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Pre-Proposal: Would you like this proof of individuality to be implemented in Dash?

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by demo, Jul 25, 2017.

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Would you like this proof of individuality to be implemented in Dash?

  1. yes

    33.3%
  2. no

    66.7%
  3. other

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    The proof of individuality idea is supported by a few people and very few are aware of it as a concept.
    <vote history>
    Would you like a proof of individuality for the Dash community?
    *yes 3 vote(s) 16.7%
    no 12 vote(s) 66.7%
    other 1 vote(s) 5.6%
    Proof of potato(e). 2 vote(s) 11.1%
    </vote history>

    The proof of individuality is usefull for several reasons, this one included.


    I would like to know your opinion about the below specific implementation of the proof of individuality, and maybe if it gets popular to add a proposal for it, in order similar meetings to get funded by the dash budget system.
    This is a preproposal. In case it gets enough yes votes and be able to find the 5 dash proposal fee, it will be added in the budget system in order for the dash community to fund similar proof of individuality meetings.
     
    #1 demo, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  2. Pietro Speroni

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    Hello @demo . I am sorry but I do not understand the proof of individuality you are proposing. As soon as I understand it I will cast my vote :) .
    I am in favour that each person votes only once. But to avoid making confusion I shall probably start another thread with my suggestion.
     
  3. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    This proof of individuality proposal is an answer to your below question.

    I tried to explain it as simple as I could. The fact that you dont understand it (and obviously others dont understand it too) is maybe because I have not added some url links to some of the terms I am using. If you dont understand parts of my proposal, please elaborate. I will try to explain it further.

    <vote history>
    Would you like this proof of individuality to be implemented in Dash?
    *yes 1 vote(s) 100.0%
    no 0 vote(s) 0.0%
    other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
    </vote history>
     
    #3 demo, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  4. Pietro Speroni

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    The suggestion is this, if I understand it:

    You will not attend the cryptoparty with your private keys! You participate by having several empty_wallets (their public keys) printed in QRcode. During the cryptoparty (which takes place in a closed door room where nobody is allowed to leave until the procedure ends) everyone puts one QRcode wallet in an envelope and then the envelope into a physical ballot box. Then all the wallets are extracted from the ballot box, they are counted, scanned, added in a digital list, and their number is expected of course to be found equal to the number of the attendees. If someone objects that the list of wallets is not equal to the number of attendees, or if he claims that his wallet is not into the list, then the voting is repeated, and until nobody objects (due to the possibility of voting repetition, everyone should have more than one printed QRcode wallets pre-created, so that he can re-vote in case an objection occurs). Finally, when there is no objection, everyone receives the final list of the valid wallets, the door opens and the cryptoparty finishes. All the wallets that are contained in the final valid list, can be considered now as a proof of individuality, that can be used online in the internet. And as long as every single attendee is allowed to object, this is considered as a decentralized (and unanimous) process, isn't it?

    It seems very complicated, because it requires everybody to travel to a certain location. Plus you cannot have people join or leave the group which is something that happens all the time among masternodes. So if this is the solution I would vote no just out of the fact the solution is too complicated. Plus if all the masternode owners are in one room that would be very unsafe for the Dash community, right?
     
  5. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    Demo is a massive time-waster.

    ....

    If you're so desperate to match up everyone's individual identity, why don't you go on Facebook or Instagram?

    (I'm sure you'd be happier there..... please go.)
     
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  6. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    You dont need to travel to a certain location, if the cryptoparty is combined with some sort of universal dividend. A universal dividend similar to what @amanda_b_johnson already did. Similar but not identical, as long as my version requires physical presence and offers anonymity to the attendees. The masternode owner could secretly fund and organize such a cryptoparty in his own town, and hide among ordinary people who are asking their first dash wallet. As I said:
    Plus, concurrent cryptoparties around the world may occur. So you only need to find the closest to you cryptoparty to attend. As I said:

    You can leave the masternodes group. Using your proof of individuality, you sign the masternodes. So if you dont own the masternode anymore, your signature is invalid.Or if later on you buy a masternode, you can sign it . As I said:

    They are not in the same room for sure.

    Vote yes. I really need the third vote.

    <vote history><-- why vote history is usefull?
    Would you like this proof of individuality to be implemented in Dash?
    *yes 2 vote(s) 100.0%
    no 0 vote(s) 0.0%
    other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
    </vote history>
     
    #6 demo, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  7. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    My proposal is about individual identity AND anonymity (the AND is a logical and).
    Anomymity is not facebook's or instagram's property. Au contraire , anonymity is prohibitted in these sites.

    As I said:
     
    #7 demo, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  8. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    Demo, why don't you fork Dash and create the version you truly desire.

    If it's good, you will have a cryptocoin, exactly to your specification.

    People who agree with you will follow you.

    (Good luck.)
     
  9. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    It is not only a fork's issue.
    I also need servers, in order to support a cryptocoin.
    Servers are costly.

    And who will support this idea?
    It is only me and @GrandMasterDash at the moment.
     
    #9 demo, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  10. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    Maybe you could do an ICO?
     
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  11. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    This idea is not about Initial Coin Offer or about a universal dividend (although I am a universal dividend proponent)

    This idea is about proof of individuality. In order to incetivize people to attend the cryptoparty meeting, you have to incentivize them with some real money, so an established currency (like dash) is more approriate for this purpose.

    I posted a reference to this idea to pivx forum and I am planning to add a preproposal there too.
     
    #11 demo, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  12. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    There are other crypto currencies like Dash. Have u considered Pivx?

    @demo , maybe you would get more traction for your ideas there because it's a younger project, with a smaller community and a much more affordable coin.
     
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  13. Pietro Speroni

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    if you need the third vote to start coding, I would rather have you code the vote by number (and take the median). Which instead is really important, and I am sure someone will use sooner or later.
     
  14. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Vote the numbers is an extremely important issue, thats why I always have it in my signature.
    Do you want a dash fork, that allows the masternodes to be able to vote the numbers?
     
  15. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    @demo That just gave me a great idea. We can Code with Numbers. Every line of the dash codebase can be put to a vote with multiple choice options, use proof of individuality to vote and the mode average prevails.
     
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  16. Pietro Speroni

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    remember that the result will be the condorcet winner only if the votes are independent.
     
  17. Pietro Speroni

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    yes. And the miners too (on each block they put their votes and the system extracts the last x votes; x voted by the masternodes). And the miners and the masternode together if necessary (just in case).

    And this is just the beginning ... :cool:
     
  18. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    This does not work. Vote the numbers is just a component of the knowledge tree. The knowledge tree is primarily and above all a logical tree. Logic is not established by voting the sentences of a serial logical text. Logic is established through interdependant polls. The serial logical text is extracted from these intedepentant polls.

    Here is an example where two logical sentences are considered logical if seen separately.

    Lets go to bed <-- seems logical if seen separately
    Lets wear our shoes <-- seems logical if seen separately

    But if those two logical sentences are sequential inside a serial logical text, the result is irrational:

    Lets go to bed. Lets wear our shoes. <---irrational, nobody wears shoes in bed.

    The irrationality appears due to the interdependacy.

    Here is a desciption of the knowledge tree, I wrote:
     
    #18 demo, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
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  19. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    The miners issue turns complicate for my coding capabilities.
    For the beginning I will try to focus in the governance system, and just give to the masternodes the ability to vote not only (yes/no/abstain) but also numbers.
    This is much more easy to code.

    <vote history>
    Would you like this proof of individuality to be implemented in Dash?
    * yes 2 vote(s) 66.7%
    no 1 vote(s) 33.3%
    other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
    </vote history>
     
    #19 demo, Jul 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
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  20. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Some questions regarding the protocol of this proof of individuality procedure have been answered here.

    Let me copy paste them here also:

    The guy who is the owner of several masternodes and wants to hide has to pay his puppets more than the universal dividend. Otherwise why the puppets to give them their wallet? Do you think you can find someone who can pay the people more than the universal dividend? I dont think so! And how many puppets can he pay? He has to be very very rich in order for his sybil attack to have a real impact, but if he so rich then in that case he owns the cryptocurrency anyway! Of course everything depends on how big the dividend is. Offering a decent dividend is not only a philanthropy, it is also a safety measure in order to prevent the coin for being compromised. And lets suppose that someone succeds in his sybil Attack and manages to buy many proof of individuality. What is the real impact? All his puppets will vote identicaly, so the statistics will still reveal that they are puppets! And he owns those proof of individuality not forever but until the next cryptoparty, which whenever it happens (for example after 2 years) will result in paying the puppets again.

    "Nobody can leave" means that if someone leaves, the procedure is repeated! Leaving in the middle of the procedure is considered as a type of objection. And It is not an endless loop of objections. If someone objects too many times, they can throw him out of the room! The proof of individuality remains for those who are inside the room. Of course the one who is out of the room will sign that the cryptoparty was not appropriate. And the rest cryptoparties that occur simultaneously around the globe, they will judge the testimony of the persecuted accordingly, and sign or not sign the cryptoparty where this incident occured. There can be a camera in every cryptoparty after all, as long as people can be masked! If such an incident occurs, and before throwing the guy out of the room, the attendees can wear their masks and open the camera, for the incident to be recorded live and for the other cryptoparties to see and judge whats going on.

    It may look like "eyes wide shut" but it may also look like this.
    [​IMG]
     
    #20 demo, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  21. jimbursch

    jimbursch Active Member

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    What prevents someone from attending several crypto parties, thus creating several "individuals"?
     
  22. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    Yep... and what about gate crashers?

    Maybe we could have some masked 'bouncers' for security.

    (Hmmm... but who's gonna watch the watchers I wonder...?)

    Any ideas @demo ??
     
  23. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    All cryptoparties occur concurrently. It is like the elections day. It is impossible to be in two places at the same time!
     
    #23 demo, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  24. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    In case someone crashes the door then the cryptoparty is obiously canceled as invalid.
    The solution is not masked bouncers but rather rooms where the door cannot be crashed.
    A cryptoparty may elect its trusted watchers which mission will be to attend other cryptoparties at the day the next concurrent cryptoparties will take place again (normaly the concurrent cryptoparties may occur every 2 or 4 years)
     
    #24 demo, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
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  25. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    Fabulous!
     
  26. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Additionaly there is no reason for a group of people to want to crash the door of a cryptoparty.
    They can create their own concurrent cryptoparty in another room, so for what reason they want to crash the door?
     
  27. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    They could be working for the Feds... or they could be archons (or some shit like that.)
     
  28. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    There is nothing illegal in the proof of individuality concurrent cryptoparties, so the feds are not legalized to crash the door. However the feds can show their credentials to the attendees and then attend the party as individuals, and confirm that nothing illegal occurs during the proof of individuality procedure.
     
    #28 demo, Aug 6, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  29. Super8

    Super8 Active Member

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    The Feds could attend undercover upon the basis of mere suspicion of illegality alone. They would need to provide no further justification.

    Perhaps the individual agent may not want to blow his (or her) individual cover, and yet still announce their affiliation with the FBI...so perhaps they could reveal that they are from the FBI, by all promising to wear the anonymous mask from "V"and to flash a picture of J.Edgar Hoover when asked for their credentials.

    Surely, this would be a workable remedy to this urgent problem?
     
  30. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Let the feds do whatever they want. There is no problem whatever they decide to do.

    The only problem is when someone crashes the door and many people enter the room after the procedure has started. In that case the proof of individuality prodedure is canceled and has to be repeated.

    But this is impossible to happen, because normal people have no reason to crash the door and the feds are not legalized to do that.
     
    #30 demo, Aug 6, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017

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