Dash "stock split"

solarguy

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As others have suggested, a smaller denomination of DASH (Dots), with two decimal places to indicate the lowest denomination.
You're telling me the result. You're not telling me how that result is generated or calculated. What is it based on? How often is it updated?


And more specifically, how does this keep the currency Dash related to a familiar unit like the dollar?
 
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Friend

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1 DASH (Đ) = 1.000.000 dots (đ).
dot (đ) as a base currency in dash system?


So, as for now, probably kilodots (kđ) ? would be most user friendly denomination.
But @Andric Tham , in your opinion, can we skip that and go directly to dots (đ), or would it be to confusing and better stick to kdots (kđ)?
How do you see this transition, taking place in practice? Where to start (exchanges maybe)?
(Similar ideas long time ago: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-to-two-decimal-places.6964/#post-74059)

No need to change the code, but a lot of work for marketers and others in Core Team, to advertise this, as official denomination, used in dash system.
IMO, its important to prepare this transition as soon as possible, before early majority, stage of development starts.

================
adjust it so one Dash is worth a dollar
Where did you get this idea? Not many people here, besides you, suggest this.

You're telling me the result. You're not telling me how that result is generated or calculated. What is it based on? How often is it updated?

And more specifically, how does this keep the currency Dash related to a familiar unit like the dollar?
Could you clarify what you mean exactly? Sorry, if my answers diverge with your questions.

  • "You're not telling me how that result is generated or calculated. What is it based on?"
Result is based on knowledge of human psychology and UX tests: people are much more familiar and easy going with i.e. 1000 dots than 0.001 dash in daily use.

After this (12 sec):
and this (17 sec):

..I got even more confidence that it is good, to change base denomination, and minimize decimals (for average people in daily use).

  • "How often is it updated?"
1. We would, for sure, update only once, if we go directly to dots (đ).
I.e 1000000 dots (đ) = 209$ ; 1$ = 4784 dots (đ) ; 1 dot (đ) = 0.0002$

2. kdots (kđ) is better for now and for future x10 growth.
I.e 1000 kdots (kđ) = 209$ ; 1$ = 4.78 kdots (kđ) ; 1 kdot (kđ) = 0.2$


  • "how does this keep the currency Dash related to a familiar unit like the dollar?"
It brings value of one base currency unit closer to peoples comfort zone: http://imgur.com/a/NJh9R , where most people operate, and where value of most national currencies are.

1 base currency unit (of dash system) does not have to be worth exactly 1 dollar.
========================
Idea, of converter built in wallet, is good for beginning.
But to bring dash to world currency, its base unit, ie. dot (đ), has to be easily computed by human beings on its own (without more than 2 decimal places).
 

Friend

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the sub coin would be flexible so that a user might see his 10 sub Dash balance go from 10 to 10.02111111 to 9.9999912 etc... in a matter of minutes or however long. However, the world value of a sub-Dash for purchasing power will always remain the same.

In all honesty, this is where I'll bet it will go. It would be superior to fiat, as it would be highly stable and understandable. Stores wouldn't have to constantly re-price everything due to inflation, but rather could make long term deals with suppliers and know what to expect.
I don't see this. Can you explain?
How can you make "purchasing power remain the same"?
Stores always have to re-price things due to price rise (higher demand), and drop (i.e. in electronics caused by fast development).

IMO, general stability (as in most national currencies), will come with bigger market capacity.
 

Matt Robertson

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Bitcoin already tried this with great failure. Our one great advantage is to maybe use the dash budget to vote in a standard. And then even monetarily incentivize wallets to change their view. Althought, I think a longer term solution is build in a stable coin into the system, something similar to Steem dollar. System backed and collateralized, market based stable coin. This will let us deliver a system that anyone can use. The units stay reasonable and the number units float based on the underlying price of DASH. DD a Dash Dollar
 

solarguy

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"adjust it so one Dash is worth a dollar"

Friend said, "Where did you get this idea? Not many people here, besides you, suggest this."

The whole idea of a "stock split" is to reduce the value of Dash to more familiar territory, "like" a dollar. Others on the most recent reddit dashpay thread put this forward as "more familiar" . I don't want to change the denomination of Dash at all. You are the one suggesting we change the value of one Dash to a much smaller amount. How much smaller do you want it? I don't know how much smaller you want it.


You're telling me the result. You're not telling me how that result is generated or calculated. What is it based on? How often is it updated?

And more specifically, how does this keep the currency Dash related to a familiar unit like the dollar?

Friend said, "Could you clarify what you mean exactly? Sorry, if my answers diverge with your questions.



OK Friend, How much would you split or change the value of Dash, exactly? Answer this question, specifically. I want a number.
 
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Matt Robertson

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That probably wasn't clear. Defintiely not adjusting DASH to = 1, but creating a new token that is totally in the DASH blockchain that is pegged to the 1 dollar. I was imagigning we call this NEW token a DASH Dollar, or DD ..... So, in the steem system you have steem tokens and steem dollars. So, they are two different things. DASH doesnt' change, we build a new stable token into the DASH ecosystem that users can move into and outof DASH into Dash Dollars seemlessly on the DASH blockchain. Then merchants can price things in DD, and users can store their funds in DD if they so choose. this gives them a stable unit of account. Take a look at steem and steem dollars to see what I mean.
 

solarguy

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That probably wasn't clear. Defintiely not adjusting DASH to = 1, but creating a new token that is totally in the DASH blockchain that is pegged to the 1 dollar. I was imagigning we call this NEW token a DASH Dollar, or DD ..... So, in the steem system you have steem tokens and steem dollars. So, they are two different things. DASH doesnt' change, we build a new stable token into the DASH ecosystem that users can move into and outof DASH into Dash Dollars seemlessly on the DASH blockchain. Then merchants can price things in DD, and users can store their funds in DD if they so choose. this gives them a stable unit of account. Take a look at steem and steem dollars to see what I mean.
So if I owned Dash, then I would automatically own x Dash Dollars as well? Or I could convert my Dash frictionlessly to Dash Dollars?

Finest regards,
 

Friend

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The whole idea of a "stock split" is to reduce the value of Dash to more familiar territory, "like" a dollar
Yes, but dollar is only example here. Generaly it is all about ease of use. National currencies are generally designed to serve this purpose. You don't have to small, and to big notes/coins in circulation.
Analogically our, so far, base denomination - dash is too expensive to be easy in everyday use (without 3-5 decimal places)
I don't want to change the denomination of Dash at all.
Neither it is my desire. But you see this "0.00319 for coffee" problem?
What is your idea to deal with it?
OK Friend, How much would you split or change the value of Dash, exactly? Answer this question, specifically. I want a number.
  • As for this moment best (in terms o UX), base denomination, should be mDash - kdot (kđ)
  • I'm open to discus uDash - dot (đ), because dash is more deflationary than usual crypto( because of MN), and in two years, we may end up in the same place as today. (2 years ago dash was 2$)
Good solution in my opinion:
The way I see it, the community only needs to agree on what the smallest denomination of the currency is called (like Ether’s wei or Bitcoin’s satoshi), and make that the default interface on any merchant or consumer facing application. Give it a corresponding symbol ($, ¥, etc.) and make sure it’s a Unicode symbol so it can be easily encoded and printed anywhere.
đ (U+0111) for 1 dot = 0.000001 Dash
================================

Wise words on the other part of this problem:
As previously mentioned, converters wouldn’t work as well as you’d still be abstracting the true value of the cryptocurrency from the spender or the merchant. That creates psychological and epistemological biases toward fiat, and against crypto, as a store of value and medium of exchange.

While the cryptocurrency’s value still needs to be pegged to an underlying cryptoasset, the interface doesn’t have to be. Now, we aren't talking about the digital interface (wallet UI) but the more general, abstract notion of a cryptocurrency and how it’s presented to its users (merchants and consumers != traders and miners), such as its currency name, denominations, symbol.
(I can quote this guy all day :)

Would be perfect to resolve this "0.00127" issue (Want to believe that Core Team have it on mind), before, or with first release of Evolution wallet.
 
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solarguy

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Friend said, "Analogically our, so far, base denomination - dash is too expensive to be easy in everyday use (without 3-5 decimal places)

Neither it is my desire. But you see this "0.00319 for coffee" problem?
What is your idea to deal with it?"

Users could have a choice of how they want it displayed in the wallet, along with a dollar value. If we want to publicize mdots or mdash, that's fine as a user option in the wallet. But don't monkey with the Dash itself. I still want to see the user experience study to show that it really does help adoption and really doesn't hurt our cryptonerd fans who brought us this far.
 

Friend

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Users could have a choice of how they want it displayed in the wallet, along with a dollar value. If we want to publicize mdots or mdash, that's fine as a user option in the wallet.
Have you carefully read what @Andric Tham wrote on this topic?
Ease of use requires to establish some good standard denomination.
I can change denoimnation to mDash now in my wallet or in BTC wallet. But it just doesn'twork on big adoption scale (i.e. bitcoin failure in this topic).
But don't monkey with the Dash itself.
You could write, why do you believe it is so bad idea.
Don't you think that on the level of "brain storm" discussion, all possibilities should be taken into consideration?

I still want to see the user experience study to show that it really does help adoption and really doesn't hurt our cryptonerd fans who brought us this far.
Could you give an hipotethical example way, of hurting cryptonerd fans by this change?
(Someone may argue, that dash, by its existence, is hurting cryptonerd fans of Bitcoin, who brought all of us this far.)

As for source material, @Andric Tham
The underlying assumption here is that humans parse whole numbers more easily than we do floating point numbers. This can be verified with an ethnographic research study, should the core team doubt this nugget of “common sense”.
Could you provide us some links, and scientific literature, on this, please?
 

solarguy

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Friend wrote, "Could you give an hipotethical example way, of hurting cryptonerd fans by this change?"

One of the main advantages of the better cryptocurrencies is that the supply of total coins is largely immutable. If you suddenly make it appear as though we increased the supply of Dash by 100 or 1,000, that makes them nervous. Further, making fundamental changes to the code base, for "appearances" could be perceived as risky. Some perceive Dash to be valuable because one unit is worth ~200 USD. If it's suddenly portrayed as worth $2.00, that may be a hindrance.

You can consider any plan you want. Brainstorming is strongly encouraged. But I suggested that if you want to make substantive changes that have any chance of being approved by the masternodes, you need evidence that, moving the decimal place and portraying Dash in a very different way, will actually speed adoption with newbies, and further, that making this change will not discourage/annoy/repel the people who have brought Dash this far already.

These points have been brought up before. Have you not read the entire thread?
 

Andric Tham

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Friend wrote, "Could you give an hipotethical example way, of hurting cryptonerd fans by this change?"

One of the main advantages of the better cryptocurrencies is that the supply of total coins is largely immutable. If you suddenly make it appear as though we increased the supply of Dash by 100 or 1,000, that makes them nervous. Further, making fundamental changes to the code base, for "appearances" could be perceived as risky. Some perceive Dash to be valuable because one unit is worth ~200 USD. If it's suddenly portrayed as worth $2.00, that may be a hindrance.
I don’t think the discussion here is about increasing the supply of the cryptoasset DASH. I agree that having a deflationary value with a high value per coin is the way to go when appearing to cryptonerds who invest in the space.

It seems the approaches that we are all converging toward in this discussion are to work towards a “stablecoin” (a la Tether or Steem Dollar), or a smaller default denomination for DASH when it is presented to end-users such as merchants and consumers (not cryptonerds). These are two potential possibilities.

The former would require a lot of thinking and collaboration between disciplines, and might not be something DASH wants to tackle right now. It could mean working with a partner to build a stablecoin based on the DASH network.

The latter would require a strong aligned effort between product design and marketing to agree on the one true denomination for end-users and merchants. This might be the best solution going forward.
 
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Andric Tham

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As for source material, @Andric Tham

Could you provide us some links, and scientific literature, on this, please?
Yes.

This is an oft-cited paper about information processing of numbers:

The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on Our Capacity for Processing Information by George A. Miller

Additionally, these two books (in the context of education and games) further expand on Miller’s information processing theories by relating them to the idea of “cognitive load”, which is the amount of information processing required of someone, where a higher load results in a greater difficulty of completing a task with accuracy. Cognitive load is also a theory used by usability professionals working in the field of user experience design.

Design and Development of Training Games

21st Century Learning for 21st Century Skills

To read more about how the limits of information processing in humans affect usability (accuracy and efficiency), read this article by Kathryn Whitenton about cognitive load.

For cryptonerds and programmers, cognitive load is basically the “working memory” of the human mind, like RAM, if you will. Humans have computational abilities, just like computers, but they are limited compared to what computers are capable of.

As a result, offloading these computations to the underlying systems (in this case, the DASH network, the DASH wallet UI, and the DASH currency format) is not only more efficient and accurate, but also more likely to result in users who find it “easy” to use.

Why should we care if DASH is easy to use?

As we know, tasks that are difficult are usually avoided, unless there is sufficient motivation.

To account for most people’s lack of sufficient motivation to switch payment methods (switching always incurs a decision making cost most humans would rather avoid!), DASH should lower its own barriers of adoption by making it as easy (or easier) to use than fiat money. The currency format is very much a part of that.

To understand more about behavioral change, one can consult BJ Fogg’s Behavior Model.

As of now, only traders who are interested in making money (high motivation) or cryptonerds (high motivation and high ability) are using DASH. For DASH to achieve greater adoption, it must lower the ability barrier, so that users with low technical ability and lower motivation levels to tolerate the higher levels of cognitive load associated with processing decimal places will have sufficient reason to switch to it.
 

feedbands

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A price of $1000 per unit is a MASSIVE barrier to adoption. I can't tell you how many "laypersons" I speak to on a monthly basis who don't want to get into bitcoin because "it costs $13,000" and they can't afford it. I'm sorry crypto-world, that's just how people think. How many people are getting into Ripple "Because it's only $2" or Cardano because "It's under a dollar".
 
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A price of $1000 per unit is a MASSIVE barrier to adoption. I can't tell you how many "laypersons" I speak to on a monthly basis who don't want to get into bitcoin because "it costs $13,000" and they can't afford it
I 100% agree. I bring people into this space. I have watched numerous people I personally know gravitate to "cheap" coins. "High prices" are an absolutely MASSIVE barrier to new interest. Dash has grown very well, but no doubt would have done MUCH better as a "cheaper" coin.

Dash Core Ceo Ryan Taylor gave me this below response via email dated 28/07/2017:

I completely agree with you and we’ve considered the possibility many times. The issue is unfortunately a technical one, and we simply have no way of knowing what third party systems would break due to the change. This issue makes it nearly impossible to make the change. There are several things we can do to mitigate the user issues without taking such risks. First, all consumer or merchant wallets can display the fiat amounts alongside. Second, we can start using mDash as the standard unit.
We have agreed to look at how the wallet files, various protocols, and user interfaces could be migrated to a new unit safely in the future, but it’s just not a priority relative to Evolution. The more I dig into the issues, the more complexities I encounter, and it seems best to set the issue aside for now.
There is a reason no other coin has succeeded in making this transition… and an area I’d rather be a fast follower than a leader.

Ryan Taylor
CEO - Dash Core Team
 

younglegend

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Jan 1, 2017
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If it lower the transaction fee, I strongly agree.

other than that there's no point.


Dash has price stability built in. So in the future people may rely on the

price of dash as pricing their services, so this kind of change

should not be taken lightly. We might need Amanda's dash detailed again

to announce these important changes.
 

camosoul

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A price of $1000 per unit is a MASSIVE barrier to adoption. I can't tell you how many "laypersons" I speak to on a monthly basis who don't want to get into bitcoin because "it costs $13,000" and they can't afford it. I'm sorry crypto-world, that's just how people think. How many people are getting into Ripple "Because it's only $2" or Cardano because "It's under a dollar".
The unit is the duff, and it costs less than a penny.

This whole conversation is based on being out of touch with reality.

People will use DASH transparently, scaling against their local fiat currency. The amount of DASH shown will be in parentheses for comparison's sake.

No store is going to go around re-pricing everything in DASH or Bitcoin, or anything else.

All you need is a wallet that has a built-in exchange rate, and shows you the DASH/FIAT equivalency at the moment. Many may not even want to see that... They'll blindly be paying in FIAT values, not even looking at the .02514 or whatever.

It shows just how swollen the heads of cryptotards are, that they can't figure this out, and are trying to come up with a solution to a problem that requires them to be oh so much more important than they really are before it would be a concern... And even then, by that point in time, there would be need to worry, because if DASH, or any other crypto had reached a level of adoption so extreme that 0.13456326 was actually seen on a price tag somewhere, it'd be so deeply entrenched that people would already be used to seeing it and already have adapted...

This conversation imagines adopting taking a path that makes no sensed and clearly won't be the path to adoption. But, what do you expect from reality-divorced cryptotards?

The decimal point is imaginary anyway... duffs are duffs no matter where you put the dot.

The only potential issue I see is in granularity. .00000001 may not be small enough if value deflates far enough. It's clear nobody actually expected crypoto to get anywhere. But, now that it has, we see a resolution problem due to a lack of forethought.

We don't need fewer decimal points, we need more. The average joe is never going to see them anyway...
 

younglegend

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$1000 price isn't the issue. Price went to $1800 in korea at one point and

people were kept buying hard. Looking at current trend people are simply looking for low transaction fees.

Its kind of annoying to see random crypto and dash copy gain 1000% over night and pass dash in market cap.

But they help me not to short dash.



We just stay cool and become what we are as community as we met for the idea of decentralized/ anonymous/ effortless/ stable currency.
 

TroyDASH

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The unit is the duff, and it costs less than a penny.

This whole conversation is based on being out of touch with reality.

People will use DASH transparently, scaling against their local fiat currency. The amount of DASH shown will be in parentheses for comparison's sake.

No store is going to go around re-pricing everything in DASH or Bitcoin, or anything else.

All you need is a wallet that has a built-in exchange rate, and shows you the DASH/FIAT equivalency at the moment. Many may not even want to see that... They'll blindly be paying in FIAT values, not even looking at the .02514 or whatever.

It shows just how swollen the heads of cryptotards are, that they can't figure this out, and are trying to come up with a solution to a problem that requires them to be oh so much more important than they really are before it would be a concern... And even then, by that point in time, there would be need to worry, because if DASH, or any other crypto had reached a level of adoption so extreme that 0.13456326 was actually seen on a price tag somewhere, it'd be so deeply entrenched that people would already be used to seeing it and already have adapted...

This conversation imagines adopting taking a path that makes no sensed and clearly won't be the path to adoption. But, what do you expect from reality-divorced cryptotards?

The decimal point is imaginary anyway... duffs are duffs no matter where you put the dot.

The only potential issue I see is in granularity. .00000001 may not be small enough if value deflates far enough. It's clear nobody actually expected crypoto to get anywhere. But, now that it has, we see a resolution problem due to a lack of forethought.

We don't need fewer decimal points, we need more. The average joe is never going to see them anyway...
You would be right if the value of cryptos today was primarily derived from their utility. Which is ultimately what needs to happen, but isn't the case. Much of the value of cryptocurrencies today are driven by speculators, many of whom don't know or care about the fundamentals as much as making fast money, which lends itself to coins with huge supplies outperforming coins with lesser supplies because they appear cheaper. Is this really a good reason to split the coin, I don't know. If we were to do it over again I would have opted to have had the decimal point moved from the beginning.
 

Gunna

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I 100% agree. I bring people into this space. I have watched numerous people I personally know gravitate to "cheap" coins. "High prices" are an absolutely MASSIVE barrier to new interest. Dash has grown very well, but no doubt would have done MUCH better as a "cheaper" coin.
People still buy bitcoin, they just buy what they can afford. Many people have thrown a couple of hundred dollars at BTC and will do the same for dash.
 

Friend

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People will use DASH transparently, scaling against their local fiat currency.
So in your opinion Dash is not going to be Cash, just payment processor or payment platform?
All you need is a wallet that has a built-in exchange rate, and shows you the DASH/FIAT equivalency at the moment. Many may not even want to see that... They'll blindly be paying in FIAT values, not even looking at the .02514 or whatever.
Answer:
At the end of the day, if this problem isn't solved, we’re still relying on fiat, not replacing it altogether. That's because, with a limited supply of coins, the value will continue to rise. Eventually, we’ll be dealing with 6, or 7 decimal places just to come to an equivalent of today’s dollar or euro or pound.
As previously mentioned, converters wouldn’t work as well as you’d still be abstracting the true value of the cryptocurrency from the spender or the merchant. That creates psychological and epistemological biases toward fiat, and against crypto, as a store of value and medium of exchange.
No offense, but in this case, I would rather believe person who has good experience and scientific background in field of UX ( https://andrictham.com ), than tech guys who "have no problem with decimals" and project their believes to the rest of society.
 

yocko

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Would this not be seen as a huge crash to the members of the cryptosphere we are targeting? After all these people don't understand coin supply versus price.
The youtube experts will be shouting from the rooftops about DASH's tremendous instability and price crash to their millions of viewers.

The banks are jumping on the head of digital currency now anyway, we have entered into a battle between government and bank regulation that may very well see these centralised projects lose their footing.
This hype rush may very well be over for a long time, our focus should be on places to spend rather than denomination.
If DASH is spendable globally directly as DASH not through fiat gateways we will see adoption of DASH that will stick and be unbreakable.

Quality over quantity
 

bigrcanada

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BIG no to any kind of split! I'm with Camsoul on this one.... If people are to ignorant, stupid or lazy to learn something other then a 2 decimal system... They deserve to be poor and destitute. Period. Gold and Silver worked awesome for centuries.... There were no 2 decimal points.

Stock Splits/quantitative easing/ print money is what has made the mess we are in today.

I and other MN most certainly would be voting no on this. People, Dash and digital currencies are not here to redistribute the wealth of the world... It's meant to be a fair medium of exchange and a store of value....and a unit of account that is not controlled by governments or central banks .. Not to fix the social problems of the world. Jesus! If your friends are too stupid to comprehend nothing more then 2 decimals or are buying currency because it's price per unit is cheaper and can't wrap their mind around supply ... You should immediately dump them as friends... Just saying
 
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solarguy

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A good user interface on a wallet can display the Dash in 2 decimals, we just need to pick a name for this denomination. Perceived problem solved.

I am unconvinced a "stock split" at the blockchain protocol level would be all it's cracked up to be, i.e. actual improved user adoption. Show me a real study that actually relates to Dash cryptocurrency, I will listen again.

Plus, the Core team has made it clear that this would break things and they don't want to do it.

I swear, this comes up every month.