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Dash "stock split"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TanteStefana, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Moderator
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    Since this is the testnet, and I figure any question can be asked here, LOL, I want to ask what you all think if we did a "stock split". We'd take 1 Dash and move the decimal over by one, and turn them into 10 Dash. This would increase psychological liquidity from 6.5 million coins to 65 million coins. True, it isn't required as it is in stocks on the stock market as you can buy any fraction of a coin in exchanges. However, people are irrational, and there is a psychological block against less than whole numbers. I think it's very VERY clear by watching the exchanges, that buying quantity over quality rules.

    Even if now is not the time, I actually think this would be a good precedence to set for Dash. Next time we do it, it will create no hoopla. It can simply be a planned function whenever the price rises to a certain point. It could be done perhaps any time the trading value of a Dash gets close to $10 (manually on a case by case bases or automatically) It doesn't change any Dash holder's value (exchanges would simply automatically make the existing price 1/10 of what it was) MNs would at that moment require 10,000 coins to run, etc....

    Ultimately, it's just a matter of how a Dash is displayed. Moving the decimal point over by one.

    I'm sure the trolls would give us flack, but that would not mean much, especially since there is already precedence in the stock market. I sincerely think that it would increase volume and price, which are important for functionality. I may sound like I want to increase the value of my own coins, and of course I do, but this is also needed for Dash to function. We will be ready for mass adoption soon, we need volume and market cap closer to Bitcoin's current for starters, and obviously far more later when Dash becomes one of the top payment services.

    Setting the wallet to mDASH just doesn't cut it, it's not set that way in the exchanges.

    I'm talking about bringing new money into the system from the outside, so speaking to those not in this space for the past 5 years. It's easier for Bitcoin to cost so much per unit, as they're the first and they advertise as being "a store of value". We're advertised as being cash. We need liquidity even more than Bitcoin and so I think we should consider doing anything we can to kick this up a notch.
     
    #1 TanteStefana, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
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  2. xdashguy

    xdashguy Member

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    I have been arguing for this for months now. It not only increases "liquidity" in terms of dash, but it increases market cap which also adoption. Look at http://coinmarketcap.com/

    All the highest ranking new coins are coins with extremely large number of coin supply. Ethereum has 81 million, Nem has 9 billion, Ripple has 35 billion, etc. Dash is getting killed by its low total supply.


    There is a strong psychological element to buying something. Getting 1 dash for $10 seems like a "worse deal" than getting 10 dash for $10, even if there are 10x the number of coins in the latter case. This is just human psychology. The brain is not naturally setup to calculate total supply of a thing when determining value. This takes an extra analytical step which many people do not do or do halfassedly.

    A coin is priced on the margin. That means, the market is really determined by the supply and demand available for offer and not so much on its total supply. If 5 million bitcion went for sale tomorrow the price would crash and the market cap would crash even though no new bitcoins were created. Because ultimately, pricing is on the margin.

    The total supply has a huge effect in this scenerio. A coin gets priced on the margin, but when calculating its "market cap" it considers total supply. As a result, some coins with an incredible total supply (like the ones previously mentioned) get incredible market cap valuations. Ultimately, the market cap is a useless number. However, it is an important number when convincing a new investor or user in the legitimacy of the coin.
     
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  3. xdashguy

    xdashguy Member

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    Btw, given what I said above, I would go even one step further. Do a 1/100 split. That way Dash coins in existence will reach 650 million. The price will go down 1/100, but everyone will have 100x more coins. The price will be about 7 cents. Psychology, someone being able to buy 1 unit of a digital currency for 7 cents feels a lot better. It doesn't matter if it is only worth 7 cents USD. Many people just want to own some digital currency and are not looking at it in terms of what it could buy in USD terms.

    In addition, at 7 cents, I expect the price would quickly rise to at least 15 cents as it is harder for people to judge value at those smaller numbers and due to the belief that a low price like that will have more "up side". So, it would almost double the current market cap, increase dash volume in terms of dash, and make the coin more attractive to new users.
     
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  4. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Moved from testnet thread
     
  5. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    You know, this money hose thing is neat and all, but that's what shitcoins worry about.

    Dash is meant to gain value by not sucking and not being just another shitcoin.

    Conversations like this are exactly what's holding DASH back. Instead of scheming a manipulation of the market, do something to get DASH used in retail.

    That's how it works in DASH. Unfortunately, nobody is doing it. All that happens is scheming more ponzi shit, following the shitcoin path.

    You see, you wonder why DASH isn't moving, while not doing the thing that moves it. You do what moves shitcoins, and DASH isn't a shitcoin...
     
    #5 camosoul, Jun 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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  6. ldw

    ldw New Member

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    Not "all" of them, the nbr 1 bitcoin has a lower total supply.

    I think one of the main reason why people are interested in crypto-currency is the limited supply, meaning they do look at the total supply of a coin...
     
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  7. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Moderator
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    Actually, I'm trying to figure out how to increase market cap so that Dash can function. We need it to have a large enough market cap to stabilize in price and be ready for mass adoption. All this would do, as explained, is move the decimal point over by one, two, or three. It really isn't changing anything real, and it's exactly what has been discussed about Bitcoin back since the beginning - that the coins can be easily be divided by moving the decimal point over, and it would not matter at all. It would only make it easier to read your coin's value. This is nothing new. It'll never happen for Bitcoin, because nothing will ever happen in Bitcoin again. However, Dash is nimble and can do whatever it wants to make it more useful and understandable for the average person. That is why I think this would be a good precedent to establish. Can you imagine going to the store to buy a pack of gum for 0.0001355164646546468 BTC? How does a person establish if it's a good price? What if there are fewer 0s than there should be (making it 10X more expensive than it should be?) and you don't notice? It's confusing, and by keeping the # of coins on the right side of the decimal point within $10 USD or $10 Euro per coin Dash would remain more useful to the average person.

    Plus, again, I think there is a psychological barrier to the average person in buying 0.235 Dash vs 23.5 Dash. It makes absolutely NO difference in Dash fundamentals, Dash "real" coin supply or anything. It's just making it easier for non-crypto nerds to value their coins. Dash is supposed to be a service, a replacement for cash; usable. Not a silly "store of value" like Bitcoin. Not like Gold Bars, but like gold coins, only even more flexible being weightless and free to travel anywhere.

    If that were the case, please tell me why NEM is worth 94 million right now? It has nothing but some stupid articles that don't name names (of banks, etc, they claim will use their services) and reeks of scam. And Dash will only have a total supply of 16 million when measured more accurately (we've almost always have been at minimum rewards - or close to it) which is far less than even Bitcoin. The coin "42" has only 42 coins, does that make it more valuable than Dash? How about Unobtainium? LOL, no, it's not even a part of the fundamentals of Dash. Each coin is an arbitrary % of the whole of what will be mined.

    Besides, I'm only suggesting we make this a normal part of Dash to keep it usable. So whenever Dash gains $10 price, it's split X 10 to bring price down again for a single unit. Make it a normal function of Dash which will keep it easier to understand for the user. That's all this is. Sure, we'll get a lot of people that troll us, saying what Camo says above, but in reality it doesn't change a bloody thing about Dash. It's the same as setting your wallet to mDash, etc... only it's far more profound psychologically and flexible for the future.

    And that's what I want for the future; to keep Dash flexible. You see what's happened to Bitcoin. It is completely locked up in carbonite like Han Solo, only nobody will ever save it.

    I want Dash to win ALL the users, to become the Visa of Crypto. For that, we need a stable and much higher market cap. This is a distasteful subject because of course I want my Dash to gain in value, no doubt, but my argument is actually for the functionality of Dash. A high market cap gives Dash usability, ie: one can buy a car with Dash and not have the seller move the price down 10% when he sells them. It's pretty lame not to be able to buy a car with Dash, unless you pay 10% more.

    Thanks for reading :)
     
    #7 TanteStefana, Jun 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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  8. methusaleh

    methusaleh Member

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    I like the idea, I think it could be a real help to adoption and ultimately to price.. and I think it really would get a LOT of the same comments as those from Camo above.
     
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  9. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Moderator
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    @methusaleh, I was also thinking that it's better to get those trolls out of the way sooner than later. So the sooner we do our first split, the better. What can a troll really say? That we've increased the supply? We haven't. It's fundamentals aren't changed, only the "reading". Just like a stock split, it's only dividing the whole, it's still the same whole.
     
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  10. ldw

    ldw New Member

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    I don't buy the XEM argument. It might be a pump'n'dump or it might be the japanese bussiness adoptation, but it certainly didn't reach the market cap because "large supply"...
    If you want to buy some gum with bitcoin, surely the price could simply be measured in the Bits unit (as is already standard with the bread wallet).
    Buy bubblegum with Dash? Show the price as mDash...
     
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  11. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    It would seem like a deception, to me.
    DASH trades on the open market in a respectable position.
    Yet all I can present is a Newbie opinion.
    rc
     
  12. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Moderator
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    Well, it certainly wouldn't be done without full warning and information being advertised. There shouldn't be any deception.
     
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  13. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    Exactly. It has no substantive impact. It looks like manipulation. Bitcoin has been talked about like this for ages, and it hasn't made any difference because it isn't a difference, and it's not the reason that retailers are allergic to BitClones. It's a thing you can do which will make no difference, and only look like manipulation.

    If "the average person" is so painfully stupid that they can't handle a few decimal spaces, then society needs to collapse. If that's really a complaint that people have, they're just too fucking stupid to be called people anymore. There has to be a limit where you stop enabling/encouraging retardation. This is fucking absurd...

    It doesn't even apply. Price tags on products are still stated in fiat values. The amount of DASH is dynamically converted, you send it, most people don't even question it. It's just a random number they skip right over anyway. Did you make a note of exactly how many fractions of a gallon of gas you put in your car, even though it costs a lot more than a dollar? This just isn't important.

    There are lots of discussions on the Internet. Lots of them about Crypto. Few of them are useful or even make sense... This is one of those which isn't and doesn't.
     
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  14. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    There will always be those who were not reached, and many more pretending not to trolling like mad whether they know it or not. Why fuck with it over something so petty and borderline irrelevant? You're making a mountain out of a molehill because you want there to be something you can do to affect adoption, so you imagine this to be a bigger deal than it really is.

    Instead of comign up with new and creative ways to re-hash the same old nonsense that has nothing to do with adoption and would ahve no impact even if you got your way, why not do something that matters?

    Talk to the retailers you visit over the next week about it. Conversation with real people...

    Think of DASH adoption like this...

    There's this big tank of water up over your head. It's like a bathtub.

    Instead of coming up with creative ways to try to reach way up ther, toss a hose over the edge, and start sucking... Why not just shoot a hole in the bottom?

    BitClones are a bulletproof tank. DASH isn't. Shoot the hole already, jeez! Quit coming up with this convoluted bullshit for a problem that exists in other coins, but not DASH. Quit trying to solve a problem the old way, when a new solution already exists. Just fuckin' do it already!
     
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  15. Voluntary

    Voluntary Member
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    Dude wants to turn a dollar into a dime? You don't stock-split for that, you just invent names for different denominations.
     
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  16. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    Yah, that's what the decimal point is for...
    Best
    rc
     
  17. BolehVPN

    BolehVPN Active Member

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    Although I made a lot of money off XEM and I like their project and what they're doing, I think a lot of the hype is misplaced.

    "Business adoption" in what they have achieved is not people using NEM. It's people using NEM tech. Basically people are using a modified version of NEM's technology to build their own private chains with their own set of rules and specifications to run their businesses. There is no current integration of these private chains to the main chain and there is still no clear way to do it (though I understand it is in the works). These private chains do not require fees to perform transactions on these chains. It is merely an efficient private blockchain system. These benefits do not go on the main chain.

    Their success had nothing to do with their low coin 'value' in my opinion. It had everything to do with their news releases on banks testing their technology and businesses going to use their tech on prominent sites like Bloomberg, ZAIF (a Japanese exchange) adding them and combined with the problems Eth was facing. People think it's NEM. Nope it's not, it's NEM technology. When people equate a crypto with 'real life businesses' then boom! (hence Eth). It did however bring a lot of attention to NEM which has the spotlight.

    With Dash, there is still no mainstream news coverage and no big businesses using it yet, and that's the issue, not the value. People don't see the real world utility of Dash. Now just see what happens when Dash is added to a large exchange or is featured that it's working with a big business or with a bank (one can only dream). We're still squarely stuck in the crypto sphere and 'devaluing' Dash doesn't achieve this and just gives the view that we're just artificially changing things to boost price.

    I am very against this idea.
     
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  18. halso

    halso Active Member
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    Good summary.

    I agree. I have suggested before that we should explore business partnerships.

    Even some experiments with the likes of western union or money gram could give us a real boost.
     
  19. BolehVPN

    BolehVPN Active Member

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    Money remittance services are direct competitors to Dash. Dash is about breaking free from this and giving the power to people who are holding stakes in Dash. Dash uses Bitcoin's blockchain so nothing really innovative about Dash's blockchain alone. It's what is built on top of it.

    NEM's strategy is different. They want to work directly with businesses like this and sell their blockchain solution as a private chain solution for these businesses hence it appeals to companies since they have total control with private chain. They then hope that these companies adopting them will give the public NEM better visibility and the possibility of linking these private chains in the future. They're taking a gamble here. They're also using POI (a modified version of PoS) that is also another big plus in their favour for integration for companies as I don't know how a PoW blockchain system would work for a private chain.
     
  20. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    halso...
    Experiments with those we compete directly with ?
    ...interesting...
    How would you envision that process ?
    rc
     
  21. halso

    halso Active Member
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    Competing can be costly and time consuming. If a Western Union or Moneygram knocked on our door 2mw and said:

    'hey, i've got hundreds of millions of customers and thousands of locations, can i have a customised portal into evolution for my customers?'

    What would you say?
     
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  22. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    I would say, " Thank You ! What a wonderful opportunity ! Are you willing to provide your remittance service at the fee ED has described ? "
    AFAIK, there is nothing preventing anyone from making use of DASH, at this present time !
    ...By golly ... They might be using DASH already !

    Best
    rc
     
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  23. halso

    halso Active Member
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    Why would u prescribe a fee? that would be a business decision for them.
     
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  24. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Moderator
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    First off, I love you camo, and I knew you'd absolutely hate this idea! LOL. Still I felt I had to bring it up and get a discussion going. I'll continue arguing for this "stock split" idea, but please don't take it personally. You can call it out as you see it and I won't take it personally either :D

    Here is one of the problems exactly. It's tough to know if you're getting a fair exchange rate from the seller. Why should you as a customer trust the seller's exchange rate? Aside from this stock split proposal, this issue might be solvable via the wallet, showing the equivalent exchange rate and the average going rate. That way the customer knows they're not being cheated :)

    And I can't argue with you on the fact that retail adoption is the most important goal we can have.

    Anyway, I'm glad you all came and participated in this discussion. I honestly think it would make a difference, but would it be worth the trouble and the troll onslaught? That I honestly don't know :)
     
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  25. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    :)
    My friend, Nothing is free in Waterworld !

    It requires a substantial payment to utility companies to operate a piece of computer equipment 24/7/365, not to mention the ISP and inevitable equipment excursions.
    There would be a business decision for everyone concerned, would there not ?

    Best
    rc
     
  26. halso

    halso Active Member
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    Not if they drive up the price of dash.
     
  27. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    It would seem to me that when something is 'driven' it is because of an artificial influence.
    ...which may very well collapse...

    I see no reason for the 'remittance companies' to exist much longer, as crypto transfer comes of age.
    DASH, in particular, is quite efficient, for anyone with cell phone service.

    Best
    rc
     
  28. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Moderator
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    They may still have a place for many years to come as the immigrant population get paid via fiat cash, with no ability to bank and have to send that cash back home. How do they buy crypto? Sure, maybe some day there will be ATMs etc... but probably not where their families live for a long long time. Hopefully I'm wrong and those will be the first people to fully use crypto, and it won't have to be changed into fiat on the other end again??
     
  29. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    Actually, I have no idea where a WU office is... Almost every person I speak with has a cell phone.
    Only 1 member in a group of workers would need a mobile wallet to deal with transactions...
    As we get off the beaten path, into smaller villages and pueblos, there will most likely be no WU or especially a bank.
    P2P would serve small communities well, as it would for global transfers.

    Could you tell I'm actually pretty excited about the possibilities offered by DASH !!!

    Best
    rc
     
  30. Bugeater

    Bugeater Member

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    This is an excellent idea. We just basically stop using DASH as the main unit and use DeciDash instead. 65 million of them. Update the wallet to show decidash.

    Being worth 70cents instead of 7 dollars would be great. Probably would instantly be pumped to $2 (old $20) just on people liking the idea. Excellent idea. Takes 10,000 decidash to have a MN. Simple. Awesome idea.
     
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