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Lamassu update ?

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by Icebucket, Aug 18, 2016.

  1. Icebucket

    Icebucket Active Member
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    Im curious about the Lamassu ATM project, The price was 20.000$ for the integration (think I read that somewhere). How much has been payd thus far ? Does anyone know ?

    Becourse there are 6 months remaining on the proposal. According to Dash Central.


    Is there some "Already funded" function built in the budget system that tracks the price and recalculates the distributed cost of a multi month proposal ??

    Are there any new updates on the process of this project
     
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  2. Comodore

    Comodore Member

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    I am interested as well.
     
  3. Miner237

    Miner237 Well-known Member
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    I think it should only be 3-4 cycles left? https://www.dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=lamassu-integration

    It is up to the masternode owner network to vote on proposals and down vote if they are against it.

    I have seen a lot of work going on arround the lamassu project but sadly there isn't much to show for it.
     
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  4. Icebucket

    Icebucket Active Member
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    Yes I would want to vote to continue paying if they have not been funded the whole amount they asked for.

    But if they have already been funded then I dont get why the extra 8,281.69 USD for the remaining 3-4 months = 24,843 - 33.124 USD

    Thats why I asked how much they have been payd last 8 months. Or maybe was the deal in X amount of Dash rather than USD ??

    @kot any updates regarding Lamassu ?
     
    #4 Icebucket, Aug 19, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
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  5. Icebucket

    Icebucket Active Member
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    Did put in the time to make a excel. This is what came out of it 31.079 $ payed so far.
    lamassu.jpg
     
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  6. fible1

    fible1 Well-known Member

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    In the current implementation price risk is borne by the contractor; they just got lucky.

    Pablo.
     
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  7. Miner237

    Miner237 Well-known Member
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    Yes I agree with Pablo, they got very lucky because the amount of work is greater than they expected and the budget is worth more than expected.

    Is there any one other than crypto guild and tigo ctm member that have lamassu running dash?

    I would like to find out how to join the public beta
     
  8. fible1

    fible1 Well-known Member

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    In all fairness, from what info has been made public, this is our worst performing open project by far. That doesn't mean anything regarding the conversion price but its something to think about for future budget implementations.

    Pablo.
     
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  9. Minotaur

    Minotaur Well-known Member
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    Pablo's answer is a simple short summary but for the benefit of newcomers I would like to add some context. To fully understand the nature of this contract you have to transport yourself back to the early days of our funding system. On those early days the budget was very limited in monthly dollar amount available to invest and also liquidity of Dash in exchanges was very low. We made a commitment as a team that we would not sell any Dash on exchanges to fund projects as with the low liquidity it was a big concern at the time how the investments would affect the Dash price on the short term. Evan and me were looking for investment opportunities for the network to advance adoption and start working in this direction and we really feel Dash terminals/ATMs will play an important role in the future of the network and wanted to get started in that direction.
    The first thing you need to know is that we started attempts to create a Lamassu integration in-house far before there was any contractor involved or even a funding system.

    We tried unsuccessfully for months after I had contacted Lamassu back in 2014 and they had shown interest and said yes that they would support us working on an integration. We tried with internal developers for months before there was any contractor involved or even a funding system. At the time @flare helped with technical questions in the interactions with the Lamassu team @UdjinM6 worked on our first ever attempt to create an integration but his time and expertise was just more valuable with CPP work and we then assigned it to another team developer from those days Francis. This was one of the first projects that Robert @kot took over as PM before any funding systems or contractors were on sight. We were just unable to do it at the time because it required specialized knowledge of CTMs and was much more complex than what we originally estimated and we just could not do it based on volunteer contributions. At the time a few of us on the team, specially Evan and me, were supporting development with donations of masternode rewards and the funding system did not even exist yet. Some of the developers still on the team and earlier community members would remember the masternode donation program where we were trying to compensate our developers donating the equivalent of 10 masternode monthly rewards as a development slot for each developer on the program. This donation program was not successful as it was hard to get sponsors to help, some generous people did step up, people like Oblox and Tungfa graciously offer to help with a few nodes, but in the end it was mostly Evan and me that ended up sponsoring this program before we had a funding system.

    In fact the fact that we could not possibly scale our progress and the frustrations under the donation model lead to the development of the Governance system after our attempts to secure sponsors for donations were unsuccessful mainly because some of our investors that we approached did not like the free rider issue of funding development while other masternode operators would not be contributing and that is how the idea for a treasury came up after long discussions of how we could possibly solve this issue.

    After we finally had a funding system and after being unable to produce an ATM integration for months on our own we started looking for contractors to finally produce Dash compatible ATM software that at the time was a big goal for us. We decided to hire the GitGuild (Deginner at the time) because they had a lot of experience with ATMs and had built plugins for them and had the experience to build it. Being something that we had being trying to do for months internally this was one of the first things we set out to do when we finally had a system. But again the size of our budget was small and the liquidity on exchanges was low so the best option for us at that time was to negotiate for the contractor to take a Dash contract, which was actually hard at the time it was not a given and also for the contractor to take terms/ monthly payments so it would not occupy a portion of our budget that was too large and would prevent us to do other investments at the same time. So that is the reason why we did a Dash based contract and not a USD based contract as we do now and is also the reason why we asked for terms and created a 12 month contract. We understand that as time passes the context of the situation at the time is forgotten and is easy to just multiply the current pricing back on one of our first contracts but that is just not the right way to see it and not how things went down back then. The contractor was also taking a risk with us the Dash economy was not back then what it is now. I can assure you we have made every decision at each phase looking to push the Dash network forward and with the best of intentions, our options were just extremely more limited at the time. I hope that this helps everyone that has join us along the way better understand the context. If you want more feedback from those days and how we came to those decisions you can ask any of the people that were involved at the time, to follow progress you can look at our update reports.
     
    #9 Minotaur, Aug 20, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
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  10. fible1

    fible1 Well-known Member

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    @Minotaur Points well made my friend. Do not interpret my comments as a criticism, I have followed your releases with interest and am a big supporter.

    Pablo.
     
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  11. Minotaur

    Minotaur Well-known Member
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    @fible1 I am a fan of yours I think you always make intelligent comments and suggestions and look forward to working more with you in the future. I actually thought your reply was on point. I just wanted to share the whole picture as we understand we have grown a lot since then and a lot of information has been lost over time.
     
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  12. Icebucket

    Icebucket Active Member
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    Wow thanks for your very detailed answer @Minotaur. So the deal was for X amount of Dash rather than USD .. that really just answers my concerns. Understandably no one could see this price increase coming ;) and the deal was made..
    Im ok with that .. but what concerns me is the lack of communication from the lammasu team.

    Do they get funded into there wallet or is there someone holding it in escrow until they show some milestones completed ?. Note that the project is already funded 150%


    Ok lets forget that the deal was made in dash.. it does not matter but If the price stays the same from here it will be 55.889 $ that is almost 3 times what was asked...Still ok with that.

    So far Im told only one ATM has Dash integrated out of all the ATMs they have. (there might be some legit reason for that (hopefully))

    But that does not explain why this happens when you google
    site:https://lamassu.is dash
    guess what ... nothing shows up :eek:

    I just think it is kind of sketchy that they dont even mention Dash on theyr website after 6 months of funding
     
    #12 Icebucket, Aug 20, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
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  13. Comodore

    Comodore Member

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    All of your information makes sense @Minotaur
    What I am wondering about is how to make all Lamassu integrating it into all machines? And I have sent you PM long time ago, without any answer on your side. I would like to establish new partnership, that could make this proposal way more sucessfull.

    I am looking forward to cooperate with you.

    Yeah, and please clarify, why Lamassu is not in direct relation to this project as it was stated initialy.
     
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  14. Minotaur

    Minotaur Well-known Member
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    Hi @Icebucket, thanks for the reply, I am going to try to address the rest of your concerns to the best of my knowledge. First I recommend to please read the discussion on our latest announcement and update here as there is information there that you may find relevant.

    There is a very simple answer to your concern as we have never made any payments to Lamassu directly nor have they made a commitment to openly promote Dash on their website and is certainly not a deliverable we can guarantee as it depends on an independent business making this decision. Please allow to me to expand. What we set out to do was to produce software that would allow to run dual DASH and BTC teller machines on Lamassu hardware. We decided we wanted to work with Lamassu because they are true to the spirit of open source collaboration, machines that run closed sourced software were not an option for us for legal and philosophical reasons.

    Back in 2014 I approached Lamassu directly with no contractor or funding system in sight to try to convince them to add Dash support to their machines. We were Darkcoin back then and while many businesses were scared of our brand I must say the Lamassu team are true libertarians that were open to the idea. Also ETH did not even exist yet. The agreement back then was that we would do the development work on our own and they would answer questions we may have and would examine once we had something alpha they could test. I already described in a previous post how things went and the fact that we were unable to produce a working version of this while trying with different in-house developers. This was a different time and you can see all the details on the previous post. After us being unable to produce a working version of this things went cold for a while but we always had the intention to go back to this once we found a way to do it.

    After many things happen and we finally came up with the idea for the governance system and that was set in place we went back to revisit this topic and we found Deginner had experience with machines having built plugins for it in the past and they had a long standing relationship with the Lamassu team and were friendly since early years of Bitcoin. So the project was set in motion again, Ira helped us approach Lamassu again and they once again accepted to support us by providing guidance on the implementation process and sharing information on their plans to make any changes to their system so we could produce a working implementation this time. They are a start-up and never committed to do this work internally themselves or received any payment from us directly. We were also very clear that we were hiring Deginner to develop a Dual Dash / BTC software stack for Lamassu machines. This was an official statement from Zach Harvey as part of many articles that were released on the topic at the time:

    This also sets a standard that other altcoins may follow. Zach Hervey, CEO and Co-Founder of Lamassu, Inc. told Bitcoin.com how this deal came to be, saying:

    “Ira [Miller] from Deginner approached us regarding using our open source software for developing a Dash Lamassu version and we’re happy he’s doing it. Especially, since he has some experience fiddling with the Lamassu machine in Panama. In general, we’re open to merging well-supported pull requests that meet our standards and have proper demand.” You can read the whole article here: DASH Goes Up 20% After Lamassu Integration Approved

    Of course we could never create this software without Lamassu's support and collaboration they have provided support to our contractor and shared details of changes, specially when they also started making changes to support multicurrency with an initial focus on ETH. Our contractor has so far created 3 versions of Dual DASH/BTC Lamassu software. A first fully working version was created before Lamassu had any ETH implementation or any multicurrency support. Then during the peak of Ethereum hype right before the DAO hack they made a business decision to try to introduce Ethereum although the software was just alpha and remains alpha they did put it on the website, this has nothing to do with us, but it affected us because they made changes to the database structure and made some choices on how multicurrency would work that differ from our first working implementation. So our contractor had to go back and create a second working implementation that is the one that today matches the multi-currency support that Lamassu is moving through their development cycle at their own pace. After this, we wanted to do more and as part of the FIAT gateways project we were now working on better tools to connect the Dash machines to broker software and create a more automated experience for the future Dash operators. So a third extended version was created which is the one in which we have more freedom to innovate and add more features.

    Finally what we set out to do which was to produce dual DASH/BTC teller machine software and make it available to people has been accomplished. You can order machines now. If you want this machines to come directly from the Lamassu factory we can make arrangements with them to flash the machines with our software stack on the factory floor so you can get them ready to go. We also partnered with TigoCTM who are making all Lamassu machines they sell Dash enabled by default, both options exists. And I already know of at least 5 machines that people are in the process of setting up that will have Dash as an option. I myself bought one so I know is easy to do.

    Now you mention that there was only one machine running as a concern, well obviously the first ever machine running is the one that Ira runs himself in the process of building the software, the prototype. Also Lamassu is a manufacturer they are not operators of a network at this time as far as I know. There will be more and more Dash machines operating in the wild as time goes by just because there is now an easy way to do it where before there was none. Business development is a continuous process where there is a few machines now in time there will be a hundred or a thousand if we create the right conditions for it, but clearly the first step of developing a network is making machines accessible which has always been the goal of the project. Now we are starting outreach and promotion of our implementation to encourage people to run machines and offer Dash alongside BTC.

    If you want a machine to run in your town you can order it tomorrow and have it in a few weeks just like any other person ordering a CTM, that was our goal. About Dash being promoted on the Lamassu website that is a goal that we do not control because they are a private business but represents no obstacle to our plans of developing a network. I think in time they will promote us there as more people order Dash supporting machines but those are just my feelings. Our relationship to this day remains really friendly and we will follow their development process as they move multi-currency from alpha to production over the next few months as we have reported many times before.

    I hope this helps clarify things for you and let me know if you have any more questions.

     
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  15. Minotaur

    Minotaur Well-known Member
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    Hi @Comodore I would love to collaborate with you, could you send me an email to [email protected] I am not really good with forum PMs, please identify yourself as Comodore on the email and we can start working.

    I went into a lot more detail on the post right after yours, so I am hoping that some that information will be useful to you. About Lamassu integrating into all machines, well they are manufacturers and their machines run open source software. In reality is operators that we need to convince. In the case of new or existing operators that are already interested in Dash that should not be difficult is a matter of coordinating and giving them support. In the case of existing bitcoin operators with no current interest in Dash is a matter of networking and simply old school sales efforts. Which is what we are starting now, we are also working on some ideas that may make it attractive to operators to join Dash.

    To your last question I think we have always been as clear as possible as to who we were hiring and what was the scope. In fact this is the orginal text of the proposal:
    We tried our best to present things correctly while obviously being at the time really excited to finally make this happen and reach the state we are in now which is there are actually dual Dash/BTC machines available. Never do we say Lamassu is doing the work or being compensated directly as that would not be accurate and we had to check with all parties involved before publishing, also it is clearly a DASH contract for 12 months is at the top, for all the reasons explained before. There is also no mention of any USD value at all, applying current FIAT value to past expenses leads to confusion, it also happened with the dash.org domain purchase, which was a great win.


    So I hope this and my previous posts help clarify any other questions you may have and I look forward to working with you.

    To the community: We are trying our absolute best to produce value for the network with this and any other investments we propose for approval. Robert @kot and me spent hours working on the reports trying our best to improve communication. I hope that things are much more clear now and while we don't expect everyone to agree we wanted to be as clear as possible. I personally think these projects will be instrumental in our future and had we not started when we did we would still be far from where we are now.
     
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  16. Comodore

    Comodore Member

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    Yeah, lot of new information about this project were published in last 24 hours. I will absorb it and then I will sent you e-mail from a firm point of best available knowledge ;)
     
  17. Icebucket

    Icebucket Active Member
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    @Minotaur thanks for the update and the history behind this project it explains allot.☺
     
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  18. Dash Advocate

    Dash Advocate New Member

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    This project was never approved by Lamassu. The proposal seems to have been worded in such a way as to mislead people. A 3rd party company is doing the work, and it is officially not supported by Lamassu.

    I strongly suggest you read the update which will be posted here soon, but is already at https://www.dashcentral.org/p/lamassu-integration which includes this document:
    https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7QC8BXGNXxUdEJrOTl3UzdCcTQ

    So far we have nothing to show for this project, and indications are we never will.
     
  19. Miner237

    Miner237 Well-known Member
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    Hello as a current Lamassu owner operator the recent slack chat concerns me. This project, while it has updates and github comits etc, it lacks sufficient user base to show any progress.

    I want to know why isn't there a straight forward guide on how to replace bitcoind with dashd and forego the trade manager for now and just let the machine vend DASH? Just like we saw in the videos!

    Build up to features and enhancements later it's like we are going for version 3.0 before having a public beta.

    Now there has been a PDF published bringing light to the amount of funding that is being spent on our longest running project outside development that has long pauses of silence between updates.

    We need to see cost to result comparison, not links to trade manager and github readme files.

    We need to see and learn why trade manager is important, We need to know about the Lamassu machine branch. Do you think any non-Lamassu owner / user understands what a wrench Lamassu tossed at you guys by going to multicoin machine code?

    Hindsight 20/20 it would be nice to have see the updates like we had this month, every month since funding started.

    I waited 8 months now to find out I still can't sell a single dash from my Lamassu, and now to learn a frustrated community is starting to down vote the project.

    So here is my BIG question, if this is an ATM project, why is it being made more complex into a machine that can run games???

    Quote from github:

    "Git Guild is planning to hard fork from the mainstream lamassu-machine code, and build a much more versatile interface. Eventually, this interface will be host to more advanced functionality like games and shopping"
     
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  20. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    @Minotaur I would like to see your post #9 and #14 parked in a pdf somewhere so the link may be posted on other forums easily...
    tnx
    rc
     
  21. Minotaur

    Minotaur Well-known Member
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    Hi Miner237, I am currently traveling meeting with an investment group that is looking into Dash investments. I tried to answer all questions and give as much information before my trip so please give me a few days to give you more details.

    We wont stop work and it will become increasingly easier to set up as scripts become ready. It is an ongoing project and I apologize if you feels it takes long it is just a lot of work and we will continue making progress.

    Debate and feedback is an important part of our system, so we welcome everyone's opinions. I have shared all details I have so far and we will continue to update the community to the best of our ability on a regular basis. I hope at least that you can appreciate the effort we have been putting into communication.

    About the future plans to do more with the terminals we feel there will be a lot of value from working on other services besides just selling coins, but that is a future step. I will be able to engage more on this once I get back in a few days, just wanted to give you a reply now so you know I am aware of your message.
     
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  22. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    It's a bloated project focused on giving kickbacks and wasting funds all while providing an illusion of doing something. The biggest waste of a proposal I have ever seen, even worse than 40k for a domain fucking name.

    God you guys just want to royally screw Dash don't you? Who's pocket are you in Daniel?
     
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  23. Vedran Yoweri

    Vedran Yoweri Active Member

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    Thanks @Minotaur , for the report and explanation.

    I like the way you and the team work right now. Building the shared software components, working with third party's, creating alliances.
    Guess some don't see the benefits and efficiency right away. Not everyone designs software and understands the benefits of building reusable code components. Some maybe don't understand the need to build these in the first place.
    It's all explained clearly in the video's and on this forum but a these are just words and that's not enough for most people. Graphics would help, maybe in a blog post explaining the overall project and where the different projects and efforts fit in.

    Anyway, money well spent in my book, keep it up.
     
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  24. kot

    kot Well-known Member
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    Hey @Vedran Yoweri , If you refer to my post here: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/fiat-access-gateways-project-description-and-update.10290/ you will find link to the technical specification: https://github.com/GitGuild/gitguild_website/wiki/Git-Guild-Technical-Overview - there are some graphics there (or rather diagrms).
    It was also shared in previous updates about the project as well. Although I understand it may be complicated to many non-IT people to understand so much details - this is quite complex.
     
  25. Vedran Yoweri

    Vedran Yoweri Active Member

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  26. demo

    demo Active Member

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    Dash Address:
    XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX

    Enough with these graphics and specifications and talks and powerpoint presentations and video andertisings, and meetings!!!

    Could you please stop talking and posting presentations, designing graphics, diagrams and theoretical techical overviews, doing traveling meetings and symposiums (aka vacations), giving interviews in youtube and posting tutorials? Could you please stop paying all the above?

    Could you please just start writing the code? Could you please start paying only the code writers and not making subcontracts with the subcontractor of the subcontractor? Could you please just make this damned thing work?

    Not that you are going to listen of course (the current budget shows clearly what the false priorities of the MNOs are), but I just felt I have to say this.
     
    #26 demo, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
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  27. demo

    demo Active Member

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    @Minotaur: And your answer to the question about lamassu-dashd is....? If it is an ongoing project as you say, where are the commits in the github?

    I have seen the lamassu repository and especially the lamassu-bitcoind. Dash seems tottaly absent there. I have not seen any lamassu-dashd yet, where is it? Where are the github commits for lamassu-dashd, are they hidden from public view? Is it written into the contract that the commits should be visible, or it isnt? If it isnt, then how can you check the work progress ? How comes and you forgot to mention the visibility of the code commits in the contract with lamassu company?

    And finnaly, how much do you pay for someone else to fork and create the so desirable lamassu-dashd ? It is not that hard, isnt it?

    This should be a subject to vote, using numbers of course.:p You may vote inbetween 0 dash, and the whole (or remaining) monthly budget (of course if someone allocates all his number vote to one project, there is no room for him to vote for another project, in the same budget cycle) Then the system calculates the average of all votes in order to specify the final amount the community gives, to the one who will manage to make this damned thing work (as proved by his github commits). As you may have observed (unless you are a dormant whale) the above is a tottaly new budget system and a totally new way to deal with money allocations in the budget. There is the current budget system where someone proposes a budget allocation and receives yes/no votes for it, and there is the totally different budget system where someone proposes to the community a job to be done, and people give him the amounts of money (by using the number voting capability) they think he deserves for this job. The above alternative budget system that can be used on top of a basic yes/no approval (yes/no initial aproval is essential in order to avoid troll proposals that are asking the whole budget and beeing voted by few MNOs in order to get the small fee that occurs as a result of the average of all numerical votes) will always remain science fiction of course, as long as you refuse to vote with numbers.
     
    #27 demo, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  28. BolehVPN

    BolehVPN Active Member

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    Would be nice to have an update on this, otherwise we should seriously consider downvoting this until some clarity is achieved.
     
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  29. BolehVPN

    BolehVPN Active Member

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    This is Bill's work I haven't vetted through it but thought it would be good to post it here to see. He probably has delved into it more than I have.
     

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  30. David

    David Well-known Member
    Masternode Owner/Operator

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Lamassu was already paid for by a team member, and the monthly budget proposal simply reimburses that person. Consequently, downvoting the proposal only hurts the person who fronted the cash.
     

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