Dash "stock split"

camosoul

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Sep 19, 2014
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First off, I love you camo, and I knew you'd absolutely hate this idea! LOL. Still I felt I had to bring it up and get a discussion going. I'll continue arguing for this "stock split" idea, but please don't take it personally. You can call it out as you see it and I won't take it personally either :D



Here is one of the problems exactly. It's tough to know if you're getting a fair exchange rate from the seller. Why should you as a customer trust the seller's exchange rate? Aside from this stock split proposal, this issue might be solvable via the wallet, showing the equivalent exchange rate and the average going rate. That way the customer knows they're not being cheated :)

And I can't argue with you on the fact that retail adoption is the most important goal we can have.

Anyway, I'm glad you all came and participated in this discussion. I honestly think it would make a difference, but would it be worth the trouble and the troll onslaught? That I honestly don't know :)
It will result in nothing but trolling in exchange for a pretend benefit.

If customers want to know if the exchange rate is good or acceptable, that info should be part of the transaction. Screen shows qr, dash amount, dollar amount, exchange rate. If you don't consent, don't. Same as a cashier showing you the total before you swipe your debit card. You're agreeing to the terms of the transaction as displayed. If you think the rate is bogus, bye bye!

Not hard. Not new.

Dude, thats what grandma said!
 

Bridgewater

Well-known Member
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Dec 14, 2014
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Isn't one of the primary uses of Evolution to make crypto easier to use?

AFAIK, Evolution does not touch the underlying stable, predictable, visible, reliable, un-gameable etc. monetary layer. Instead, front-end software talks to the network through the DAPI, so in theory you can run whatever interface with whatever features you want, denominate and call it whatever you want, with user names and other "human-readable" clickable rainbows (lonecrouton style) for sending/receiving money. Complete segregation from the complex base-layer that is actually doing the heavy lifting behind the scenes. Ideas like these should be part of the long-term Evolution discussion, IMO. Don't mess around with something that's not broken, and is the stable investment that other systems rely on.
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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If customers want to know if the exchange rate is good or acceptable, that info should be part of the transaction. Screen shows qr, dash amount, dollar amount, exchange rate. If you don't consent, don't. Same as a cashier showing you the total before you swipe your debit card. You're agreeing to the terms of the transaction as displayed. If you think the rate is bogus, bye bye!
Agreed. I am very much opposed to the idea of doing a "stock split" -- if people don't like low decimals then vendors will start displaying a different denomination on their own, like mBTC.
I do think it would be a good thing though for wallets or other transaction software, to have the option to display equivalent values in whichever currency the user prefers to see that in addition to or in place of the DASH values.
 

xdashguy

Member
Feb 9, 2016
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Oh look, another coin has displaced Dash. And what do you know, it has 80 million currency units. Like usual, my predictions are dead on. Pretty soon dash will be #30th coin. Not due to interest, but due to psychology of currencies with large number of units.

Looking at the top 10 coins (other than dash) every single coin is either 45 million units or higher or the first coin ever created.

Dash is not the first coin ever created (that is bitcoin), so there is no way it can compete against coins with millions of units.

It is great that Dash will choose to ignore the necessity to have more units in order to be competitive. Its downward trend to obscurity will be interesting to watch.
 
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xdashguy

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Feb 9, 2016
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Oh, whadayaknow? I was using this "other coin" at the gas station and wal mart just now... Manipulating market cap with fraudulent liquidity totally works!
Considering that nearly every one of these coins also has more liquidity / volume than Dash I would say that YES it does work. The most important value of an asset besides its volatility is its liquidity.
 

tungfa

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Considering that nearly every one of these coins also has more liquidity / volume than Dash I would say that YES it does work. The most important value of an asset besides its volatility is its liquidity.
u can not compare that
dash has the masternodes - all others are pure trading coins
 

rustycase

Active Member
Apr 19, 2016
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As said above, there must indeed be great value in a coin that is designed for utility purpose, as opposed to a market trading venture.

I shall need to go long on DASH.
It only seems reasonable.

I do enjoy day trading.
There are any number of coins to play with that seem to have wide market volatility.
BTC, well, the dragon controls that.

YMMV
rc
 

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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The concept of ponzi trading in crypto grows out of the fact that it's not good for anything else.

Dash is good for a lot of else.

But the ponzi heads can't fathom it. They want Dash to be more ponzi?

That's not what Dash is for. Dash is for fulfilling the promises that BitClones can't. Not being yet another useless abbreviation to be Ouija Boarded by ponzi-mentality losers.

This thread is an embarrassment to Dash. Kill it with fire.



Don't make him repeat himself:
There are shiloads of shitcoins with shitloads of supply and shitloads of decimal points in the wrong place. We could just run on duffs and forget the decimal point... Whatever man...
 
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Friend

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Mar 17, 2017
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People who oppose TanteStefana idea, probably underestimate the fact, that most people are influenced by very strong psychological effects.
This proposed change may seem pointless or unnecessary, but it was proven in many experiments, that people favor some numbers over other.

It would be easier for grandma to comprehend value of dash, without decimals (or with maximum 2 digits), like it is now with standard fiat currency. ( i.e. it is much easier to pay 33 dash for sandwich instead of 0,033)

if people don't like low decimals then vendors will start displaying a different denomination on their own
It's possible but it's not what users are familiar with. If we want to be digital cash lets give users digits they are familiar with (whole numbers in daily use and maximum 2 decimal places)
We could just run on duffs and forget the decimal point
We could but duff is not our primary, well recognized, token name.

People mostly refer to 1 Dash as 1$ or 1 £.
It is important (for user experience) to hold in some frames of value (not exceed 1000, and don't go below 0,01 in daily usage).
I.e. if coffee costs more than 1000 of some currency, this currency is less convenient with every 0 we add.
The effect is even stronger with decimal digits. 0,01 for a pack of matches is the bottom line of usefulness of currency. (most people are not comfortable with paying 0,0012 for anything. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-psychology-of-decimals-1384986908/)

As for today dash price (89$), 3 decimal point shift would be probably the best (firs and the last one needed, including future adoption rise).

//"Investing" by many people in other, "cheaper" shitcoins is another topic, but in my opinion, it could only drive more unexperienced users to buy serious, long term currency with strong fundaments -> DASH (instead of scam/shit coins). (Win-Win)

But don't trust me on this. Do your own research, ask people from numbers/price marketing and psychologists. Many studies have been made on similar topics.

Edit: typos
 
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dashly

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Mar 5, 2017
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People who oppose TanteStefana idea, probably underestimate the fact, that most people are influenced by, very strong psychological effects.
This proposed change may seem pointless or unnecessary, but it was proven, in many experiments, that people favor some numbers, over other.

It would be easier for grandma, to comprehend value of dash, without decimals (or with maximum 2 digits), like it is now with standard fiat currency. ( i.e. it is much easier to pay 33 dash for sandwich instead of 0,033)


It's possible but it's not what users are familiar with. If we want to be digital cash lets give users digits they are familiar with (whole numbers in daily use and maximum 2 decimal places)

We could but duff is not our primary, well recognized, token name.

People mostly refer to 1 Dash as 1$ or 1 £.
It is important (for user experience) to hold in some frames of value (not exceed 1000, and don't go below 0,01 in daily usage).
I.e. if coffee costs more than 1000 of some currency, this currency is less convenient with every 0 we add.
The effect is even stronger with decimal pints. 0,01 for a pack of matches is the bottom line of usefulness of currency. (most people are not comfortable with paying 0,0012 for anything. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-psychology-of-decimals-1384986908/)

As for today dash price (89$), 3 decimal point shift would be probably the best (firs and the last one needed, including future adoption rise).

//"Investing" by many people in other, "cheaper" shitcoins is another topic, but in my opinion, it could only drive more unexperienced users, to buy serious, long term currency with strong fundaments -> DASH (instead of scam/shit coins). (Win-Win)

But don't trust me on this. Do your own research, ask people from numbers/price marketing and psychologists. Many studies have been made on similar topics.
Yes, there is a clear psychological barrier to purchasing based on price. Average people don't understand the concept of market cap. That's part of the reason, Ripple's at $14 billion market cap, ethereum's $9 billion, and nem's $2 billion.

I proposed to solve this a different way in another thread, but most people aren't interested.
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/changing-the-definition-of-a-unit-of-dash.14253/

Split to me isn't necessarily a bad idea. It's not fraudulent liquidity as suggested because it would double holdings for all holders of Dash, unlike our current monetary system where currency is generated by banks out of thin air for only the benefit of banks.
 

TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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@Friend @TanteStefana alright so when I made that previous post, the price of Dash was $7. Now that the value of a dash is $90 and am still bullish on the price, I am more open to looking into this option moving forward. If there is sound research that indicates that this is a psychological barrier and it is feasible to pull off, then I would not oppose it. Would need to be a 100 to 1 split minimum, perhaps even 1000 to 1.
 

Gunna

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Apr 9, 2017
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If it is a psychological barrier then have the wallet display both the transaction cost in Fiat and Dash.

Buy a coffee for $3.60, go to pay and payment screen displays the fiat amount of $3.60 and the equivalent in dash in decimal format that will be deducted based on the exchange rate at the time. It does 2 things, it ties dash's value to something they are familiar with - Fiat. Second thing it does is starts to educate users that a fraction of a dash hold real value with their purchases.
 

dashly

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Mar 5, 2017
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If it is a psychological barrier then have the wallet display both the transaction cost in Fiat and Dash.

Buy a coffee for $3.60, go to pay and payment screen displays the fiat amount of $3.60 and the equivalent in dash in decimal format that will be deducted based on the exchange rate at the time. It does 2 things, it ties dash's value to something they are familiar with - Fiat. Second thing it does is starts to educate users that a fraction of a dash hold real value with their purchases.
That's the existing solution, and yes we could update the wallet, but that does very little to solve the problem. We do not have control over 3rd party wallets, and we do not have control on how exchanges present Dash. They will most likely continue to display Dash they way they do today, and the price of Dash will remain a psychological barrier for most users. Bitcoin has been discussing this for a very long time and it is now approaching $2000, yet they have still not started using different denominations. @TanteStefana has made some very good points. If we want people to view Dash as digital cash, it needs to represent a more meaningful number. If we did do a 1 to 100 or 1 to 1000 crypto split, it would add a ton of liquidity as new users poured into Dash.

From a user's standpoint, does it make more sense to buy a cup of coffee with 0.04 Dash or 4 Dash? I think it would be great for Dash and also spawn a ton of press.

And from an average investor's standpoint who doesn't have a full grasp of market cap, would you rather buy 1 Dash for $100 USD or 300 Ripple for $100 USD. The results speak for themselves... Plug Ethereum, NEM, or Litecoin in that equation.
 

solarguy

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Mar 15, 2017
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While I think that moving the decimal place will not accelerate the adoption of Dash, I don't think it would harm the Dash ecosystem either (after further reflection).

If you propose it, I would vote yes and would be interested to see the outcome. 100:1 split would put it right on par with the US dollar. That's as easy as it gets.

Where it gets complicated, is determining if such a 100:1 split actually had any effect. In the last two days, we zoomed up 10% in value, without the 100:1 split.

If we had just enacted the split, it would be tempting to say we jumped up in value because of the split.

If we enact the split, and the price remains stable, one could argue that we just avoided a big drop in value because of the split.

Those that are in favor of a split, how would you evaluate success?


Any comment from Baby Giraffe or anybody from the Core team on a "stock split"?
 

Friend

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Mar 17, 2017
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If it is a psychological barrier then have the wallet display both the transaction cost in Fiat and Dash.

Buy a coffee for $3.60, go to pay and payment screen displays the fiat amount of $3.60 and the equivalent in dash in decimal format that will be deducted based on the exchange rate at the time. It does 2 things, it ties dash's value to something they are familiar with - Fiat. Second thing it does is starts to educate users that a fraction of a dash hold real value with their purchases.
Yes. That is generally good approach. I also believe that people should be educated in many aspects. I.e. using text console in linux is a good way, to gain knowledge and deeper understanding of operating system.
On the other hand lowering knowledge entry barrier makes technology spread faster. I.e. android is linux with low knowledge requirements for daily use.

Making this innovative change would adjust our project to majority minds (to their comfort zone of numbers perception). We would be probably the first project with such approach, but this is what I understand as User oriented software.

People can instantly get what they are familiar with.
Your example with price is excellent: $3.60 and the equivalent in dash: 0.0367 dash.
First number is ok, we are all used to it. But something like 0.0367 is proven to be repulsive for most people.

To make dash, digital cash, lets make it "feel" like cash also in terms of digits -> "36.7 dash for your coffee, Sir".

Even with future 10 times price increase it is 3.67 dash (not 0.00367 dash) for coffee which is acceptable.
(With 100 times price increase... than we can probably get away with third decimal place :))

Other way most people will stick to think in terms of $, not Dash, while using our digital cash.

Edit: Price speculation, market cap, new "small" investors is another topic. Main reason for us should be user experience. Price increase may be (or not) only pleasant side effect.
 
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TheBigCat

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Apr 30, 2017
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Would someone please tell me what mDash is? Thanks [emoji851]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Friend

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Would someone please tell me what mDash is? Thanks [emoji851]
I belive that "m" stands for mili (0,001). That would be 0,001 of one dash.
But mDash may be name of some new digital currency as well :)
It's not standardized yet.
 

block

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Mar 23, 2017
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Exactly. It has no substantive impact. It looks like manipulation. Bitcoin has been talked about like this for ages, and it hasn't made any difference because it isn't a difference, and it's not the reason that retailers are allergic to BitClones. It's a thing you can do which will make no difference, and only look like manipulation.

If "the average person" is so painfully stupid that they can't handle a few decimal spaces, then society needs to collapse. If that's really a complaint that people have, they're just too fucking stupid to be called people anymore. There has to be a limit where you stop enabling/encouraging retardation. This is fucking absurd...

It doesn't even apply. Price tags on products are still stated in fiat values. The amount of DASH is dynamically converted, you send it, most people don't even question it. It's just a random number they skip right over anyway. Did you make a note of exactly how many fractions of a gallon of gas you put in your car, even though it costs a lot more than a dollar? This just isn't important.

There are lots of discussions on the Internet. Lots of them about Crypto. Few of them are useful or even make sense... This is one of those which isn't and doesn't.
I agree that it has no substantive impact on most areas, but a split would increase the liquidity of the coin. A quick google search shows that stock splits are done by companies for a good reason... a split increases the $$ volumes that trade, which over time reduces the volatility of the price.

Edit: I know that coins differ from stocks in that they can be broken down, where a single share cannot be portioned off, but I would argue that the psychological impact is meaningful.
 

Tallyho

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Mar 15, 2015
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I understand the problem but I think comparing dash to dollar or euro is misleading as colloquially nobody pays 0.9 euros for a coffee either. Rather it's 90 cents and everybody understands that a euro is made of 100 cents, a dollar is made of 100 cents, a pound is made of 100 pence. I'd be far more in favour of popularising dash-cents with one name or another. Duff does sound too much like toy money or something from The Simpsons.

That said, with Dash over $100, dash-cents (shents? dents? :D ) may not be granular enough, and people aren't used to dealing in millidollars or millieuros...
 

solarguy

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Mar 15, 2017
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It might help, psychologically, to do a 100:1 split. It might, let's try it.

BUT, what is the criterion for deciding if it worked or not.

If we are going to go to all the trouble to change it, we had better have some idea of how we would define success.

"I'll know it when I see it." isn't good enough.

A well designed marketing survey could get you that information, with emphasis on well designed. No leading questions, no obvious "right" answers, etc etc etc.
 
May 3, 2017
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I am all for tipping others with whole coins. Rather than being stingy with 0.002 Dash. mDash is backwards....I tried that crap with mBTC. Lot's of room for newer coins to get it right where BTC and Dash have failed.
 

Tallyho

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Mar 15, 2015
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I'm concerned that moving the decimal now might do more harm than good. It could look to the wider market as though Dash had devalued and were dead, or as though the coin supply had been increased à la Ripple. Dash already has plenty of hate over adjusting the coin supply once before. And then there would be confusion over the old and new dash units, which would probably see them being referred to as "old dash" and "new dash" as people sought to clarify whether they were referring to the units before or after the split. Aren't such splits in regular stocks and currencies usually accompanied by a name change to help with that distinction? When Turkey revalued their Lira the opposite way they waited until it was as simple as dropping the "million" off the end. I agree with @solarguy that proper research would need to be done before making such a critical change.
 
May 3, 2017
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I'm concerned that moving the decimal now might do more harm than good. It could look to the wider market as though Dash had devalued and were dead, or as though the coin supply had been increased à la Ripple. Dash already has plenty of hate over adjusting the coin supply once before. And then there would be confusion over the old and new dash units, which would probably see them being referred to as "old dash" and "new dash" as people sought to clarify whether they were referring to the units before or after the split. Aren't such splits in regular stocks and currencies usually accompanied by a name change to help with that distinction? When Turkey revalued their Lira the opposite way they waited until it was as simple as dropping the "million" off the end. I agree with @solarguy that proper research would need to be done before making such a critical change.
Ya.....I need to re-think Dash.
 

solarguy

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"Ya.....I need to re-think Dash."

Isn't it great that you now have a choice what currency you want to store your wealth in, and what currency you want to use to send money to people? Crypto in general, and Dash in particular, have given you real and meaningful alternatives to your local fiat currency. Feel free to choose. We have re-invented open and free markets.
 

Friend

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Mar 17, 2017
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I'm concerned that moving the decimal now might do more harm than good. It could look to the wider market as though Dash had devalued and were dead, or as though the coin supply had been increased à la Ripple. Dash already has plenty of hate over adjusting the coin supply once before. And then there would be confusion over the old and new dash units, which would probably see them being referred to as "old dash" and "new dash" as people sought to clarify whether they were referring to the units before or after the split. Aren't such splits in regular stocks and currencies usually accompanied by a name change to help with that distinction? When Turkey revalued their Lira the opposite way they waited until it was as simple as dropping the "million" off the end. I agree with @solarguy that proper research would need to be done before making such a critical change.
To weight gains and looses, we clearly need more professional knowledge.

Most of us agree that problem exist, but some question marks prevent us from taking action (i.e. how big this problem really is?)
Professional survey (made by scientists working on this field) or study on this exact topic, could be founded from our treasury. Does anybody have sufficient knowledge or connections on any University/professional firm?

Simultaneously, maybe core developers could kindly describe problem from technical point of view (I know they are very busy).

Is it even possible, how much time consuming, is it better to split each coin (1,00000000 --> 1000,00000000) or simply move the comma/point (1,00000000 --> 1000,00000).
(IMHO by moving comma/point we could easily fight off haters saying that "coin supply had been increased à la Ripple". But on second thought, haters always are and will be, whatever action we take or change we do.)

One thing I fear most. That we will become (or maybe we already are?) to big, and to frightened to make critical, but necessary moves and, in some time, end up like Bitcoin (in terms of usefulness, not price :().
 
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May 3, 2017
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One thing I fear most. That we will become (or maybe we already are?) to big, and to frightened to make critical, but necessary moves and, in some time, end up like Bitcoin (in terms of usefulness, not price :().
Worry about haters...Lol. Is Dash is following the steps of Bitcoin. Nil nimble. It feels like it.....and tipping people in fractions of coin is super retarded. I am truly on crossroads with Dash (great aspects and retarded aspects in one coin).