Which Masternode model should we implement?

tungfa

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OMG
you guys !

How did this thread get so "off track"
i am amazed, from
Hidden IP Addresses to 353,000 unborn Babies ?
Whow
:cool:
Keep it coming, i wonder how far this is gonna go
 

oblox

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Aug 6, 2014
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OMG
you guys !

How did this thread get so "off track"
i am amazed, from
Hidden IP Addresses to 353,000 unborn Babies ?
Whow
:cool:
Keep it coming, i wonder how far this is gonna go
Because r-ando thinks spewing BS statistics makes his cause look awesome. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, just not the BS statistics as it relates to new users. It was his poor execution that ultimately lead to this amazing detour. :)
 

darkstrike420

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I agree with this. Just because you are paying for 10 IP addresses doesn't mean your VPS instances aren't all running on the same physical box.

Regarding TOR, hosting the Masternodes on a network designed and funded by the NSA doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
Sure. NSA is not actually funding Tor. USA government is not the same as NSA.

Also, Tor is open-source, if you can find a backdoor from the hundreds of researchers who have reviewed tor source then you must be some kind of godlike hacker. If you can't find a backdoor then please kindly shut the fuck up.

If something such high-level of crime as 99.99% drug markets trust Tor including the biggest then why something of such NO CRIME AT ALL like Darkcoin shouldn't?
 

r-ando

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Oblox, in life there are doers and then there are those that criticize and complain the doers. Its in the nature of mediocrity.

You probably think your opinions, ideas and thoughts are so important. Only your actions count. And your lack of action.

If you spend your time criticizing other people, the odds are you are not actually taking any actions that count. Specifically, Darkcoin related....

Which is partly why I don't want to criticize you or even other people for liking these comments of yours here, comments which frankly in my opinion are not very intelligent and also in my opinion lack anything constructive. I'll limit myself to the constructive things and you do whatever you feel is right... Its normal that I defend the charity if it is challenged, believe me I have faced a lot of challenges already and I expect much more. This isn't the first time we don't see eye to eye, I'm turning my eyes away from you.

I wasn't going to make judgement on you as a person again... but the comment about you crying to your mommy and the comments about statistics being BS to a charity, not to mention the simple lack of positivism in your demeanor... made me feel obliged to encourage you, one last attempt... to give to charity!

So here I formally request that you donate Darkcoin to the Rava World Conservation. Thank you for donating to a charity that will distribute Darkcoin to children forever, your donation will even keep on giving even after you pass away :)


I'm still busy laughing too and I'm about to like your mommy comment... oh Oblox... I really hope you show up with a Darkcoin project one day that blows me off my feet and that is very sincere and I will acknowledge you for it with utmost respect and sincerity...

This has proved a fun morning for me and back to work it is, sorry for derailing this tread. Darkmarkets and Illegal talk made me want to remind people of the positive things happening with Darkcoin, it turned into a critique by Oblox which I hope was addressed.

Going back to the Tor question eventually, are there issues for the network with having NSA control of nodes as mentioned by thelonecrouton? ...
 

oblox

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Oblox, in life there are doers and then there are those that criticize and complain the doers. Its in the nature of mediocrity.

You probably think your opinions, ideas and thoughts are so important. Only your actions count. And your lack of action.

If you spend your time criticizing other people, the odds are you are not actually taking any actions that count. Specifically, Darkcoin related....

Which is partly why I don't want to criticize you or even other people for liking these comments of yours here, comments which frankly in my opinion are not very intelligent and also in my opinion lack anything constructive. I'll limit myself to the constructive things and you do whatever you feel is right... Its normal that I defend the charity if it is challenged, believe me I have faced a lot of challenges already and I expect much more. This isn't the first time we don't see eye to eye, I'm turning my eyes away from you.

I wasn't going to make judgement on you as a person again... but the comment about you crying to your mommy and the comments about statistics being BS to a charity, not to mention the simple lack of positivism in your demeanor... made me feel obliged to encourage you, one last attempt... to give to charity!

So here I formally request that you donate Darkcoin to the Rava World Conservation. Thank you for donating to a charity that will distribute Darkcoin to children forever, your donation will even keep on giving even after you pass away :)


I'm still busy laughing too and I'm about to like your mommy comment... oh Oblox... I really hope you show up with a Darkcoin project one day that blows me off my feet and that is very sincere and I will acknowledge you for it with utmost respect and sincerity...

This has proved a fun morning for me and back to work it is, sorry for derailing this tread. Darkmarkets and Illegal talk made me want to remind people of the positive things happening with Darkcoin, it turned into a critique by Oblox which I hope was addressed.

Going back to the Tor question eventually, are there issues for the network with having NSA control of nodes as mentioned by thelonecrouton? ...
Alright, you go on and post your 300k of new users per day on Bitcointalk or better yet, even on any news site, and see how fast it's ripped apart. Go on sugar. You make it sound like I am against your idea of the charity--I'm not. I'm against your decision of mentioning BS statistics. You went about it the wrong way and I called you out on it.
 

thelonecrouton

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Sure. NSA is not actually funding Tor. USA government is not the same as NSA.

Also, Tor is open-source, if you can find a backdoor from the hundreds of researchers who have reviewed tor source then you must be some kind of godlike hacker. If you can't find a backdoor then please kindly shut the fuck up.

If something such high-level of crime as 99.99% drug markets trust Tor including the biggest then why something of such NO CRIME AT ALL like Darkcoin shouldn't?
Who do you think runs all the exit nodes? Trusting the tool of your enemy is daft.
 

r-ando

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This could be interesting in light of today's discussion, it seems to suggest a legal framework is being recommended (or going to be recommended) by the NSA to allow future backdoors or similar access through legislation...
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-mano-with-nsa-director-over-crypo-backdoors/

And it also seems to suggest they are already doing it, which we all knew anyways after Snowden and the other whistleblower testimonies.
 
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darkstrike420

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Who do you think runs all the exit nodes? Trusting the tool of your enemy is daft.
Using Tor as an out-proxy is completely different than using Tor for hidden service.

First difference is that when using as an out-proxy then the exit-node sees the traffic in plaintext.

FYI: You can ask Tor explicitly to use your Exit-node(s) so traffic confirmation attacks become impossible thus deanonymization too. There is no way to prove that you're using your own exit-nodes and other people would be using your exit-nodes too.

Yes, NSA do run over 50% exit-nodes. You're correct about that part. In fact, everyone should assume NSA run over 99.99% exit-nodes when using Tor.

Please do some research before spreading FUD.

Edit: Why do you care about this so much? Even using Tor as an ddos protection is a huge gain.

Being so scared about Tor being runned by NSA just calls you out as a criminal. Are you a criminal?

Even before Torproject fixed an anonymity problem with Hidden services, it took 3 months to find out the IP address of an hidden service. Now imagine if this vulnerability existed. It would take 3 * 2000 months to shutdown all Masternodes of Darkcoin. 6000 months = 500 years. No one lives for 500 years. Now as this vulnerability is fixed, finding out IP address of hidden service can only be done with software layer vulnerabilities such as SQL Injection(in case of Silk Road 2).
 
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thelonecrouton

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Using Tor as an out-proxy is completely different than using Tor for hidden service.

First difference is that when using as an out-proxy then the exit-node sees the traffic in plaintext.

FYI: You can ask Tor explicitly to use your Exit-node(s) so traffic confirmation attacks become impossible thus deanonymization too.

Please do some research before spreading FUD.
You sound like you're on the payroll. :rolleyes:

I don't think Darkcoin should be using any 3rd party infrastructure at all beyond 'the internet,' on general principles. Anything TOR can do that's of any advantage can be done internally/independently.
 

darkstrike420

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You sound like you're on the payroll. :rolleyes:

I don't think Darkcoin should be using any 3rd party infrastructure at all beyond 'the internet,' on general principles. Anything TOR can do that's of any advantage can be done internally/independently.
Read my edits, then continue talk shit if you can.

You can ask every masternode operator to pay 200$+/month for DDOS protection and bandwidth costs.
 

thelonecrouton

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Using Tor as an out-proxy is completely different than using Tor for hidden service.
Edit: Why do you care about this so much? Even using Tor as an ddos protection is a huge gain.

Being so scared about Tor being runned by NSA just calls you out as a criminal. Are you a criminal?
You have just fully outed yourself. Obviously, distrust of a guv spookproject makes me a criminal! Probably a turrist too! :eek:

Even before Torproject fixed an anonymity problem with Hidden services, it took 3 months to find out the IP address of an hidden service. Now imagine if this vulnerability existed. It would take 3 * 2000 months to shutdown all Masternodes of Darkcoin. 6000 months = 500 years. No one lives for 500 years. Now as this vulnerability is fixed, finding out IP address of hidden service can only be done with software layer vulnerabilities such as SQL Injection(in case of Silk Road 2).
And this is the silliest math I have seen in a long time.
 

darkstrike420

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And this is the silliest math I have seen in a long time.
If my math sucks so bad.. Ok. Now since you're this awesome hacker who doesn't talk out of his ass then go on, please find a Tor vulnerability capable of full deanonymization(hidden services, not out-proxy). If you do this, not only you will get paid but also you will help make Tor better.

You have tor source-code at your fingertips. Should be easy for a professional security researcher such as yourself...

Can you even code? LOL.
 
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UdjinM6

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Guys, take it easy... really...

Now few silly questions from me (no Tor knowledge, to access smth restricted in my beautiful country I still prefer using VPN):
1) is it possible to access smth inside Tor from outside Internet without using Tor specific proxy/smthelse?
2) if "no" does it mean that MNs outside Tor will not be able to talk to MNs inside Tor? -> MN network fragmentation?
3) same ^^ for user wallets
 

darkstrike420

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Guys, take it easy... really...

Now few silly questions from me (no Tor knowledge, to access smth restricted in my beautiful country I still prefer using VPN):
1) is it possible to access smth inside Tor from outside Internet without using Tor specific proxy/smthelse?
2) if "no" does it mean that MNs outside Tor will not be able to talk to MNs inside Tor? -> MN network fragmentation?
3) same ^^ for user wallets
Correct. If masternodes go under Tor then wallets will need Tor installed too.

There are services such as tor2web but those are only for websites and it sucks lol.

If asking users to install Tor is such a problem then Darkcoin can simply host a Tor proxy and announce its Ip address and port publicly for everyone to use.

I think going under Tor for Darkcoin is a huge PR gain too. I am sure Torproject would blog about it and Torproject is known more than bitcoin.

Edit: If traffic encryption between wallet <-> masternode matters too then Tor does it for you.
 
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thelonecrouton

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Correct. If masternodes go under Tor then wallets will need Tor installed too.

There are services such as tor2web but those are only for websites and it sucks lol.
Further adoption killed stone dead right there.

If asking users to install Tor is such a problem then Darkcoin can simply host a Tor proxy and announce its Ip address and port publicly for everyone to use.
Centralised point of failure much?

I think going under Tor for Darkcoin is a huge PR gain too. I am sure Torproject would blog about it and Torproject is known more than bitcoin.
Huge PR gain? "Darkcoin now operating under US Gov funded spook network!" - I don't think so.

Edit: If traffic encryption between wallet <-> masternode matters too then Tor does it for you.
Don't need TOR for this.
 

r-ando

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Wow I just had a break for PR related to the article I just posted, here is another link.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-mano-with-nsa-director-over-crypo-backdoors/

When this happens:

MR: I’ve got a lot of world-class cryptographers at the National Security Agency.

AS: I’ve talked to some of those folks and some of them agree too, but…

MR: Oh, we agree that we don’t accept each other's premise. [laughing]

What the Director of the NSA just said is that his own experts disagree with him on this. And that he puts himself in a different category and group than his own colleagues and experts... ouch! I'd feel ignored if I worked there! He doesn't even accept their premise, do they have a choice to refuse his? Or discuss it? Because a premise is before discussion, right? So he does not even accept the opinion of his experts for discussion? What a joke!

BTW I wonder who are the lobbyists here, are they registered and are their activities within regulation ;)

More importantly, this little joke of his is now something that can be brought up and referenced to specifically, over and over again to counter any opposite arguments, it creates pressure lines in the very foundation of any and every argument that can be used against any kind of encryption every time the subject comes up... Let today be the first day :)

I am naming this the ''MIke Rogers'' defence. --- Even NSA security experts believe in online privacy and encryption according to Mike Rogers. And he is the Director of the NSA.

To answer the question should there be backdoors?

Well, according to Mike Rogers some NSA security experts believe there should not be backdoors. He disagrees with his own experts on this. I personally think its concerning to know a disgruntled employee there or any other party could hack the NSA computers get there hands on the backdoor codes at any time. Its like putting the masterkey on a leaky ship and if history has proven anything its that the NSA is a leaky ship, thank you M. Snowden for warning us of their incompetence even more than their lies :)

I know... coffee break :) hahaha, a little afternoon humor but true nonetheless
 
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UdjinM6

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Correct. If masternodes go under Tor then wallets will need Tor installed too.

There are services such as tor2web but those are only for websites and it sucks lol.

If asking users to install Tor is such a problem then Darkcoin can simply host a Tor proxy and announce its Ip address and port publicly for everyone to use.

I think going under Tor for Darkcoin is a huge PR gain too. I am sure Torproject would blog about it and Torproject is known more than bitcoin.
Hmm... Just quickly read through few tor installation pages - do I get it right that user will have to keep tor browser open to have local tor proxy up? (at least on windows: found some advanced tips for mac os and linux, but not for windows yet)
Hosting a Tor proxy... we'll be FUDed to death of 'yet another central point' / could be DDoSed as well...
 
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darkstrike420

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Further adoption killed stone dead right there.
Centralised point of failure much?
Sure. No DDOS protection with amplification support is more of a central point of failure.

Huge PR gain? "Darkcoin now operating under US Gov funded spook network!" - I don't think so.
Only reason Black markets are successful is because of Tor. Darkcoin will get huge trust if it uses Tor.


Don't need TOR for this.
This is a matter of Evan doing as less work as possible. Sure he can code Tor alternative but how long it will take him? A year.. more? Where is even guarantee that his alternative works properly?

You didn't answer my question. Can you even code? I asked you to find vulnerability in Tor.. Have you found any? Or you're just all talk and do nothin'?

Listen smartass.. What will Darkcoin do when it becomes illegal? All masternodes get raided and shutdown. Darkcoin IX and Darksend won't work thus it becomes useless and completely destroyed.

What the bloody fuck will Darkcoin do? Answer me smartass.

Hmm... Just quickly read through few tor installation pages - do I get it right that user will have to keep tor browser open to have local tor proxy up? (at least on windows: found some advanced tips for mac os and linux, but not for windows yet)
Hosting a Tor proxy... we'll be FUDed to death of 'yet another central point' / could be DDoSed as well...
No. They don't need Tor Browser open. There is standalone Tor bundle and on linux all they do is apt-get install tor. thats it.

Tor browser is only for browsing with flash and other shit disabled which Darkcoin does not need.

Yes hosting a tor proxy is a bad idea. I don't see where is problem for every user to install Tor. It weights only a couple MB's and is open-source.
 
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UdjinM6

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Sure. No DDOS protection with amplification support is more of a central point of failure.



Only reason Black markets are successful is because of Tor. Darkcoin will get huge trust if it uses Tor.




This is a matter of Evan doing as less work as possible. Sure he can code Tor alternative but how long it will take him? A year.. more? Where is even guarantee that his alternative works properly?

You didn't answer my question. Can you even code? I asked you to find vulnerability in Tor.. Have you found any? Or you're just all talk and do nothin'?

Listen smartass.. What will Darkcoin do when it becomes illegal? All masternodes get raided and shutdown. Darkcoin IX and Darksend won't work thus it becomes useless and completely destroyed.

What the bloody fuck will Darkcoin do? Answer me smartass.



No. They don't need Tor Browser open. There is standalone Tor bundle and on linux all they do is apt-get install tor. thats it.

Tor browser is only for browsing with flash and other shit disabled which Darkcoin does not need.

Yes hosting a tor proxy is a bad idea. I don't see where is problem for every user to install Tor. It weights only a couple MB's and is open-source.
cmon, while I feel you have some notable knowledge and I'm thankful for your help to make Darkcoin stronger/survive in bad days I would be even more thankful if you could stop talking in such aggressive manner. We are sharing information here with each other, not trying to figure out who is better programmer or smth... You are not making Tor option look better arguing in such way. I would even say otherwise.
Just calm down and lets find the best solution possible weighting every Pros and Cons.
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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I would like to chime in again here. I have read through this thread with an open mind, and heard each side's pros and cons. After doing this, and taking all aspects of Darkcoin into consideration (i.e. security, usability, future adoption, sustainability), I am firmer into the #1 camp than I was at the beginning. We don't have anything to fear, we will always survive, we have shown that time and time again. Let's not rely on third party capabilities. Besides, is building our own TOR not on our list of long-term plans? We could do better.
My 2 Duffs, FWIW.
 

darkstrike420

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cmon, while I feel you have some notable knowledge and I'm thankful for your help to make Darkcoin stronger/survive in bad days I would be even more thankful if you could stop talking in such aggressive manner. We are sharing information here with each other, not trying to figure out who is better programmer or smth... You are not making Tor option look better arguing in such way. I would even say otherwise.
Just calm down and lets find the best solution possible weighting every Pros and Cons.
I am not being aggressive, I am sorry if you thought I am. I called him a smartass because he sure acts smart and "bloody fuck" is just a figure of speech from England.

Though I don't like these guys who talk much about stuff they know nothing about and when asked to do anything to support their claim they leave like nothing ever happened.

I am not even trying to force Tor on anyone. I think Darkcoin will suceed even when being on Clearnet. But in case of illegality, it will look extremely bad(punishable by law?) of the developer to drag it under an anonymizing service to keep his project alive and being illegal it cannot live in the clearnet.

Right now, I think Evan should focus mainly on IX and DS and return to this topic in a couple months.
 

darkstrike420

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Besides, is building our own TOR not on our list of long-term plans? We could do better.
My 2 Duffs, FWIW.
Building an efficient too like Tor requires strong networking knowledge. Its a huge risk to say the least. Why not use open-source & peer-to-peer available solutions right now? I2P is one, though I have heard Torproject is planning to decentralize dir-auth-servers too.
 
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strix

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I suspect that the authorities will make owning masternodes difficult before they actually try to make it illegal--at least in jurisdictions which try to maintain a veneer of democracy. I would suggest that the first shot over the bow against DRK, will be the discovery that someone's Coinbase acct. was dropped because they bought DRK. Does anyone know if there is any evidence of this yet? Coinbase is proving a very effective repository of FUD through their refusal to give clear reason for their actions, which leave participants guessing as to why their accounts have been closed.

Just poked my head in for a moment and need to run. The conversation thus far has been very enlightening; but try to keep it civil. :rolleyes:
 
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illodin

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I agree with this. Just because you are paying for 10 IP addresses doesn't mean your VPS instances aren't all running on the same physical box.
My VPS provider has datacenters all around the world, and that has allowed me to spread my nodes globally. I don't expect everyone else to do so as every dollar saved counts right now, but when the price gets higher (like 10x what it is now or so) people won't be so cheap with their masternodes anymore and will give more thought as to where and how to run them.


Regarding TOR, hosting the Masternodes on a network designed and funded by the NSA doesn't seem like a great idea to me.
I'm not sure if trying to fight the NSA is something that should be wasted resources on. They already know everything. They have backdoors in every CPU, motherboard, video card, router, hard drive, everywhere. If using tor is something that stops everyone else then imo it should be used until something better comes along.


Wrt users having to install tor - if it's open source, does the license allow adding only the needed parts to the darkcoin wallet so there would be no need to install anything extra?
 

illodin

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Building an efficient too like Tor requires strong networking knowledge. Its a huge risk to say the least. Why not use open-source & peer-to-peer available solutions right now? I2P is one, though I have heard Torproject is planning to decentralize dir-auth-servers too.
If the functionality is limited i.e. it only has to work with Darkcoin network and not support everything from ftp to streaming multimedia, would it be easier?
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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Fun futuristic scenario:

Imagine in 2020, the US and 60 other countries declare Darkcoin illegal.

Evan, from his bunker somewhere in Siberian Russia, issues the command we've all been waiting for:

"Please update to Darkcoin Stealth v1.0.0: Includes the fix for complete network invisibility!"

The network promptly updates, and effectively disappears.

Prices skyrocket past 1000 BTC...

Ahhhhh... That was great!

Snap back to reality now.
 

darkstrike420

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If the functionality is limited i.e. it only has to work with Darkcoin network and not support everything from ftp to streaming multimedia, would it be easier?
Not at all. All you mentioned is using TCP, by supporting the HTTP protocol he automatically supports FTP and everything else because HTTP and FTP and most others are built on top of TCP. He has to support TCP, if DRK uses UDP then UDP too. Tor doesn't even support UDP.
 
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jpr

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Fun futuristic scenario:

Imagine in 2020, the US and 60 other countries declare Darkcoin illegal.

Evan, from his bunker somewhere in Siberian Russia, issues the command we've all been waiting for:

"Please update to Darkcoin Stealth v1.0.0: Includes the fix for complete network invisibility!"

The network promptly updates, and effectively disappears.

Prices skyrocket past 1000 BTC...

Ahhhhh... That was great!

Snap back to reality now.
Moving from Arizona to Siberian Russia lol. He would have to take a lot of miners with him to keep him warm :D