Dash "stock split"

camosoul

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Sep 19, 2014
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That said, with Dash over $100, dash-cents (shents? dents? :D ) may not be granular enough, and people aren't used to dealing in millidollars or millieuros...
We can reach down only so far. What will the exceptionally lazy or the exceptionally stupid do with their HD seed words?

If you can't understand how a decimal point works, you'll just have to stay on the plantation. Some people shouldn't go outside without a diaper and a helmet.

Please show me the coin being developed specifically to cater to retarded people? I'm not fucking around. I mean it.

No, DOGE not included. :p

The fact that this is even a conversation topic is sad... Has being morbidly stupid really become that commonplace?
 

TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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We can reach down only so far. What will the exceptionally lazy or the exceptionally stupid do with their HD seed words?

If you can't understand how a decimal point works, you'll just have to stay on the plantation. Some people shouldn't go outside without a diaper and a helmet.

Please show me the coin being developed specifically to cater to retarded people? I'm not fucking around. I mean it.

No, DOGE not included. :p

The fact that this is even a conversation topic is sad... Has being morbidly stupid really become that commonplace?
There's a difference between calling people morbidly stupid, versus acknowledging that human behavior is often heavily influenced by things that are not always rational. It's amazing what a few logical fallacies or uncorrelated associations will do to make the difference between millions of people buying a product or not. *IF* there is data that shows that this actually makes a significant difference then I'm not going to ignore it.
 
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CaptainPicard

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Btw, given what I said above, I would go even one step further. Do a 1/100 split. That way Dash coins in existence will reach 650 million. The price will go down 1/100, but everyone will have 100x more coins. The price will be about 7 cents. Psychology, someone being able to buy 1 unit of a digital currency for 7 cents feels a lot better. It doesn't matter if it is only worth 7 cents USD. Many people just want to own some digital currency and are not looking at it in terms of what it could buy in USD terms.

In addition, at 7 cents, I expect the price would quickly rise to at least 15 cents as it is harder for people to judge value at those smaller numbers and due to the belief that a low price like that will have more "up side". So, it would almost double the current market cap, increase dash volume in terms of dash, and make the coin more attractive to new users.
Some years ago, I would have scoffed at this idea, but the more newbies I talk to about crypto the more I realize how much the "price" in USD matters, they naturally prefer a coin that is lower "priced" no matter what the supply is.

It sounds silly for anyone that follows crypto but I've seen it over and over, people prefer buying lower priced coins. They think they are getting "more".

I've even seen this effect with fiat money. People think oh wow, one dollar = 3000 pesos in Colombia, it must be really cheap there! Well actually, it doesn't matter what the denomination is - it matters what you can buy - if a beer costs 10000 pesos it's not cheaper than a $3 beer!!

This is the only reason they split stocks, it's psychological, people buy lower priced things.

Bitcoin seems "expensive" to people at $2000 per coin and ripple "cheap" at 30 cents ... I shake my head but that's how most people seem to think. They don't compute the supply side at all.
 

Gunna

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Some years ago, I would have scoffed at this idea, but the more newbies I talk to about crypto the more I realize how much the "price" in USD matters, they naturally prefer a coin that is lower "priced" no matter what the supply is.

It sounds silly for anyone that follows crypto but I've seen it over and over, people prefer buying lower priced coins. They think they are getting "more".

I've even seen this effect with fiat money. People think oh wow, one dollar = 3000 pesos in Colombia, it must be really cheap there! Well actually, it doesn't matter what the denomination is - it matters what you can buy - if a beer costs 10000 pesos it's not cheaper than a $3 beer!!

This is the only reason they split stocks, it's psychological, people buy lower priced things.

Bitcoin seems "expensive" to people at $2000 per coin and ripple "cheap" at 30 cents ... I shake my head but that's how most people seem to think. They don't compute the supply side at all.
The comparison to fiat is dangerous though. Also alot of those people want cheap coins to pump and dump. They aren't in it for the long term.

Dash has climbed 30% this week I think.

If we change the decimal point by a thousandth so each dash is is worth $0.130 instead of $130

What happens when\if dash climbs again so each dash is worth $1, $10 etc. You'll still be working in fractions still. Also Eth currently has a circulating supply of nearly 92 million, Dash has 7.3 Million. Eth is at the time of this $198.23 and Dash $149.17, I don't think our smaller supply has much of an impact when people are trying to tie it to fiat for value.
 

Friend

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If you can't understand how a decimal point works, you'll just have to stay on the plantation. Some people shouldn't go outside without a diaper and a helmet.

Please show me the coin being developed specifically to cater to retarded people? I'm not fucking around. I mean it.

No, DOGE not included. upload_2017-5-24_16-47-17.png

The fact that this is even a conversation topic is sad... Has being morbidly stupid really become that commonplace?
You Sir, are very right in some aspects :)

On the other hand, what are the purposes of developing Evolution, in your opinion? If not simplification and reaching to less technical people, than what? This lady explains it quite reasonably:
Start 2 minutes 16 seconds:
and 12 second:

Probably, in your surrounding, you don't experience "average" people mathematical skills.

Believe me or not, but in UK the promotions in supermarkets are like "Buy 2 get 1 free", in part, because "average" people do not comprehend percentage concept sufficiently to understand something like "xx% more" promotion.

In my opinion conversation is generally good idea. If we are that wrong, I in particular would be very grateful to someone, for leading me out of my misunderstanding.

If we change the decimal point by a thousandth so each dash is is worth $0.130 instead of $130

What happens when\if dash climbs again so each dash is worth $1, $10 etc. You'll still be working in fractions still. Also Eth currently has a circulating supply of nearly 92 million, Dash has 7.3 Million. Eth is at the time of this $198.23 and Dash $149.17, I don't think our smaller supply has much of an impact when people are trying to tie it to fiat for value.
1$ is very good price rise. 10$ is still good, because people are used to two decimal places in their national currency, in most developed countries (US, UK and rest of EU).

Problem may arise in several ways:

1. Dash rise 1000 times. Back then, market capitalization would be huge! Probably this would make us close to world use -> roughly 20 times bigger than bitcoin is now. It wouldn't happen over night and people have time to adapt.
But now we are in our infancy, so we have to adapt to users.

2. Some other currencies use mostly whole and big numbers. I.e 1$=112 Yen (Japanese Yen). For them it would still be some "problem" with decimals in the near future.

3. People in third world and some Asian countries earn 100$/month. For them everyday use is limited to fractions of dollar. 1 dash is their month salary...
-----------------------
I don't want to go into price speculation with other crypto (Eth is one example. Ripple, NEM, Bytecoin, Stelar Lumens, Dogecoin, Golem are some different examples). Too many factors at the moment.

Have you read this: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-psychology-of-decimals-1384986908/ ?

Usability is simpler to discuss for now.
---------------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion, 3 place decimal shift is minimal at current price (not sure if optimal). I can't estimate all consequences of more decimal places shift, thus I don't propose more. Too much digits in daily use (10000 for coffee) is also bad.

Even with hypothetical 10 times price drop dash would still be like 1 cent. As long as it is 1 cent and over, it's ok.

//Our "true" supply is at the moment 7,315,074 x 100000000 = 731,507,400,000,000 of smallest currency units (dufs).

//Edit: tons of typos
 
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TanteStefana

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I'm concerned that moving the decimal now might do more harm than good. It could look to the wider market as though Dash had devalued and were dead, or as though the coin supply had been increased à la Ripple. Dash already has plenty of hate over adjusting the coin supply once before. And then there would be confusion over the old and new dash units, which would probably see them being referred to as "old dash" and "new dash" as people sought to clarify whether they were referring to the units before or after the split. Aren't such splits in regular stocks and currencies usually accompanied by a name change to help with that distinction? When Turkey revalued their Lira the opposite way they waited until it was as simple as dropping the "million" off the end. I agree with @solarguy that proper research would need to be done before making such a critical change.
Actually, it's true that we'd be the first, and therefore the trolls will come out in droves. But the FACT that it makes NO difference structurally, in any way and is akin to the long established practice of splitting stocks, I think we can EASILY defend it, and I also think it's necessary for ease of use, which is what we're all about. I would do a minimum 1000X stock split so we don't have to do it again any time soon. You may think I'm mad, but there is a good possibility that Dash will be 1000 USD in the upcoming year, IMO.

@camosoul I understand what you're saying, and sure, future generations can learn money the crypto way, but math confuses a huge segment of the population. They're not even below average in intelligence, but they ARE NOT math oriented. And you throw something weird looking at them, they'll reject it. We only have nerds investing in crypto right now, we want AVERAGE people USING Dash. For that, we need to make it familiar. It's a usability thing. I really hope Ryan has at least thought about this subject ;)
 
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Fount4inhead

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I think we should do this. Does it automatically change for exchanges or would they need to make their own adjustments? It would be good to be the first coin to do this also. I also think traders would see this as bullish.
 

Ctafti

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I would like to add my voice that I agree that switching the Unit of dash down 1 to 3 decimal places will be good for the coin. Has anyone reached out to the core team asking for their opinion/ if they will agree to implement the change if there is a consensus for it?
 

ThisMustBeTrue

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I also think that dash should do a split so that 1 future dash equals 1,000 current dash. The psychology behind it is real. Alternatively we could agree upon names for different divisions of the coin something like I laid out below.

0.12345678 Dash
= 12.345678 Deft
= 1,234.5678 Div
= 123,456.78 Dot
= 12,345,678 Duff

What would be easier, adding 3 decimal places to the supply or getting everyone to agree on standard names for different divisions? I think it would be easier for us to change the unit and it would also help bring in new users from a psychological perspective.
 

mikenewhouse

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Posted a similar thought on the reddit page today /r/dashpay/comments/6et003/thoughts_on_massscale_adoption_why_one_dash_might/

I'm wondering could an intermediary step be put in place?

So that 1 Dash = avg price of 1 cup of coffee = #X tokens

In this setup the "Dash" wouldn't be tied to the token but rather a physical commodity and would allow for the rise and fall of the commodity price of the tokens without any real world impact. This would be reported as 1 Dash = 1 cup of coffee and 1 RenamedToken = $140

It would essentially be separating the front end and backend components of the purchase.
 

solarguy

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Ahem....

I would politely and respectfully ask again. Let's say we actually do this.

HOW DO WE KNOW IF IT WORKED OR NOT?

If a goal is not measurable and achievable, it's just wishful thinking.
 

mikenewhouse

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Ahem....

I would politely and respectfully ask again. Let's say we actually do this.

HOW DO WE KNOW IF IT WORKED OR NOT?

If a goal is not measurable and achievable, it's just wishful thinking.
I think it would be fairly trivial to do some UX experience testing (even in advance) to validate that users prefer to purchase items in whole numbers vs. decimals. Such a test would be to show a new crypto user several options of purchase pages with the different valuations and to ask them questions about they perceive the cost of the item and whether they would purchase it or not.
 

solarguy

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I think it would be fairly trivial to do some UX experience testing (even in advance) to validate that users prefer to purchase items in whole numbers vs. decimals. Such a test would be to show a new crypto user several options of purchase pages with the different valuations and to ask them questions about they perceive the cost of the item and whether they would purchase it or not.

Now we're talking.

I think it is not quite trivial to have a well designed User Experience test. This is a particular kind of survey, and getting the details right to get unbiased information is a little tricky, to better emulate what real folks do in the wild.

Also, what does it cost to test several hundreds, to several thousands with a well designed User Experience test?

And how does the random selection process work to get your test subjects? Self selection produces far less informative and reliable results compared to good random sampling of the appropriate demographic group or groups.
 

mikenewhouse

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Now we're talking.

I think it is not quite trivial to have a well designed User Experience test. This is a particular kind of survey, and getting the details right to get unbiased information is a little tricky, to better emulate what real folks do in the wild.

Also, what does it cost to test several hundreds, to several thousands with a well designed User Experience test?

And how does the random selection process work to get your test subjects? Self selection produces far less informative and reliable results compared to good random sampling of the appropriate demographic group or groups.
These are all the things that are well in the wheel house of a UX designer.
 

solarguy

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These are all the things that are well in the wheel house of a UX designer.
Perhaps those in favor of such a re-denomination proposal should talk to a high caliber UX designer and find out the cost, timeline, etc and put a proposal to the masternodes. Then we'd know.
 

TanteStefana

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I really wish we could do this, but after hashing it out, it would be far too risky. There are so many integrations with other companies now, and getting everyone to upgrade, and avoiding confusion.... the time is over for such a big change. Eventually, we will come up with another solution, but for now, the wallet will show denominations in your choice of currency such as USD, Euro Pound, etc... spreading out to as many currencies as possible. The option is still there to choose mDash (Dots) or Duffs in the future when fiat money is no longer dominant or around.

Anyway, it simply isn't as easy as moving a decimal point and if people lose money because of this, that would be truly devastating. Even if we tried this, to make sure everyone was on board and that it happened smoothly, it would require more developers, marketers, etc... to pull it off. It would take away from Evolution otherwise, and we haven't even filled the Evolution jobs as it is.

I want you to know that the core team, especially Ryan, really understands the usability issue, and considered this deeply. They didn't dismiss it out of hand. After much discussion, it was realized that this was simply too risky, and the team too small to make it happen, and they will pursue other avenues to make Dash more understandable and usable to the public.
 

Bugeater

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We need to do this. So many of my friends buy Ether and not Bitcoin because it's "cheaper". They say they can't afford a Bitcoin.
 

UdjinM6

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We need to do this. So many of my friends buy Ether and not Bitcoin because it's "cheaper". They say they can't afford a Bitcoin.
You should explain them that there is no need to buy "the whole Bitcoin" and why. If they can't understand this, they are simply not ready for this. And we are not ready for them either.
 
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Benglian

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The psychology behind the initials argument is correct, but it doesn't go far enough.

I will posit that if DASH doesn't make a change as described below another coin will, and that will actually become the mass adopted digital cash.

(I don't know if or how this would work technically but) For mass adoption;

TL;DR

The price of DASH is set at $1.
The coin supply is adjusted for price movements instead.
--

We all know that this wouldn't make any change to the value of your DASH holdings, as the number of coins in your wallet would increase or decrease in relation to your holdings. (a 10% rise in the 'price' of DASH would mean you had 10% more coins in your wallet instead).

This has many benefits for mass adoption;

A user always knows that DASH is $1, but somehow they keep getting 'richer' and coins keep appearing in their wallet!
DASH has an inflationary supply, but the coin inflation is distributed to all coin holders equally.
As the dollar (and all fiat) dies the value of DASH would stablise and fewer coins would magically appear in peoples wallets.
Eventually people would forget there was a dollar and just understand the value of a DASH in the same way they previously did a dollar.

This could be the DASH 'killer app' that drives mass adoption, as DASH really would be Digital Cash.

Please don't forget that we all live in our own bubbles.
For most of us this is a crypto bubble where they understand at least the basic monetary concepts of crypto, but we are a very very very small portion of the population.
If you speak to real people on the street they have no idea about how the fiat money that they use every day comes into existence, or how inflation works, or what a 'money supply' is. And fiat has been around for...hmmm...quite a long time. So please, don't expect people to understand 'new' money, if they struggle (or don't care) to understand the 'old'.

The US is a particular bubble too, where the USD is 'relatively' stable in the short term. No hyperinflation, and very seldom do you have to 'think' in another currency. It is not like that everywhere; I once worked on a cruise ship where the cruise ship currency was GBP (British passengers), I was paid in USD (employed by a US company), and I spent EUR (we cruised in the Europe).

In Europe we already had this monetary change with the switch from 'local' currencies to the Euro.
At first everything was priced in both currencies so we could still understand the value in our home currencies, but after a few years home currency prices were dropped and now we just think in Euro.
 
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Benglian

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Thinking about this, perhaps a better idea would be just to call the USD value of a wallet 'DASH$' equivalent and have people spend DASH$ rather than the core Dash value of a coin. People buying on exchanges would get DASH$ 100 when spending 100 USD, Evolution subscriptions could be denominated in DASH$ etc. But send and receive would have to be in DASH$, rather than 'DASH value coins'. (DASHVC)

This is effectively what exists now, but with some shift in the focus of the perceived value store token to DASH$, rather than DASHVC
 

solarguy

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Thinking about this, perhaps a better idea would be just to call the USD value of a wallet 'DASH$' equivalent and have people spend DASH$ rather than the core Dash value of a coin. People buying on exchanges would get DASH$ 100 when spending 100 USD, Evolution subscriptions could be denominated in DASH$ etc. But send and receive would have to be in DASH$, rather than 'DASH value coins'. (DASHVC)

This is effectively what exists now, but with some shift in the focus of the perceived value store token to DASH$, rather than DASHVC
 

solarguy

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I am unconvinced we have to emulate the mighty dollar. We're allowed to be different and in fact, we had better be different. And my bedrock position is, before we go changing code, I would have to see a really good user experience survey that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that this would increase adoption by a meaningful amount.
 

Benglian

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I am unconvinced we have to emulate the mighty dollar. We're allowed to be different and in fact, we had better be different. And my bedrock position is, before we go changing code, I would have to see a really good user experience survey that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that this would increase adoption by a meaningful amount.
The trouble with this is who are you going to survey and what questions are you going to ask them?
Do you ask Crypto users who will respond with "Crypto FTW!" or do you ask the other 99% of society who will respond with "Crypto...what...?"
 

solarguy

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The trouble with this is who are you going to survey and what questions are you going to ask them?
Do you ask Crypto users who will respond with "Crypto FTW!" or do you ask the other 99% of society who will respond with "Crypto...what...?"
User experience surveys are a science unto themselves. The "Stock Split" idea is that we will get mass adoption much faster (that means lots of normies, aka non-crypto folks) than if we do not do the revaluation or "stock split" to make the Dash worth a dollar, or ten dollars, or whatever is deemed optimal.

So, an appropriate demographic could be chosen, and good sample methods could be applied. But I think you're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. It is the job of the people who advocate for the stock split to find the convincing evidence to sell it to the Masternodes. As a courtesy, I gave one possible solution for providing objective evidence, as opposed to 3 or 4 anecdotes about people's friends or relatives who are unwilling to adopt Dash because it's expensive.

As a masternode owner, I am unwilling to risk my share in a billion dollar business based on a few fuzzy anecdotes. Further, as noted previously, to make this evidence valid and convincing, the design and selection protocol of the user experience survey would have to be designed in full view of the masternode community to make certain it is not biased (either way) and really does answer the question in a fair and convincing manner.
 

Benglian

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"Further, as noted previously, to make this evidence valid and convincing, the design and selection protocol of the user experience survey would have to be designed in full view of the masternode community to make certain it is not biased (either way) and really does answer the question in a fair and convincing manner."

This is the heart of the matter, and as I referred to above...we all live in our own bubbles...and these are evidently Crypto-based. That means it would be hard for those same people to determine if a survey is fair and unbiased within a community that we live outside of (the crypto-noobs).

There is evidence that humans are creatures of habit and prefer the status quo to change most of the time. I don't think its contentious to infer that 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' would prefer to process value amounts in a manner they are used to, with two decimal places. Could people be expected to know if 0.0137 DASH is a fair price for a cup of coffee today? I know I can't do that math in my head walking past the coffee shop. For mass adoption to occur I'll contend that either DASH has to be so far superior to fiat that it would no longer be just money, or just a lot superior and yet very similar to todays fiat in terms of the mechanisms of usage.

Mass adoption means that the masses would adopt it. That means the rich and the intelligent, but also the poor, and the intellectually challenged...and the capitalist and the commie.

Its no easy task, but the closer it can seem to todays money, while being vastly superior, the closer mass adoption will become.
 

solarguy

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"Its no easy task, but the closer it can seem to todays money, while being vastly superior, the closer mass adoption will become."

It's a nice theory. But without evidence, it's just a theory. If you want to change it, bring me evidence.
 

Benglian

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I guess we'll find out now with Corion, which purports to be doing exactly what I proposed...

" Built on Ethereum Classic, the CORION stable-price token eliminates the guesswork that comes with fluctuating prices. Its algorithm enables special automated inflation-deflation control, assuring the stability of the CORION token as a stable means of payment worldwide."

http://bitcoinist.com/corion-announces-ico-details/
 

camosoul

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Probably, in your surrounding, you don't experience "average" people mathematical skills.
If I make excuses for an inability to do something as simple as move a decimal point, people die.

If a person sees no reason to differentiate between pennies and dollars, even after I've take great pains to explain that it's in their best interest, I see no reason not to completely screw them. They deserve it.

Fuck lazy, stupid people. They contribute nothing anyway. You lose nothing by excluding them.
 

Benglian

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Fuck lazy, stupid people. They contribute nothing anyway. You lose nothing by excluding them.
Its one way of ordering a society, I guess...but not one I would want to live in.

How about "Poor stupid people, who can't understand through no fault of their own. I, who can understand, will help them to become productive contributors to society through distributing my wisdom amongst them."

Oh wait...I guess that's what you're doing through your commentary, right Camo(no)soul ?