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Dash "stock split"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TanteStefana, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    If you’re a speculator/investor/techie/cryptoanarchist, that is.

    I count myself among the techies, but even I don't want to be paying 0.0023567 DASH for a cup of coffee. Showing its fiat value to me is like adding insult to injury. That’s what the cryptomasochists want for us, no?

    At the end of the day, if this problem isn't solved, we’re still relying on fiat, not replacing it altogether. That's because, with a limited supply of coins, the value will continue to rise. Eventually, we’ll be dealing with 6, or 7 decimal places just to come to an equivalent of today’s dollar or euro or pound.
     
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  2. Friend

    Friend New Member
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    1. I was thinking lately about Satoshis brilliant idea to make only 21 million "coins".
    It was great because 21 million (21,000,000) is good and comprehensive, by most people, number.
    In common sense coin is something nondivisible and 21 million (21,000,000) gives also some good feeling of scarcity.
    How would people react if they knew that true number of coins supply in bitcoin is 2,100,000,000,000,000 instead of 21,000,000? :)
    (or 1,800,000,000,000,000 for Dash instead of commonly advertised 18,000,000 )

    "coin" = 100,000,000 common sense coins.

    2. We do not necessary have to increase supply.
    Would it bother you to have 1000.00000 dash (after hypothetical 3 place decimal shift) on your i.e paper wallet, instead of 1.00000000 dash now?

    Most people in crypto businesses are geeks. It would make no difference for them, but it would make great difference in rise of the UX.

    (*note: In this case I use "." as a decimal place indicator. In some countries comma "," serves this purpose. I.e. 2,34zł for this mythical coffee)
     
  3. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    Friend, I see that you're a Masternode Operator. Is there anything you can do to help further along some kind of R&D proposal to work this issue out?
     
  4. Friend

    Friend New Member
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    I would be more than happy to help, although I'm not a pro in this field.

    First we have to make good preproposal and post it here: https://www.dash.org/forum/topic/pre-budget-proposal-discussions.93/
    Justification for money from treasury is very important. Fresh users are less trusted, so it's worth considering to give some initial work first, and claim reward later. If work is good quality, there should be no problem in refund.
    I, as a MN owner, would like to see why this topic should bee researched. How results can be beneficial to dash, and so on..
    (It is summer holiday, so we may not get much response in this period of time.)

    Other idea is to place preproposal with option to fund the initial 5 dash proposal fee. I think that dashtreasury.org was describing similar system to crowdfund this, almost, 1000$ fee.

    Later on I can talk to my few MN operator friends, to vote on this proposal, as many of them have similar concerns on this decimal point issue as you and me.

    If you @Andric Tham have any other ideas what I can do, please write.

    ================================

    I was seriously thinking to push it further myself, by letting research done on one of universities in my town, but after this:
    .. i lost part of my enthusiasm.

    I would be more than thankful, if we could get more complex response from the CoreTeam. (They are working hard on other things, so I understand they may by short on time)
    Something similar to this: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/an-open-letter-from-evan-and-ryan-regarding-dash-marketing.15537/
    ..would be an example of serious response.

    Have you @Andric Tham talked to head of UX, Chuck, from core team?
    What specific questions on this issue would you like to ask CoreTeam, if you could?
    Maybe it is only not publicly stated, and they "pursue other avenues to make Dash more understandable and usable to the public", as we speak. (Similar to marketing work being done in CoreTeam, but not properly publicly announced until https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/an-open-letter-from-evan-and-ryan-regarding-dash-marketing.15537/ )

    I would like to know Cores thoughts on this, but don't know how to reach them.
    It may be considered desperate, but maybe, in break, you @Chuck Williams , @0xfff , @j0shua , @Ryan Taylor , @AndyDark , @eduffield222 , and others qualified, could elaborate more on this topic?
    https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-stock-split.9611/page-4#post-132507
    https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-stock-split.9611/page-4#post-132732
    Thank you in advance.
     
    #124 Friend, Jul 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
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  5. super9mega

    super9mega New Member

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    I see both sides of the argument and personally I see doing a full on currency change is highly extreme as dash core has essentially already said. But more importantly, I also share the views of most people on this forum in that, spending 0.02142857143 dash ($3 USD) on a jar of pickles is highly confusing, even more so if you had no USD value to compare it to. Imagine trying to see the price of something in a store when you can't simply look and say "man! look at that, $2 a jar! that is a great deal!" as many have said further up in the thread.

    if anyone can go to a store that's written entirely in dash and half the items are double the price and the other half normal and not buy a single over priced item then they need an award of some sort. but anyone can do this if its easy to understand like, lets say USD

    what I purpose that we do is come to an agreement and then write a preproposal on that agreement that we come to (you could even start a poll on what everyone in this thread agrees on)

    so far we have about 3 ways to go about this, and we can all see that we do need a change of some sort so here we go:

    Do nothing

    pros
    • we don't risk any huge change in value
    • any company that uses dash doesn't have to change how they do business
    • any traders, exchanges, and normal people don't have to rethink what they have been doing for months now
    cons
    • makes it extremely hard for anyone to get their head around
    • makes dash more "exclusive" and less like what dash wants, digital cash, something simple that anyone can use
    • more like bitcoin which currently is in its current state, useless for anyone that just wants to buy a coffee

    Move the real decimal three or two places
    such as a stock split

    pros
    • highly usable
    • makes more people interested
    • gets us out of trying to use parts of one to try to buy simple things
    cons
    • its highly difficult and dangerous to change a currency like this
    • you would have a majority (I assume) in the community but it would be a huge debate and you might lose people
    • banks, businesses, exchanges, everyone would be in a state of panic like they are with bitcoin for august 1st


    Adding names for all divisions and moving the default to one of thos
    such as making 1/10 of a dash a decadash, etc.
    or you could even make the change above, and then have one dash be a "kilodash" or something

    pros
    • highly usable
    • gets more people into dash and makes it seem like more
    • doesn't hurt huge a company that already does huge dash transactions
    cons
    • its still hard to read conversions
    • you need the community to switch to using the new names
    • it doesn't fix the issue, just makes it easier to wrap your head around when using the wallet

    then I also agree to put a conversion in the wallet if we do anything to assist people trying to use it, so they are not confused as much (but that's not really a solution to the issue at hand)

    If someone could post a poll or a link to one we might see what we want to prepropose before going foreword with any mass study on solutions
    --thank you for your time--
     
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  6. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    The way I see it, the community only needs to agree on what the smallest denomination of the currency is called (like Ether’s wei or Bitcoin’s satoshi), and make that the default interface on any merchant or consumer facing application. Give it a corresponding symbol ($, ¥, etc.) and make sure it’s a Unicode symbol so it can be easily encoded and printed anywhere.

    The underlying assumption here is that humans parse whole numbers more easily than we do floating point numbers. This can be verified with an ethnographic research study, should the core team doubt this nugget of “common sense”.

    DASH (the largest unit with a ticker symbol) can always be traded as an asset, mined by miners, etc.

    The smallest unit should not be associated with the ticker symbol but treated like a commodity currency with an easy to parse symbol.

    Separating DASH the cryptoasset and DASH the cryptocurrency is almost a no-brainer.

    Investors and traders are needed to ensure a continually appreciating currency, and miners and masternodes secure the network. But merchants and users actually *use* the currency, and it’s time we start thinking about the use case.

    Best practices within the crypto community will not help us here, this is entirely new territory.
     
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  7. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    meritocracy = elitism in the twisted mind of a snowflake

    Hit any more more decent, productive people with you bike lock lately?
     
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  8. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    Another alternative to solving this is building an entirely new currency as an application on top of DASH itself, whose value is calculated on-the-fly and used only for cash transactions.

    Like Ether’s concept of gas, it decouples its value from the value of the cryptoasset. This makes the currency immune from market fluctuations and easier to transact, when multiple parties can be reasonably sure that the values they are agreeing to transact will be worth what they think it’s worth, in relative terms.
     
  9. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    The way I see it, decoupling DASH the cryptoasset from DASH the cryptocurrency is a crucial decision that will determine whether it is usable as digital cash in regular consumer-merchant transactions, or not.

    If DASH does not attempt to solve this problem, a fork or an alternative currency might come along and do so, suitably threatening our place in the top 10 and perhaps even upending Bitcoin as the “default” cryptocurrency.
     
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  10. super9mega

    super9mega New Member

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    we already have a duff which is the smallest currency dash can be at, is that what you were asking for?
     
  11. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    That may be what I’m asking, but does a “duff” currently have a corresponding Unicode symbol, and is it used as the default denomination in DASH wallets?

    Because if not, it’s an inferior currency interface compared to fiat currencies.
     
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  12. super9mega

    super9mega New Member

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    no it is not, you can change it to duff in the wallet though which means its implemented, but i do not think there is any current use and thus no symbol for it

    its just there
     
  13. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    Ah. Well there you go. That’s something that the DASH core team can start to do, to use Duff as the default currency, design everything around it, choose a suitable Unicode symbol, and start pushing it forward with merchant/consumer outreach. Make the transition as easy as possible for merchants and consumer.

    And for the rest of us miners / techies everything remains as is. Of course that still doesn’t solve the fluctuation problem.

    That could be a possible proposal.
     
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  14. super9mega

    super9mega New Member

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    I agree, we just need someone to make first a preproposal and find a symbol that matches with dash and then see how the community feels about it
     
  15. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    People need analogs to what they already use.

    We can promote DASH as the ewallet service and payment gateway. DASH has a corresponding cryptoasset that investors and traders care about, just like Apple has AAPL.

    To regular humans, DASH is just like PayPal or their bank app, except DASH issues its own world currency that makes cross border transactions low-fee. That currency is Duff. The value of which is currently pegged to DASH the cryptoasset, but can later be decoupled should market fluctuations prove to be a risk area.
     
  16. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    Sounds good. Do you need to be a masternode operator to write a preproposal? I’m not super familiar with the process.

    I can help with finding a suitable symbol for Duffs, maybe the rest of us can suggest, and we can vote on it.
     
  17. super9mega

    super9mega New Member

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    how about, i think you will like this.

    đ (U+0111)

    the lowercase version of the Đ used in dash
    works for me
     
    #137 super9mega, Jul 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  18. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    That works perfectly. ;) Any idea how we can get this into a pre-proposal?
     
  19. super9mega

    super9mega New Member

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    you can google some details and look at the forum on how to do it, but i think we should do research first on the true effect of switching to something like duff or mdash or µdash. like friend was saying. if any change was to happen we need concrete evidence that it helps someone other then ourselves, enough to be a real change that is needed to promote dash.
     
  20. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    Yes, as I was also saying, we might need to conduct ethnographic research as part of the proposal (should “common sense” not prevail), as that would require funding to be set aside for hiring user experience researchers (on a contract or volunteer basis) and as incentives for recruiting participants.
     
  21. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Nice find!
    Instead of using mDASH etc. we can go the other way around then probably i.e. Mduff (mega-duff), Kduff (kilo-duff). Though "duff" is a bit silly for mainstream imo, same as "satoshi" tbh.. Using 8 decimal places is also not that user-friendly.. There was an idea to call some another smaller unit "dot", so maybe:
    1 DASH (Đ) = 100.000.000 duffs = 1.000.000 dots (đ) ?
    i.e.
    1 đ = 100 duffs
    1 Kđ = 100.000 duffs = 0.001 Đ
    1 Mđ = 100.000.000 duffs = 1 Đ
     
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  22. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    So dots would work like dollars and duffs like cents? I like it.
     
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  23. solarguy

    solarguy Member

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    Given the somewhat volatile nature of cryptocurrencies in general, and most fiat currencies, I think the best long term solution is to have a converter in the wallet so the user can make ready comparisons with whatever fiat they are accustomed to.

    And, as an example of how problematic it would be to "just move the decimal 2 or 3 places" or adjust it so one Dash is worth a dollar, what if we had done that two weeks ago, suddenly the unit would have gone down in value by more than a third in a week.
     
  24. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    I think this was an issue that was already brought up in this thread. Nobody is suggesting that the cryptoasset DASH gets meddled with. We’ve all agreed it’s a bad idea for miners and traders.

    What we’re talking about is DASH the cryptocurrency (the one that is actually spent by consumers and accepted by merchants), and decoupling it from the cryptoasset. It’s the extent to which the decoupling is implemented which is a cause for concern.

    As previously mentioned, converters wouldn’t work as well as you’d still be abstracting the true value of the cryptocurrency from the spender or the merchant. That creates psychological and epistemological biases toward fiat, and against crypto, as a store of value and medium of exchange.

    While the cryptocurrency’s value still needs to be pegged to an underlying cryptoasset, the interface doesn’t have to be. Now, we aren't talking about the digital interface (wallet UI) but the more general, abstract notion of a cryptocurrency and how it’s presented to its users (merchants and consumers != traders and miners), such as its currency name, denominations, symbol.
     
    #144 Andric Tham, Jul 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  25. solarguy

    solarguy Member

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    Splitting the cryptocurrency Dash from the cryptoasset Dash sounds a lot like meddling with Dash, which you are suggesting.

    Once you split them, which sounds terrifying already, where does the new interface for the now separate cryptocurrency derive its value, since it will be intentionally not derived from the underlying cryptoasset?
     
  26. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Moderator
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    In my opinion, this is what I think will end up happening. Basically, the solution I see as making a coin usable is to create a sup-coin, backed by Dash that has it's value kept at the same level. Not against some fiat amount, but rather against a combination of commodities. Perhaps, Oil, Milk, Wheat, Rice, etc... experts in the field can come up with a formula that shows real base values. This new sub-coin would have a unit value based on trade all over the world and would be pegged to it. Whatever the formula is, the Masternodes would quarry the values, input them to the formula and set the # of sub coins available against the backing of Dash. So while Dash coins are constant (16-18 million available eventually) the sub coin would be flexible so that a user might see his 10 sub Dash balance go from 10 to 10.02111111 to 9.9999912 etc... in a matter of minutes or however long. However, the world value of a sub-Dash for purchasing power will always remain the same.

    In all honesty, this is where I'll bet it will go. It would be superior to fiat, as it would be highly stable and understandable. Stores wouldn't have to constantly re-price everything due to inflation, but rather could make long term deals with suppliers and know what to expect. This would ultimately save the common people a LOT of money in the long term.

    There will be a lot of work in the future to implement all of this, but in the mean time, I think setting your wallet to dots or duffs or read out in fiat is how it'll have to go down short term :(

    Long term, yes, if crypto is to supplant fiat some day, it has to have a simple reliable pricing system, and I do believe it'll go something like this.
     
  27. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    Let me clarify my thoughts.

    Decoupling DASH as a cryptocurrency (which is backed by its corresponding cryptoasset) doesn’t have to result in meddling with DASH so to speak, as one could simply create two front-facing interfaces from a unified back-end, in web development parlance. At least that’s a compromise.
     
  28. solarguy

    solarguy Member

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    And where does the newly decoupled cryptocurrency Dash on the new front end determine it's value so it looks and acts more like a dollar without all the disturbing zeros and decimals and long string of trailing numbers?
     
  29. Andric Tham

    Andric Tham New Member

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    As others have suggested, a smaller denomination of DASH (Dots), with two decimal places to indicate the lowest denomination.
     
  30. John.Huisamen

    John.Huisamen New Member

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    I agree with you, if Dash wants to fulfill its goal of mass adoption we can't be spending 0.002 Dash on a cup of coffee. Furthermore, (I assume) these are US prices. For people like me from Africa, you can add one or two more zeros into the price. It will simply not make sense to the human psyche to be paying Dash 0.0000231 for a cup of coffee. ☕️ I am all for the idea of having different denominations of Dash instead of doing a Stock Split.
     
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