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Pre-Proposal: Would you like to be able to vote with number?

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by demo, Jun 2, 2016.

?

Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?

  1. yes

    15.8%
  2. no

    73.7%
  3. other

    7.0%
  4. yes, but only for the median average

    3.5%
  1. dashly

    dashly Member

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    I have changed my vote from "Yes" to "No". Yes, I think voting with numbers would add a lot of value, but as pointed out by this discussion, average is flawed. Median would be the only acceptable solution for me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    I'm going to be fair to @demo this time..

    This whole "vote by number" thing is a half-measure version of the budget system I had proposed initially; which included rate and proportionality variables, among a few other features.

    It's not that "vote by number" is necessarily bad. The issue is that, if not accompanied by a handful of other features, the raw "vote by numbers" concept becomes an even more obtuse instrument than what we already have.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Change it back to "yes". There are three average types. The mean, the median and the mode. They are all included in the poll question.

    But if you hate the mean average, I can add you a poll option that says "yes only for the median average" and go vote yes. So tell me if you want a poll option to be added.

    <vote history>
    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?
    *yes 5 vote(s) 10.4%
    no 39 vote(s) 81.3%
    other 4 vote(s) 8.3%
    </vote history>
     
  4. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    The logic decides what are the bounds. The electorate must be rational. This is the most important prerequisite. Democracy can stand only among rational beeings. You cannot have democracy with monkeys who vote randomly and irrationaly.

    The question of the poll says "average". There are 3 types of average the mean , the mode and the median. So I dont need to change anything, unless you are tottaly against the mean average. In that case ask me and I will add a poll option saying, "yes only for the median average"
     
    #94 demo, Apr 27, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  5. dashly

    dashly Member

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    Average is usually referencing mean. Sure, add an option for median and it will get my vote. Mean and mode are both too flawed for this type of voting.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    You forgot to mention a very important property of the mean average. In case of polarization, the mean average respects the minorities, the median average does not (because the median average always gives the result to the biggest block, so the median average is a selection process prone towards the tyranny of the majority).

    So whichever community desires to protect its minorities, that community should select the mean average as the preferable selection process. And this is a rational decision. All of us we are individuals, and an individual is always a minority in some issues or in some other. If you want to protect yourself as an individual, then you should decide to protect the minorities also. In order to achieve this, the mean average should be decided to be the most loved selection process. The mean average works because in our universe everything we know is bounded in practice, so the mathematical hypothesis that the mean average voting will lead the votes to infinity is invalid. In practice there is always a maximum and a minimum that can be defined and thus bound the mean average and prevent infinity votes.

    The median average is a human invention, it is a mathematical invention. The mean average is selected by the universe, our universe works by using the mean average. The wisdom of the universe is more powerfull than the human wisdom.
     
    #96 demo, May 3, 2017
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  7. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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  8. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    For the reference, I copy-paste here a scientific experiment that investigates the stability of the mean average compared to the median average whenever a number vote (on a rolling base) occurs, and some votes go off-line (then on-line) randomly. In the message I fixed some typo from the original author, and marked them with red.

    <vote history><-- why vote history is usefull?
    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?
    *yes 5 vote(s) 10.2%
    no 38 vote(s) 77.6%
    other 4 vote(s) 8.2%
    yes, but only for the median average 2 vote(s) 4.1%
    </vote history>
     
    #98 demo, May 20, 2017
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  9. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    In bitshares they decided to have both governance and to vote the numbers.

    And now watch their graph in coinmarketcap.

    https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares/
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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  11. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    @UdjinM6 who coded the votes as enumeration? The votes as enumeration first appeared in 12.1 version and they remain as that in 12.2 too. This does not facilitate someone to code the numerical voting functionality for the (non stupid) Masternodes owners to be able to use. Au contraire, this code change raises a huge obstacle (especially for amateurs like me)

    To solve this I may do this:

    enum vote_outcome_enum_t {
    VOTE_OUTCOME_NONE = 0,
    VOTE_OUTCOME_YES = 1,
    VOTE_OUTCOME_NO = 2,
    VOTE_OUTCOME_ABSTAIN = 3,
    VOTE_OUTCOME_NUMBER =4
    };

    Whenever a masternode vote outcome is casted (for example) as 15 , I will add 4 to the vote, make it 19, then when calculate the result I will substract 4 and make it 15 again. Or shall I use another code structure different than the enumeration? And how this structure can support the granularity I need? Numerical voting requires real numbers, not integers.

    What do you suggest? Could you fix this, could you change this vote_outcome_enum_t to another class that may in the future support numerical voting? Have a look at the old structure (before 12.1). Straightforward isnt it? It was much more easy to get a numerical vote from a masternode that way. Why did you change this structure? Do you think that the spies entered into your mind (or into Evan's mind) and made you change this specific structure , in order to prevent numerical voting?
     
    #101 demo, Oct 22, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  12. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Hint: change "blob" to "blame" in url to see (some) related commits e.g. https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blame/v0.12.2.x/src/governance-vote.h#L19
    But it doesn't really matter who coded this - discuss/attack the idea, not the person. If you still need the person though - I merged it. You are welcome :)

    Old nodes won't recognize new votes with "4", so it's another major update anyway and thus I'd rather go with a bit cleaner/easier to codify structure like
    Code:
    // Note: keep votes values in sequence from min to max (no void places)
    enum vote_outcome_enum_t  {
        VOTE_OUTCOME_NONE           = -9999,
        VOTE_OUTCOME_NO_STRONG      = -2,
        VOTE_OUTCOME_NO_WEAK        = -1,
        VOTE_OUTCOME_NO             = -1,
        VOTE_OUTCOME_ABSTAIN        = 0,
        VOTE_OUTCOME_YES            = 1,
        VOTE_OUTCOME_YES_WEAK       = 1,
        VOTE_OUTCOME_YES_STRONG     = 2,
        // VOTE_OUTCOME_MIN            = VOTE_OUTCOME_NO_STRONG,
        // VOTE_OUTCOME_MAX            = VOTE_OUTCOME_YES_STRONG,
        VOTE_OUTCOME_MIN            = VOTE_OUTCOME_NO, // adjust this if NO range is extended
        VOTE_OUTCOME_MAX            = VOTE_OUTCOME_YES, // adjust this if YES range is extended
    }
    
    This is a small part of the actual code I proposed in dev channel back then. So, it would start with status quo (yes/no/abstain) and would allow a more or less smooth transition to limited num-like voting in the future. But as you can see from the discussion here on forum, there was not enough support for this kind of feature, so the code was abandoned.

    PS: this has nothing to do with "12.2 testing", moved
     
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  13. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    MNOs need to vote with bounded REAL NUMBERS. A limited num-like voting using integers is not very usefull. It does not offer the required granularity.
    Do you have any other idea of a c++ structure that may be used for real numbers and at the same time be compatible with the dash code you have already written ?
     
    #103 demo, Oct 22, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  14. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    I don't really agree that a lot of granularity is required but anyway... you don't need another structure - int is 4 bytes, you can fit any reasonable granularity there with some additional encoding/decoding.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Come on!!! You know how those things work, dont you? I will hire @amanda_b_johnson to advertise it, and then all stupid masternodes will want to vote the numbers.

    And where is the full code you proposed in the dev channel, back then?
    Is it open source or not? Can you give me a url that points to it?
     
    #105 demo, Oct 22, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Here is what I have https://pastebin.com/jBmA8G5F, it's not enough for migration but it's a start for code cleanup and some basic preparations.
     
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  17. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    I am planning to enable "vote the numbers" as a spork.
    Is the number of sporks limited?
    Am I allowed by the code to assign a new spork number dedicated to the "vote the numbers" functionality?
     
  18. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    No limits, just pick the next one (15)
     
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  19. ScioMind

    ScioMind Member

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    He is. Click me.
     
  20. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Off course I am not an alt account. This is my only account in this forum, I have only 2 wallets, their address is in public view, and my whole crypto fortune is 1.5 Dash and 1.6 PIVX. I have not any other crypto, neither bitcoin, nor tezos, nor lightcoin, nor monero, nor decred. Nothing. Although I knew bitcoin and cryptos since the very beginning (2008), I am crypto-poor by choice.

    Here is my answer to your above allegations.
     
    #110 demo, Jan 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  21. ScioMind

    ScioMind Member

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    Go ahead and read his "answer" as well as the entire thread before it. In fact, read ALL of his posts. He just said he has a very small stake in Dash, which means he has no real vested interest, and yet spend an inordinate amount of time here. But that time is spent in attempts to create discord and his own immoral policies.
     
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  22. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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  23. vasazuzuhi

    vasazuzuhi New Member

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    <vote history>
    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?
    yes 8 vote(s)14.3%
    no 42 vote(s) 75.0%
    other 4 vote(s) 7.1%
    yes, but only for the median average 2 vote(s) 3.6%

    </vote history>


     

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