many masternodes are being run by FBI?

    I think they will try to develop an analysis and deanonymization tool. For instance, based on potentially weak mixing and spending habits I described yesterday in Support.
     
  14. Rasmus Allikas

    Rasmus Allikas New Member

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  15. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    How is it possible to know that? Do you think the agents will reveal themselves?
    You can only understand whether someone is an agent, by the way he votes into the budget system.

    I think you should try to develop an analysis tool for voting behavior, along with a proof of individuality (of course!). in order to spot (and marginalize) the agents.
     
    #45 demo, Sep 12, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  16. Slake

    Slake New Member

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    Dang, this really makes you paranoid.
     
  17. solarguy

    solarguy Active Member

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    Well, not to push the paranoid lever too hard, but you don't have to be involved with Dash or other cryptocurrencies for our friends in law enforcement and other agencies to take an interest in your activities and monitor you in earnest.

    Of course, everyone knows about Edward Snowden and his revelations. But few know about William Binney, who I think revealed even darker things. I give you....project Stellar Wind:

    Short version:
    Longer version:

    TL/DR: they collect everything, on everybody, all the time.
     
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  18. Tickle

    Tickle New Member

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    Well played sir, well played.
     
  19. Coqui33

    Coqui33 Member
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    Please accept my belated approval of your declining to meet with law enforcement officers (LEOs). A half-dozen primers are required reading in LEO academies. (The most entertaining is "Arresting Communication" by Jim Glennon.) All such courses teach that leading a target to self-incrimination is an efficient means of evidence-gathering. To this end, the LEO first asks the target to "help" or to "teach" the LEO. Only after establishing a friendly open teacher-learner relationship should the target then be led into making more and more self-incriminating statements.

    Clearly, this is the approach that federal LEOs are taking with you. Make no mistake. LEOs do not initiate contact to "learn" or to "seek help". They do NOT get merit increases or promotions by making friends. Their careers depend SOLELY on their ability to collect evidence.
     
    #49 Coqui33, Nov 21, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  20. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    hmmm....I wonder how many they have collected, for all of us.
     
  21. Hashchain

    Hashchain New Member

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    I am learning that the Dash community is the best I have participated in to date. Learning so much daily!
     
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  22. UltimateCrypto

    UltimateCrypto Active Member

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    In as much as, no country as Integrated cryptocurrency to the system but try to adopt it in a different way. For example Ecobank Ghana, Africa have digital platform like mobile banking app and Masterpass using the QR code system.

    Dash Digital was also incepted before them. We have to integrate it with pubilicity and massive adoption. Get an office to serve as intermediate between the people and exchanges.

    I tell you Government would start adopt dash digital to pay for projects as it is the best as compared to the traditional way where evaluation becomes difficult.
     
  23. CoinVersus

    CoinVersus New Member

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    Crazy, Thank You!
     
  24. Rebecca Jones

    Rebecca Jones New Member

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    Good Call. Very diplomatic way of handling this issue
     
  25. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Some people like diplomacy, to put two feet in one shoe.
    Some other like straight answers.
     
  26. strophy

    strophy Administrator
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    Great to see this question asked in an appropriate thread. Out of curiosity, which other privacy-oriented crypto projects have warrant canaries? DNN claimed "almost all", but my brief research didn't turn up any. Our friend fluffy of the Monero project rejected the idea here, asking "What would a warrant canary actually prevent?". I would repeat that question to you.

    To my knowledge, warrant canaries have never been tested in court, and likely would not stand up to scrutiny. They are already illegal in Australia. Taking down a notice that you haven't received a secret warrant and stating that you have received a secret warrant amount to the same thing, so the only thing to be tested in court is whether e.g. a FISA judge can compel you to lie. It only works once (the canary is dead after the first secret warrant) and it does not reveal any information about the nature of the request. Reddit had a warrant canary that was removed, and everybody pretty much just shrugged and realised it didn't help them in any way. Wouldn't it be a more efficient use of resources to have a talented legal team to fight the warrant?

    Finally, Dash Core does not hold any information on users of Dash. The treasury system is transparent and the votes are on the blockchain. Transactions are transparent and on the blockchain. The source code is transparent on GitHub. I think the very nature of many crypto projects (and Bitcoin-derived projects with an MIT license) is that the very few centralised entities that may exist simply do not have access to any confidential information worthy of a secret warrant. Hence no need for a warrant canary - we should leave this fight to the EFF defending centralised institutions like Google that actually hold and have access to this sort of information.
     
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  27. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    I dont know about cryptocurrencies, but many sites have warrant canaries. https://canarywatch.org/

    A warrant canary is usefull for the masternode owners in order to protect themselves and keep their identity secret, especially in case the coin allows TOR network and true annonymity (this is not the DASH case of course, but other cryptos, like PIVX, allow TOR to its masternodes). Monero on the other hand is not a governed coin, has no masternodes, so the canary is not usefull for Monero. The few persons that govern monero, bitcoin, ethereum (or any other non governed coin) are probably already known to the agents.

    A canary is certainly usefull for DASH, and usefull for whatever else cryptocurrency is governed by many people. Many people participate in the decisions, the decisions could be against the interests of the agents, so the agents would like to know the physical persons that took these decisions.

    In that case, a canary is very-very usefull, NOT in front of a court (who cares about damned courts and lawyers anyway?), but just in order to inform the masternode owners that something bad is going on. So that they will sell their masternodes, leave the community, and thus protect themselves as individuals.

    Of course, many people suspect that it is futile to hope that a court will support a canary case. We should expect that the canary may also be lying to us. Which means that the canary should be someone who the community trusts, an elected person. So let us elect the canary. Let us also pay the canary for its services. And then write a smart contract, and in case the canary is proved lying (a community vote may took place in order to confirm that), it will lose a vast amount (or even all) of his own money.
     
    #57 demo, Feb 21, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  28. solarguy

    solarguy Active Member

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    The last several legal opinions I read suggested Warrant Canaries are likely illegal in the US, and may not do what you think they do. If they can compel you to not tell you have been served (and they can), they can also compel you to not remove your warrant canary. It is better to assume every website and every digital community is being monitored all the time.
     
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  29. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Yet, you can still find places where warrant canaries are legal. Stop being so US centric. There are other places on earth, where a canary could live.

    Nobody can compel you to talk.
    The canary statement could be voice recorded.
    And the recorded voice could be timestamped in the blockchain and biometricaly checked that it belongs to the elected canary-person. (I am against biometrics, but in the case of canary lets do an exception)
     
    #59 demo, Feb 21, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  30. strophy

    strophy Administrator
    Dash Core Team Dash Support Group Moderator

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    Dash Core Group, Inc. has no knowledge of the identity of masternode owners. The rest of your arguments build on this false premise, and are therefore also invalid.
     

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