Pre-Proposal: Would you like to be able to vote with number?

Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?

  • Total voters
    56
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demo said:
If I post here a fork of the code, where number voting will be allowed to all MNO by using the mngovernance command, will you then change the poll result of this pre-proposal in favor of a "yes"?

As a sign of a good will, I am waiting for the third "yes" vote to be casted into the poll, in order for me to start hacking the code.

Most developers are paid in dash. I am paid in faith.
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bump
 
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GrandMasterDash said:
demo, voting by numbers already exists, it's available to anyone running a multiple number of servers... they can simply split their share of votes among their nodes.
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The proposal is not only "vote with numbers". It is also to extract the result as the average.
Even if you have multipe number servers and split their share of votes among your nodes, they all vote only yes/no in the budget, and not an average is extracted.
So, for example, you cannot implement the alternative budget system (which is only one of the many uses the number voting has)
 
demo said:
The proposal is not only "vote with numbers". It is also to extract the result as the average.
Even if you have multipe number servers and split their share of votes among your nodes, they all vote only yes/no in the budget, and not an average is extracted.
So, for example, you cannot implement the alternative budget system (which is only one of the many uses the number voting has)
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It's not going to work with averages because there are different ways of calculating it and not everyone is going to agree which is best
 
GrandMasterDash said:
It's not going to work with averages because there are different ways of calculating it and not everyone is going to agree which is best
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Of course there are different ways of calculating the result of a vote.
The key in order to select the winner method is: Each method in order to be selected should initialy respect its own method, then the most loved method is selected.

For example if you want the majority rule (50%+1) to be implemented as a decision rule, this must be supported by the majority of people. If you want strong majority (66%+1) to be implemented as a decision rule, this must be supported by 66%+1 of the people.

Not everyone is going to agree which is the best decision rule, but everyone should agree with the logic, and the logic says that if only 55% want the strong majority(66%+1) to be implemented, it is not logical to implement such a rule that do not respect itself.

So lets say we have several numerical votes (1,5,34,2,23). One method to decide is to extract the average (1+5+34+2+23) / 5 = 13. What other methods exist? Tell me an alternative method, and I will apply the above mentioned rule (marked in bold), in order to find the winner method.
 
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demo said:
Of course there are different ways of calculating the result of a vote.
The key in order to select the winner method is: Each method in order to be selected should initialy respect its own method, then the most loved method is selected.

For example if you want the majority rule (50%+1) to be implemented as a decision rule, this must be supported by the majority of people. If you want strong majority (66%+1) to be implemented as a decision rule, this must be supported by 66%+1 of the people.

Not everyone is going to agree which is the best decision rule, but everyone should agree with the logic, and the logic says that if only 55% want the strong majority(66%+1) to be implemented, it is not logical to implement such a rule that do not respect itself.

So lets say we have several numerical votes (1,5,34,2,23). One method to decide is to extract the average (1+5+34+2+23) / 5 = 13. What other methods exist? Tell me an alternative method, and I will apply the above mentioned rule (marked in bold), in order to find the winner method.
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The median, in your example, would be 5... but the mean is 13
 
GrandMasterDash said:
The median, in your example, would be 5... but the mean is 13
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And for what reason among this set of votes (1,2,5,23,34) the median(5) shoud be selected?
Is there a logic in that?
There is a logic in the mean, because the mean is used in the forces we can see in real nature.
 
demo said:
And for what reason among this set of votes (1,2,5,23,34) the median shoud be selected?
There is no logic in that.
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It's the middle number of the set... and your example shows why it's sometimes the better method because it eliminated the anomalies / spikes (23 and 34).
 
GrandMasterDash said:
It's the middle number of the set... and your example shows why it's sometimes the better method because it eliminated the anomalies / spikes (23 and 34).
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Why select the middle number? Does this set (1,1,1,55,56,56,56), where the median is 55, elimitates anomalies? It is not logic.

The mean elimitates anomalies and spikes, not the median.

So the mean is a rational method in order to decide, and the median is an irrational one. But I am not going to define what rational is, this is a subject to vote. Lets put the mean and the median methods in a vote, and let the best method wins. I am 100% sure the mean method will win the median method.

What other methods exist? Except the median method (which seams irrational), tell me another alternative method, and I will apply the rule (marked in bold), in order to find the winner method.

For the example purposes, you may use whatever set of number votes you wish.
 
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Using a median is a bad idea if the votes are likely to be extremely polarized (as in, very few people vote in the middle). Using a mean is a bad idea if the voting pattern has a more bell shaped curve and there are likely to be some extreme outliers
 
demo said:
Why select the middle number? Does this set (1,1,1,55,56,56,56), where the median is 55, elimitates anomalies? It is not logic.

The mean elimitates anomalies and spikes, not the median.

So the mean is a rational method in order to decide, and the median is an irrational one. But I am not going to define what rational is, this is a subject to vote. Lets put the mean and the median methods in a vote, and let the best method wins. I am 100% sure the mean method will win the median method.

What other methods exist? Except the median method (which seams irrational), tell me another alternative method, and I will apply the rule (marked in bold), in order to find the winner method.

For the example purposes, you may use whatever set of number votes you wish.
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Well, then there is mode average where the most common answer wins... from your last example, 1 and 56 are the most common so you'd need a way to decide on that... or accept both as true. The mean of all six numbers is 32.285714286 yet the mean of (1 + 56) / 2 = 28.5

With large sets, the median is quite good at getting rid of spikes. The mode is answering questions where commonality appears... for example, if three people said $56 was a good price, why should we cut it in half because of a few cheapskates?

HOWEVER, the point being made is not which average is the "best" because, as you can see, we could debate statistics all night and get nowhere. We can't vote on this because that voting process itself would also require a good selection process....

I'm not trying to knock your confidence when I say this, but the fact you didn't know these different types of averages, means you haven't yet learned or experienced enough to come to a substantive solution. If you studied statistics persistently as you did with this campaign of yours, you'd be a master statistician. And I meant that in good faith because education is important to everyone.
 
GrandMasterDash said:
HOWEVER, the point being made is not which average is the "best" because, as you can see, we could debate statistics all night and get nowhere. We can't vote on this because that voting process itself would also require a good selection process....
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This is exactly what you dont understand. If you accept the following bold rule as a logical one: Each selection process in order to be selected should initialy respect itself, then the most loved selection process is selected ...then you CAN vote for the best selection process, because the voting process in that case is also about to decide the required selection process....

For example, lets say we want to decide the best selection process for a specific set of number votes. What available methods do we have?

The mean average. The median average. What else? is there anything else? Lets say there is also the simple majority and the mode average.

If those are the candidates, then we put them in a vote and the best loved is selected. If majority is selected, it is not enough to be the best loved, it has to be voted also by 50%+1. This is the meaning of "the selection process respects itself".

And this is how the system converges. This can also be simulated as a "double vote", where someone casts a vote of the type <number, selection process>.
(actually the correct vote is a "triple vote" <number, selection process, minimum participation percentage> but I will explain this later on.)
 
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TroyDASH said:
Using a median is a bad idea if the votes are likely to be extremely polarized (as in, very few people vote in the middle). Using a mean is a bad idea if the voting pattern has a more bell shaped curve and there are likely to be some extreme outliers
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I didnt ask you when the methods turn good or bad. I asked you to list methods. This does not prevent for anyone to first personnaly check the voting pattern and then decide his desirable method, if this is what he wants. This is also acceptable, it is part of the games theory.

We currently have the mean average and the median average method, as proposed candidate methods in order to extract a result from a set of number votes..

Is there any other desired method?

I am asking this because I am planning to put an example vote, in order for people to be able to select the desired method that is going to be used for extracting results from a number voting. We can put a vote and decide the method as long as we all agree with the following rule, which is a rule of logic: Each method in order to be selected should initialy respect itself, then the most loved method is selected.

So lets list the candidate methods, and I ll put the vote for you to understand better the example, in practice. Do you want me to put the mode also? Is there any other that someone wants?
 
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demo said:
I didnt ask when the methods turn good or bad. I asked you to list methods. We currently have the mean average and the median average method, as proposed candidate methods in order to extract a result from a set of number votes..

Is there any other desired method?

I am asking this because I am planning to put an example vote, in order for people to be able to select the desired method that is going to be used for extracting results from a number voting. We can put a vote and decide the method as long as we all agree with the following rule, which is a rule of logic: Each method in order to be selected should initialy respect itself, then the most loved method is selected.

So lets list the candidate methods, and I ll put the vote for you to understand better the example, in practice.
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It can't be done like that... there are three basic types of average (median, mean and mode) but sits within the larger subject of statistics as a whole, which is not your field of expertise. Another reason why it will never work is because the current system, while not perfect, is deemed good enough. That's why crypto is such a hard sell, because the current fiat system is "good enough" for most people... however flawed that might be. You've had this idea and you're blindly chasing it because you see a glimmer of hope... it won't work that way.
 
GrandMasterDash said:
It can't be done like that... there are three basic types of average (median, mean and mode) but sits within the larger subject of statistics as a whole, which is not your field of expertise.
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You still dont understand. I didnt ask the types of average. I asked methods in order to extract the result from a set of number votes. Someone could also propose unanimity for example, which is "in order to extract a result all numbers should be the same". This is also a method.

The yes/no vote you are using in the budget is simply a subset of the general number voting, where people are allowed to vote only 1 or -1 and not the inbetween numbers, or numbers greater or smaller. And of course also in that case, a method in order to extract the result is required. In the budget system for example, you have selected a method in order to extract the result from the 1/-1 votes (or yes/no as you call it) which involves not only how participants voted, but also the number of participants as a percentage of the total body.

So do you want me to include the method you use in the budget , in the vote I am about to put in a while that is about to decide the desirable method in order to extract the result from a set of number votes? Ok I ll do it. So the number of participants is also a variable in our problem, and we should consider that also.

Do you have any other method to propose?
 
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The important thing in number voting is that the numbers that people are alowed to vote they should always be limited to a minimum and a maximum number. This is very essential. This is what happens in life also, there is always the maximum speed of light. If you cannot find the minimum and the maximum that people are allowed to vote, then the number voting cannot start.

So in its generality, people are allowed to vote from -1 to 1.

If it is a pure number voting, you are allowed to vote the inbetween numbers, and the system translates the vote to the desired minimum and maximum. And according to the case, -1 vote coressponds to the minimum number (for example, in the case of the alternative allocated budget, it could be 0) and 1 vote corresponds to the maximum number (for example in the case of the alternative allocated budget, it could be 7500).

if it is not a pure number voting but you want to vote using yes/no/other, then no is considered -1, 0 is other, and 1 is yes.

There is also the ranking voting, which can also be simulated if you allow to vote numbers inbetween -1 and 1, but not all numbers but as many numbers as the ranking requires.

After this, we have also to decide the decision method in order to extract the result (mean average, mode average, median average, simple majority, strong majority, unanimity e.t.c.), which takes also into account the percentage of the body that participates to the elections. We can decide this by voting and taking into account the bold rule.

This is the system I am planing to code. If you cast the third yes vote here in this poll, then I ll start hacking the code in order to bring it to life.
 
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