Which Masternode model should we implement?

tungfa

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Apr 9, 2014
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Correct. If masternodes go under Tor then wallets will need Tor installed too.

There are services such as tor2web but those are only for websites and it sucks lol.

If asking users to install Tor is such a problem then Darkcoin can simply host a Tor proxy and announce its Ip address and port publicly for everyone to use.

I think going under Tor for Darkcoin is a huge PR gain too. I am sure Torproject would blog about it and Torproject is known more than bitcoin.

Edit: If traffic encryption between wallet <-> masternode matters too then Tor does it for you.

tx for all your posts
super interesting !
(I am not a coder at all and just try to understand some general things)

so the relays we have now for TOR (we need 8 to get this really moving) are the once who can help to connect MN's inside the onion ? as they relay to the outside (surface web) ?
is that correct ?
(sorry for the dummy question)

Edit:
I agree that evan should concentrate on DS and IX
but that does not mean that a team (or some community members ) can look into this and start the process / adoption
I tagged you in another thread already where some pieps are working on this.
as in general "DRK is not promoting the DarkNet" but I agree it would give us huge leverage for that community if we run MNs over the Onion + are more active in that community.
vertoe started some post regarding updating red dots and hide wiki and such , I am trying to help him out where I can and it would be great to have more (knowledgable ) people involfed
 
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drkhouse

Member
Nov 22, 2014
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tx for all your posts
super interesting !
(I am not a coder at all and just try to understand some general things)

so the relays we have now for TOR (we need 8 to get this really moving) are the once who can help to connect MN's inside the onion ? as they relay to the outside (surface web) ?
is that correct ?
(sorry for the dummy question)

Edit:
I agree that evan should concentrate on DS and IX
but that does not mean that a team (or some community members ) can look into this and start the process / adoption
I tagged you in another thread already where some pieps are working on this.
as in general "DRK is not promoting the DarkNet" but I agree it would give us huge leverage for that community if we run MNs over the Onion + are more active in that community.
vertoe started some post regarding updating red dots and hide wiki and such , I am trying to help him out where I can and it would be great to have more (knowledgable ) people involfed
i think complete anonymity is not required. What is required is some level of anonymity so that geeks or agencys can't locate you or your hot wallet so the funds remain safe...
 

moli

Grizzled Member
Aug 5, 2014
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Correct. If masternodes go under Tor then wallets will need Tor installed too.

There are services such as tor2web but those are only for websites and it sucks lol.

If asking users to install Tor is such a problem then Darkcoin can simply host a Tor proxy and announce its Ip address and port publicly for everyone to use.

I think going under Tor for Darkcoin is a huge PR gain too. I am sure Torproject would blog about it and Torproject is known more than bitcoin.

Edit: If traffic encryption between wallet <-> masternode matters too then Tor does it for you.
I don't know much about Tor and the Tor hidden services, but Freenode has its own Tor hidden services and exit nodes. I think some of their servers use Tor and some don't, and they let users who do use their Tor hidden services or not still can log on their servers. And I've seen Freenode ddosed over and over but the botnets can never take it down for long.

Here's the link about Freenode Tor hidden services if anyone wants to read: https://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml#tor

I might be totally off here but I'm thinking if there's a way for Evan to create DRK own Tor hidden services, allow Masternode owners to have a choice to use Tor if they want anonymity, and also allow DRK users to have the same choice. It would be nice to have a network with both Tor-hidden-services and no-Tor-hidden-services mechanisms.
 

Minotaur

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Apr 7, 2014
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eduffield

Guys, I was just wondering how this affects the plans for obfuscation of the final user's ip when sending coins? Is this unrelated to the multipath technology that had been discussed to obfuscate the ip of a computer that was sending a payment?

For now I agree with option 1 with regards to masternode operators, specially because as an operator you earn a reward. I suspect these are two distinct things and IP obfuscation for the end user is something we will still do?
 

JGCMiner

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Jun 8, 2014
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eduffield

Guys, I was just wondering how this affects the plans for obfuscation of the final user's ip when sending coins? Is this unrelated to the multipath technology that had been discussed to obfuscate the ip of a computer that was sending a payment?

For now I agree with option 1 with regards to masternode operators, specially because as an operator you earn a reward. I suspect these are two distinct things and IP obfuscation for the end user is something we will still do?
Really curious about this as I posted something similar a few pages back. I consider IP obfuscation for the end user when sending coins a key part of Darkcoin's privacy (IMO, nearly to the same level as Darksend) and it would suck if option 1 precluded this. What say you, Evan?
 
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Raico

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May 28, 2014
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Vote for #1
necessary cost but much more powerful, reliable, and meaningful.
 

darkstrike420

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Jul 1, 2014
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I don't know much about Tor and the Tor hidden services, but Freenode has its own Tor hidden services and exit nodes. I think some of their servers use Tor and some don't, and they let users who do use their Tor hidden services or not still can log on their servers. And I've seen Freenode ddosed over and over but the botnets can never take it down for long.

Here's the link about Freenode Tor hidden services if anyone wants to read: https://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml#tor
I am sure both Freenode clearnet and freenode hidden service are hosted on the same computer using the same IP address so criminals have the clearnet ip address thus Tor provides absolutely no ddos protection.

I might be totally off here but I'm thinking if there's a way for Evan to create DRK own Tor hidden services, allow Masternode owners to have a choice to use Tor if they want anonymity, and also allow DRK users to have the same choice. It would be nice to have a network with both Tor-hidden-services and no-Tor-hidden-services mechanisms.
Entirely possible. Just add a check for client for the masternode address, if it ends with .onion then connect with Tor otherwise connect without Tor.
 

darkstrike420

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Jul 1, 2014
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Those who object moving the whole DRK network under tor, why not?
I also want to hear a real argument, not the following bs:
NSA this, NSA that. Another point of failure.
Really curious about this as I posted something similar a few pages back. I consider IP obfuscation for the end user when sending coins a key part of Darkcoin's privacy (IMO, nearly to the same level as Darksend) and it would suck if option 1 precluded this. What say you, Evan?
The only big problem with plain IP addresses is that people know YOU are using Darkcoin. If Darkcoin becomes illegal then that will be enough proof to start a criminal investigation on you and make you fines or even worse maybe jail time.
 
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oblox

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Aug 6, 2014
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Maybe this was addressed in here, but wouldn't there be potential forking issues if some of the masternode network was on clearnet and the remainder on tor/i2p (as a result of not being able to see each other/miners selecting winners)? It would either be an all or none for the network, right?
 

UdjinM6

Official Dash Dev
Dash Core Group
May 20, 2014
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Those who object moving the whole DRK network under tor, why not?
Belarus bans Tor tomorrow. Russia is next. Who is next after Russia?..
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/02/25/belarus-bans-tor-and-other-anonymizers/
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/02/25/belarus-bans-tor
So even using Tor will be illegal here (and who knows where else) and "they" know about Tor already while I hardly believe "they" know smth about Darkcoin (yet). There are talks about banning VPN too but this will mean death to IT-industry so it will take some time...
 
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r-ando

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Jun 22, 2014
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Belarus bans Tor tomorrow. Russia is next. Who is next after Russia?..
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/02/25/belarus-bans-tor-and-other-anonymizers/
https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/02/25/belarus-bans-tor
So even using Tor will be illegal here (and who knows where else) and "they" know about Tor already while I hardly believe "they" know smth about Darkcoin (yet). There are talks about banning VPN too but this will mean death to IT-industry so it will take some time...
Wow, that's really scary. I hope the people fight back against these tyrants! Whatever it takes... I wonder how they would feel if someone tried to take their personal freedoms away... I really hope its a serious thought in a lot of peoples minds over there. It only takes a few people to change the course of history, look at how much people like Aaron Swartz did for the world, defeating government lobbied attempts to essentially destroy the internet and attack freedom itself. I think its a responsibility to ourselves and the world to stand up for what is right when it is challenged by those who are not. And who are not in the right, whatever they might think of themselves...

This kind of dictatorial abuse of power is not right, but its nothing new. Our own present liberties that we were born with have already been degraded in our lifetime, we are less free than we would have been 30 years ago in many regards. (as Milton Friedman would likely agree)

This abuse of power has been going on for as long as human history can recollect. People who have or take power and try to take essential freedoms away from others. The good news is it never lasts forever and their fall is often spectacular. Its usually around the time when they get paranoid and changed by power, consumed by greed, which in the cloud of corruption leads them to the most foolish of actions because of their petty personal fear.

This is a sign they are on their way out, because in their very inability to succeed in their attempts of removing freedom and will from people, they show how weak and petty they really are, how scared they are and incapable of doing the right thing even when faced with the fact of their own inefficacy. Out of fear... The fear of being called out for what they really are and losing their place in the world, because they also know that their fall will be spectacular, somewhere deep down ingrained in truth, the nightmare of their dreams.

For freedom has a way of shining through the most opaque of lies bringing to light their weakness, the weaknesses of those who would dare challenge freedom and the light of love.

Their attack on freedom, a trumpet for my heart!
 
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GermanRed+

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Aug 28, 2014
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I agree with this. Just because you are paying for 10 IP addresses doesn't mean your VPS instances aren't all running on the same physical box.

Regarding TOR, hosting the Masternodes on a network designed and funded by the NSA doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
How does i2pd sound here? It is i2p re-written in C++. Would that be a good starting point for darkcoin?
 

darkstrike420

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Jul 1, 2014
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How does i2pd sound here? It is i2p re-written in C++. Would that be a good starting point for darkcoin?
I think it would be much better at the moment to go with the Java version. Its much more mature.

It seems I2P is currently the only choice for Darkcoin. Its peer-to-peer just like Darkcoin.
 
M

MangledBlue

Guest
In theory, yes its the same story about Bitcoin.

If USA was capable of ddosing North Korea why shouldn't it be possible to ddos something so small(compared to a country) like Bitcoin. Would they want to do it? I don't think so.

However, your creation is the biggest harm to any government, any police officer, any banker in the world. Your creation has made the black market as powerful as ever. I hope to never live the day you get arrested, because you don't deserve it.

Evan Duffield, you sure have balls. Even if I was a cryptocurrency expert, I would never create an anonymous coin - I don't have the balls to stand up against the government.

We will see what happens when your creation is illegal.



Sure, test it out. I must tell you though, Tor currently is much faster than I2p and you should use it in the case that masternode network does not operate through UDP.

Step off FUDDER
 

GermanRed+

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Aug 28, 2014
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Not at all. All you mentioned is using TCP, by supporting the HTTP protocol he automatically supports FTP and everything else because HTTP and FTP and most others are built on top of TCP. He has to support TCP, if DRK uses UDP then UDP too. Tor doesn't even support UDP.
Not to criticize you. However, I want to point out that you sound like Tor is going to solve everything automatically. However, as we know, even Flash in a browser needs to be disabled in order for Tor to work without leaking information that may be useful for NSA. So, I think taking the minimal part of Tor that will make it work on darkcoin network will be the better way to go since it also ease the pain for users who would need to set up Tor.
 
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darkstrike420

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Not to criticize you. However, I want to point out that you sound like Tor is going to solve everything automatically. However, as we know, even Flash in a browser needs to be disabled in order for Tor to work without leaking information that may be useful for NSA. So, I think taking the minimal part of Tor that will make it work on darkcoin network will be the better way to go since it also ease the pain for users who would need to set up Tor.
Flash needs to be disabled because it ignores proxy settings of the browser.

Also setting up Tor is downloading and executing it, no configuration needed.
 

GermanRed+

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Aug 28, 2014
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Flash needs to be disabled because it ignores proxy settings of the browser.

Also setting up Tor is downloading and executing it, no configuration needed.
I read the Tor setup documentation some time ago and I thought it was not that simple. There are other means to get you on Tor if the setup is not done right. I think SR is a proof of that statement.
 
M

MangledBlue

Guest
There's a couple of competing ideas that have been floating around and I'm not sure which one is superior. The basic question is, should the masternodes show their IPS or not? The answer everyone immediately comes up with is "No", but there are some trade offs to both systems.

Keep in mind, the masternodes individually MUST be able to respond to requests within a few seconds, therefore a anonymity solution such as TOR/I2P is impossible.

1.) One node per IP.
-Higher cost to run a node
-Network will support more computing power
-Zero anonymity for masternode operators
-Much faster response time for Masternode tasks
-Support tasks on direct connection to masternode (Greater security for DS and other tasks like that).
-Highly resistant to DDOS (thousands of machines)
-Less centralization
-Supports Masternode Blinding

2.) Removal of IPS
-Some basic level of anonymity for masternode operators
-Hosts can still be found, it'll just require slightly more work
-Less cost to operate masternodes
-Network as a whole is more slightly more resistant to DDOS
-Will support outbound only masternodes. I.e: How do you attack a node you can't connect to?
-No direct connection to masternodes (DS will be slightly less secure)
-Supports Masternode Blinding

I'm personally leaning toward #1. I don't want Masternode operators to believe their anonymous when they are in fact not at all. They're also incredibly important to the network, so the service must be fast and robust as possible.


#1
 

GermanRed+

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Aug 28, 2014
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It may be more useful to discuss whether we should take the approach of Tor or I2P(d) for the darkcoin network. Whether we should implement it ourselves
or use Tor/I2P is another question that can be discussed later.
 
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darkstrike420

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I read the Tor setup documentation some time ago and I thought it was not that simple. There are other means to get you on Tor if the setup is not done right. I think SR is a proof of that statement.
The wallet user doesn't need to do anything else than to run Tor.

Masternodes need to create hidden service and thats it. A masternode is not webserver which can do unpredicted shit and have sql injection vulnerabilities.
 

GermanRed+

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Aug 28, 2014
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The wallet user doesn't need to do anything else than to run Tor.

Masternodes need to create hidden service and thats it. A masternode is not webserver which can do unpredicted shit and have sql injection vulnerabilities.
But, who knows what other vulnerabilities a masternode may have?

EDIT: To me, I still think it is better if darkcoin will run automatically on Tor/I2P network (or its own implement) without even installing anything. That's why I wonder if I2Pd can provide some library and API to the programmer and you just write an application that use the library and forget about running extra daemon such as I2P.
 
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darkstrike420

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But, who knows what other vulnerabilities what a masternode may have?
To deanonymize a hidden service you need a RCE or the hidden service must somehow willingly connect to clearnet without Tor or willingly send its IP address over to you.

If a masternode has a RCE vulnerability then there are more things to worry about than deanonymization such as full server takeover and fund stealing.

Edit: I am glad you asked this :)
 

Sapereaude

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Apr 30, 2014
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I might be totally off here but I'm thinking if there's a way for Evan to create DRK own Tor hidden services, allow Masternode owners to have a choice to use Tor if they want anonymity, and also allow DRK users to have the same choice. It would be nice to have a network with both Tor-hidden-services and no-Tor-hidden-services mechanisms.
I agree with moli, it would be great to have both, but I definitely rather option 1 than pushing everyone onto the tor network.I mean for a start how many users and masternode operators would be capable of such a move? I'm guessing not many even if the technical details are sorted out perfectly.

The real question is if Masternodes can cooperate while simultaneously on the clearnet and while behind some kind of obfuscation. i'm guessing this comes down to latency and identification issues(perhaps a masternode version of the transmission control protocol? M-TCP with M-IPs:p). Then what kind of changes would this require, if any new potential vulnerabilities would be opened and how much time is going to be devoted to this.

Opposed to actively developing Darkcoin to adapt to the tor network today and worrying about future political/legal issues/NSA overlords.
 
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ichigo13

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Jul 6, 2014
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I believe it's best we focus on IP obfuscation of users sending coins right now and revisit this topic later on with speed results of nodes running through TOR from Evan.