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Pre-Proposal: Would you like to be able to vote with number?

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by demo, Jun 2, 2016.

?

Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?

  1. yes

    15.8%
  2. no

    73.7%
  3. other

    7.0%
  4. yes, but only for the median average

    3.5%
  1. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    This is a question to all masternode owners.

    In the budget system you are allowed to vote only by using a yes or a no.
    Would you like to be able to cast a vote using numbers, into specially designed for that purpose polls?
    The result of the vote is extracted by calculating the average of all numerical votes.
     
    #1 demo, Jun 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
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  2. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member
    Linguistic Dash Nation Founder Moderator

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    Before you expose me, I voted "no", just like I did in your other poll.
     
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  3. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    It is not my poll. It is a poll.

    Polls do not belong to anyone, they are just questions.
    The questions have no owner, the answers have.
     
  4. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    I ll appreciate the masternode owners, especially those who are against numerical votes, to come here and cast their vote.
    I am about to spend 5 dash in order to propose a similar proposal to the budget.

    So if you plan to vote a "no" on my proposal at the budget system, better do it here rather than there.
    So that Ι will save my 5 dash and I will not spend them in vain.
     
    #4 demo, Jun 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
  5. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    It might be helpful to your cause if you sounded less like a troll :)

    Tao voted no because you come off as someone who's just playing games. That's why I would vote no as well but the idea is starting to Intrigue me... Go on?

    Is this how I sounded when you guys swore up and down I was a troll?
     
  6. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Sometimes the troll is in our ears and not in the mouth of the speaker. This troll distorts the truth of the speech, so that meaningfull speeches sound like gibberish to us.

    Maybe I am a troll, but those who see troll in this simple vote-question, they are more trolls than I am. When someone points to something, you should look at the point and not at the finger. I am the finger, you may dont like me, but look where I am pointing to, and dont look at my dirty nails.
     
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  7. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    You HAVE to be an alt account.... >.< rofl
     
  8. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    I don't have a problem with non-binary voting in principle, but the way you have described it for usage in the budget system I don't think is very well thought out. The budget system is already being improved, and at this point unless I see some serious whitepaper-quality research showing exactly what the model is, how it would fit into our framework including technical feasibility, and why it would be so good for Dash that we should encourage developers to work on this instead of other things, I will have to vote no.
     
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  9. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    You expect a whitepaper-quality research, only in case you have already another whitepaper-quality research to revert. But what you have is not quality. it is a "pork barrel". In that case you dont need quality, you just invert the barrel for the pork to escape.

    Because you have a "pork barrel" right now, and because this barrel is based on a hardcoded number that cannot change, it is urgent to change that number right now. And who is about to decide the change of this hardcoded number? Either one person, or a group of people (the experts), or everyone. If you reject the "one_person_decides" case, then a system that will allow voting with numbers is absolutely necessary, for the experts to be accountable on their decisions.

    The numerical voting is urgent, you should implement it asap, because the more you wait, the more porky the barrel becomes.
     
    #9 demo, Jun 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2016
  10. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?
    1. yes 1 vote(s) 8.3%
    2. no 10 vote(s) 83.3%
    3. other 1 vote(s) 8.3%

    The one who is about to cast the 13th vote here, he/she should be carefull.
     
    #10 demo, Jun 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2016
  11. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?
    1. * yes 1 vote(s) 6.7%
    2. no 12 vote(s) 80.0%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 13.3%
     
  12. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    New result

    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?

    1. *yes 2 vote(s) 12.5%
    2. no 12 vote(s) 75.0%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 12.5%
     
  13. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    new result.
    Everything goes according to plan.The 13th "no" vote arrived in the expected #13 post announcing the result.

    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?

    1. yes 2 vote(s) 11.8%
    2. no 13 vote(s) 76.5%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 11.8%
     
  14. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    This looks to me like another request for useful granularity in the DGBB... Albeit, too obtuse to be of any use, but it signifies that I'm not the only one who sees the problem.

    The problem is so large that I doubt any without experience will really wrap their heads around it...

    I'm voting no on your poll only because this chips at a mere symptom of a much larger sickness about which I have been ranting for close to a year now...
     
  15. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Whatever you want.

    Dash is not the community of hackers and IT experts like old good bitcoin used to be, at the time of Satoshi. Dash is one man's (or a few men's) show and all the rest are IT ignorants. The majority of MNs are also IT ignorants that are attracted, seduced and misleaded by advertising, ephemeral beauty and public relations rather than quality and robustness. So there is not auspicious future for dash.

    If MNs deny the flexibility and the precision on decisions that only the numerical voting can give, then dash is doomed to corrosion, and the corrosion sooner or later will lead dash to its death.

    I am dashless and I refuse to invest in dash until you follow the correct road.
    So I will not regret for dash's failure. But you will.

    New result.
    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?
    1. yes 2 vote(s) 10.5%
    2. no 15 vote(s) 78.9%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 10.5%
     
    #15 demo, Jul 7, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
    demo
    This message by demo has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  16. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    No need to preach doom because you didn't get your way... I'm actually agreeing with you. But what you're seeing is merely a symptom of a much larger problem, and the features you seek I've already outlined in a bigger, more useful way in previous DGBB rants from almost a year ago. I saw this shit coming before Evan even implemented the current voting system.
     
  17. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    yes of course. The lack of voting with numbers is a single symptom of a much larger problem. You also need to implement a voted decision tree having interdependent polls. But the task of building this voted decision tree is very hard. Hard not only to implement it in code (you need to take advantage of the inherent computer property of reflection which is not implemented in the most common programming languages and only some rare academic projects or some viruses are taking full advantage of it), but also hard for the ignorants to understand the theory behind (the games theory), so that they will be able to vote on it efficiently. Because for a voted decision tree to be able to work efficiently, humans (aka logical beings) must vote on it and not monkeys or sheeps.

    On the other hand voting with numbers is easy to implement it and to understand it. Even the monkeys and the sheeps can take a glance on it. Thats is why I am proposing it as the first step. It is an easy task, and the first step in order to educate the monkeys and the sheeps and transform them (slowly) into humans.
     
    #17 demo, Jul 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  18. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    New result

    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?

    1. yes 2 vote(s) 10.0%
    2. no 16 vote(s) 80.0%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 10.0%
     
  19. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    I think I discovered where to do changes, in order to vote with numbers.
    Thanks to this
    https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/august-2016-development-update.10018/#post-100765
    I discovered that fixes should start from
    here
    https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/v0.12.1.x/src/rpcmasternode-budget.cpp#L59
    here
    https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/v0.12.1.x/src/rpcmasternode-budget.cpp#L193
    and here
    https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/v0.12.1.x/src/rpcmasternode-budget.cpp#L25

    The above is for the future version of dash.
    for the dash version that is currently running, similar changes should start from here
    https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/master/src/rpcmasternode-budget.cpp

    If I post here a fork of the code, where number voting will be allowed to all MNO by using the mngovernance command, will you then change the poll result of this pre-proposal in favor of a "yes"?

    As a sign of a good will, I am waiting for the third "yes" vote to be casted into the poll, in order for me to start hacking the code.

    Most developers are paid in dash. I am paid in faith.
     
    #19 demo, Aug 4, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
  20. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    new result. Faith didnt come yet.
    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?

    1. *yes 2 vote(s) 9.5%
    2. no 17 vote(s) 81.0%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 9.5%
     
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  21. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    new result

    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?
    1. yes 2 vote(s) 9.1%
    2. no 18 vote(s) 81.8%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 9.1%
     
  22. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    new result
    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?
    1. *yes 2 vote(s) 8.7%
    2. no 19 vote(s) 82.6%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 8.7%
     
  23. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    new result.
    Would you like to be able to cast votes using numbers and extract the results as an average?

    1. yes 2 vote(s) 8.3%
    2. no 20 vote(s) 83.3%
    3. other 2 vote(s) 8.3%
    Those repeatable statistics seem a nuisance to me.
    I wish I could have something like this for my poll, in order to stop using this thread as a database record.
     
  24. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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  25. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    bump
     
    #25 demo, Aug 25, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  26. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    demo, voting by numbers already exists, it's available to anyone running a multiple number of servers... they can simply split their share of votes among their nodes.
     
  27. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    The proposal is not only "vote with numbers". It is also to extract the result as the average.
    Even if you have multipe number servers and split their share of votes among your nodes, they all vote only yes/no in the budget, and not an average is extracted.
    So, for example, you cannot implement the alternative budget system (which is only one of the many uses the number voting has)
     
  28. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    It's not going to work with averages because there are different ways of calculating it and not everyone is going to agree which is best
     
  29. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Of course there are different ways of calculating the result of a vote.
    The key in order to select the winner method is: Each method in order to be selected should initialy respect its own method, then the most loved method is selected.

    For example if you want the majority rule (50%+1) to be implemented as a decision rule, this must be supported by the majority of people. If you want strong majority (66%+1) to be implemented as a decision rule, this must be supported by 66%+1 of the people.

    Not everyone is going to agree which is the best decision rule, but everyone should agree with the logic, and the logic says that if only 55% want the strong majority(66%+1) to be implemented, it is not logical to implement such a rule that do not respect itself.

    So lets say we have several numerical votes (1,5,34,2,23). One method to decide is to extract the average (1+5+34+2+23) / 5 = 13. What other methods exist? Tell me an alternative method, and I will apply the above mentioned rule (marked in bold), in order to find the winner method.
     
    #29 demo, Aug 25, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  30. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    The median, in your example, would be 5... but the mean is 13
     
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