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Lamassu update ?

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by Icebucket, Aug 18, 2016.

  1. Dash Advocate

    Dash Advocate New Member

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    Even if true, the logic doesn't work. The person who fronted the cash should accept the liability with doing that. Not everyone else. Further, if that person fronted the cash, its because he trusts them. So, he should have no problem getting the value back.
     
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  2. Dashmasternode

    Dashmasternode New Member

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    This is why i sold off my mnodes and only hold one now. Dash unfortunately will soon be lapped by other coins because they just cant get it done....good luck guys.
     
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  3. tungfa

    tungfa Administrator
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    nobody fronted the money for this !
    the monthly funds go to a developer who is active working and then maintaining this
     
  4. Dash Advocate

    Dash Advocate New Member

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    Just to be clear - it was David who said that. Not me. I made it clear I didn't think it was true.

    Having said that, please define 'active working' because we don't have anything to show for this huge budget expenditure yet.

    Dash needs to be more transparent. All software development (internally and externally) should be done on GitHub such that everyone can see the activity. For proposals that involve software development, that should be a hard requirement.

    I don't care what the rules were - anyone with any ethics at all would still provide monthly reports that detail progress and expenses.

    I am not sure which is worse - the fact we have nothing to show for this Scamassu project, or the fact that Dash seems to not want to do anything to correct that!


    In other words, it appears that Dash does not want to be accountable, for the lack of accountability! That. Is. Insane.

    Oh - before you provide the "Progress Reports' that have been provided, understand that I will make a point of explaining that all they do is say a lot about nothing. (Like that Seinfeld episode.)

    Questions: Wouldn't it just be easier to deal with the elephant in the room? Do you really think it is eventually going to fit under the carpet?

    Note that the person who deals with this properly is going to gain some protection from when the shit hits the fan - and will be less likely to be the fall guy. (Whoever that is may not deserve the added protection - but controlling how the bad news comes out tends to do that.)

    I think development has some issues, but I bet they disappear once there is a shake-up of the non-development people. So, who is going to bring the truth out into the open? Ryan? Daniel? You Tungfa?

    I've got my popcorn ready.
     
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  5. tungfa

    tungfa Administrator
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    i am not managing that project so i only have limited knowledge of the details !
    ;)
     
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  6. MangledBlue

    MangledBlue Well-known Member
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    ......limited knowledge of the details !

    @tungfa

    .....as we all seem to have....
     
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  7. noobtrader

    noobtrader Active Member

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    that is it, im voting no on this proposal until there is some progress report going...
     
  8. bertlebbert

    bertlebbert Active Member

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    Actually, Lamassu received NO funds and won't receive any...
    "They are a start-up and never committed to do this work internally themselves or received any payment from us directly." .[see post #14 above]

    Rather, GitGuild receives a monthly payment of Dash - not cash, allocated from the ongoing budget...
    "So that is the reason why we did a Dash based contract and not a USD based contract" .[see post #9 above]
     
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  9. bertlebbert

    bertlebbert Active Member

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    lol... including @Minotaur o_O
     
  10. bertlebbert

    bertlebbert Active Member

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    This project may well (probably will) turn out to be not so good... oh well - early stages, lesson learned by all.

    (But if that turns out to be true, don't come back saying that Ira needs just a little bit more funding. :D)
     
  11. Dash Advocate

    Dash Advocate New Member

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    OK. So who is managing the project and has the details?
     
  12. David

    David Well-known Member
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    Thank you (and @tungfa) for the correction. I'm going to open myself up to the possibility of further error here, but I also seem to recall that the difficulties are due to Lamassu's unexpected changes in their codebase to support ETH, and that our vendor partner, GitGuild, is actually not liable for something that Lamassu (who is not a party to the contract) has done or not done.

    Frankly, the Network entered into a contract with GitGuild to do work on a third-party application (from Lamassu). If Lamassu has (temporarily) blocked GitGuild's work, then that is not GitGuild that is to blame, but our own Network for not taking into account that risk factor. Why should we breach our contract with GitGuild because of our own errors in judgment?

    I don't like it either--we've ended up paying an insane amount of money for something that has not progressed as far as we expected. But it is good to maintain some perspective: at the time we voted this proposal in, the price of DASH had been stagnant for 18 months and we had no reason to believe it would soon quadruple.

    Finally, remember that if we vote this proposal down, it will be the SECOND TIME in less than a year that the Dash Network has defaulted on a legal contract (the first was Terpin PR). It won't be much longer before vendor partners refuse to do business with us, and rightly so. It also opens up either Evan, Daniel, or the Dash Foundation (depending on who signed the contract) to civil litigation. Do you want Dash development stalled while our Core Team redirects its energies and funds to fight a lawsuit?

    It's important to note that every single budget proposal is an investment in Dash's ecosystem. There is always the risk that some investments won't pay off--just as with the stock market. We are starting to see a few of these investments stumble (Website, Lamassu) and at least one has completely flopped (that guy that requested multimonth funding to build a fiat exchange and got only got one month's worth and thus couldn't finish). We should be prepared for the occasional failure!
     
    #42 David, Oct 14, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
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  13. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Personally I do not agree. The risk of not delivery of what was promised in a proposal is for both parties - network and contracted entity. By not delivering what was promised contracted entity breaks the contract in the first place so I don't see why would you blame network for stopping payments.

    That's the design of current system and every contractor should be aware of such limitations and risks and accept them, otherwise there is no deal at all. And by accepting them he has no rights to fill a lawsuit against network which is funding his proposal (not sure how he would fill such a lawsuit at all) or it's a twisted logic otherwise. Not to mention that he has no rights to fill a lawsuit against any of Core Team members, they do not fund any proposals. Unless some of them signed a contract personally of course.
     
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  14. Dash Advocate

    Dash Advocate New Member

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    Finally, remember that if we vote this proposal down, it will be the SECOND TIME in less than a year that the Dash Network has defaulted on a legal contract (the first was Terpin PR). It won't be much longer before vendor partners refuse to do business with us, and rightly so. It also opens up either Evan, Daniel, or the Dash Foundation (depending on who signed the contract) to civil litigation. Do you want Dash development stalled while our Core Team redirects its energies and funds to fight a lawsuit?

    Dude. That's not how it works. The budget system allows for a multi-month proposal to be voted down on any given month. Further, I don't think that anyone minds that partners who want to scam us refuse to do business with us. What should have happened is that the very minute that Lamassu threw a wrench into things, the network should have been fully informed of the impact, and then given the opportunity to continue or stop the project.

    No. I don't want the development team slowed down. That's why this project should never have been started. The funds should have gone to development. Same goes for the legal, compliance and PR related proposals. What is happening here is that Ryan, Daniel and Tungfa need to justify their participation in Dash, so this stuff gets started and becomes a mess. Get rid of it all, and direct the resources to Evolution development.

    Your 'word-spin' is not good enough to fool anyone.
     
  15. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    There is no such thing as the Dash network breaching a contract. The network cannot enter into a contract. If a proposal owner made a legal contract, and is stuck with the bill because the network ceases funding, then it is the proposal owner's own fault for assuming unnecessary risk by not making the legal contract contingent on the network funding.

    People who work for our DAO need to understand that they can't expect continued funding if they fail to deliver.
     
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  16. fible1

    fible1 Well-known Member
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    I just want to say I down-voted this a while back based on the fact this has not gone as planned. No need to fight, just dow-nvote with your nodes and if other people agree, this proposal will be voted off the budget :).

    Pablo.
     
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  17. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    Or, increase the competition with lots of high quality budget props. Make the MNs an offer they can't refuse and get the lesser performing ones bumped :)
     
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  18. David

    David Well-known Member
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    "Should" being the operative world. I suppose it depends on how the agreement was structured. If I was a vendor, I would want a signed contract before commencing work. That means some legal entity (human, corporation, or foundation) has to actually sign the document. That entity is then responsible for breach of contract if the terms are violated.

    Regardless of whether there was a legal contract, precedent is a powerful thing. I wouldn't want our network to become known for breaching contracts. Besides, do you really expect every vendor/partner to become an expert on our budget system? For most people, it would never occur to them that once an agreement is made, funding can be cut off at any time.

    While obvious to us, a vendor might not realize that there are three parties to any agreement: themselves, the human or organization they accept the assignment from, and the Network that issues payment.
     
  19. Dash Advocate

    Dash Advocate New Member

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    They didn't get a signed contract. Precedent is a powerful thing. Do you want our network known for requiring no deliverables, no progress reports, no expense reports, no accountability and no transparency? Because that is exactly what is happening with the Scamassu project.

    Also, there are only 2 parties to these agreements; the proposal budget recipient, and the network.

    Please stop spinning words. It isn't helping your cause - we can see right thru it.

    I mean really - is there ANY business ANYWHERE that gives out money for projects, without any deliverables, progress reports, expense reports, or accountability and transparency? I guess there are some - the ones that fail fast.

    If Dash hits $100.00 then we are talking about $1,000,000 per month that will be spent this way. Corruption will be rampant.

    Dash is supposed to have a GOVERNANCE system, but I don't see any tools/information to support governance. Just votes.
     
  20. Miner237

    Miner237 Well-known Member
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    If a third party code change is to blame for development slow down or stoppage then payments should be put on hold as well until a reasonable solution can be submitted.

    There is still no scripts, to my knowledge, no actual guide to follow on how to actually make a lamassu vend DASH.. @issyd please I hope you and your team have finalized some guides so we could at least have some people validate, right now to me I feel the status reports just looks like a bunch of marketing and hype about how CTMs work..
     
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  21. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    The last I heard (a few weeks ago) from the only actual client I am aware of who has a Lamassu ATM and wants to install the Dash software (@cryptoatm), has been trying for months to get support from TigoCTM, was repeatedly told to wait for documentation and eventually had a phone call for a few hours, and to my knowledge has still not been able to get it working. I'd be interested to hear if there is any update on this, or if anyone, anywhere, has been able to set up a fully functional ATM.

    I would also point out, we keep spending so much time on the seemingly horrific execution of this project, that I think some of us might be missing another key point which is that crypto ATMs are arguably one of the worst, inefficient, and unprofitable ways towards adoption. If you build 100 ATMs, how many people in the world are going to physically go to one of those locations to buy Dash? And to spend it where? You end up with the occasional rare extreme crypto enthusiast who might drop a few bucks on it as a novelty. This, versus developing online or mobile apps to give millions of people access to buy Dash at any time, any place with as painless a user experience as possible, and places to spend Dash. I would argue that crypto ATMs have done almost nothing to speed up Bitcoin adoption when compared to other entry points, and operating one is rarely profitable. The market demand for this is just not there. Dash would be wise to learn from this as it makes its business decisions.
     
    #51 TroyDASH, Oct 15, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
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