Rebranding Followup

GreyGhost

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"Darkcoin is now what Bitcoin should / could have been." Bitcoins 6,129 nodes as of Thu Mar 12 2015 10:10:05 GMT+0100 already have a serious competition in the Darkcoin's own blockchain, its Masternode Network that boast 2,307 MNs, as of Thu Mar 12 2015 10:21:21 AM. ("last refreshed")

Sources: https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/ & https://drk.mn/masternodes.html

Darkcoin to me seems as a three-tiered property whose:

++ InstantX solves Bitcoin's problem (speed) and with its value proposition InstantX introduces, is inductive to merchants, services and customers for wider adoption. It is perfectly legal and traceable on the merchant / services side who know who purchased their products or services;

++ Coins
transaction in between individuals (from my wallets to your wallet) or on coin markets exchanges is perfectly legitimate use of a property (Darkcoin should be defined as a property or an asset, in order to avoid governmental interference if it would insist to be a "currency," issuance of which is a monopoly given to the Central Banks. Term "virtual currency" is already treated as property for U.S. Federal Tax Purposes.” ) as any other barter arrangements;

++ DarkSend is a privacy-centric feature of Darkcoin that could be, for example, used by opposition in oppressive regimes, or for the confidential payments for services where my anonymity is important to me (addiction issues, abortion, loans to friends and lovers...), or for the whistle-blowers support. Also, political and / or news organization could accept anonymous donations
if a donor is not comfortable revealing his or her identity etc. given the surveillance culture we live in.

This is the Darkcoin's ONLY "dubious" feature - in the current climate the Overlords do not want us to be free or have privacy. But as much as the Federal Reserve Bank and / or its chairman are not responsible if someone uses their fiat currency for nefarious activities, no one from this community should be either. If the legal authorities have a suspect and take them in, his or her wallet would reveal DarkSend transactions. If those were for a gay lover of a married man, it's no one business. If those support illegal activities, it's not my business, let's the legal system deal with it and find out.

And now, should the name Darkcoin be changed? IMHO, not in this phase. InstantX Transactions powered by Darkcoin Technology could mask it well enough :)
 
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balu

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If we ever gonna change the name, do it now. And stick with the name for good. The smaller Darkcoin's brand recognition is, the easier we can change name. There is no point building up a brand just to drop it in a year.
 

alex-ru

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I am not an expert in international trademarking but think:

Dash is generic word so it must be impossible to trademark it.

But it may be possible to trademark:

1. phrases like "dash platform", "dash finance", "dash payments", ...
2. different graphical logos, fonts with "Dash"

So we can trademark let say "dash crypto" - people will anyway will say just "dash" - but this will limit us (and our partners) in creating new products like "dash finance" and so on... :(
So it may be better to choose some unique, not generic name... But "apple" have some experience in this area :)

 
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fernando

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I have just catched up with more than 10 pages of messages, so instead of answering many of them, I will just do a long post to answer a few things that have been asked:

1. Vertoe

Vertoe leaving is very bad. Nobody is minimizing that. He was a great asset for the project and I hate that, because of how we miss handled communication, he's now gone. However, I also believe that when someone disagrees with something, just leaving is not the best response. I still respect him a lot and will sure miss him, but I would have liked he gave us a chance.

I'm just speculating here, but I think Vertoe was angry before, and this was one more thing. There were a few things he disagreed with and he expressed that in the past, besides his ideas about dark markets, tor and such.The rest of us should probably have seen this coming, but we didn't.

As for what has been done to try to keep him, I know Evan has tried to reach out to him. This is private communication between them two, so I don't know the details. I just know it hasn't worked. Anyway, since this started it was very clear that there was no way back. Before anyone could blink he had sold his coins, posted everywhere that darkcoin was over (including in another related project github repository), deleted the translations site and his price monitor.

2. The legalities of DASH

The name DASH came out of one of the many branding discussions we've had in the community. Many people seemed to like it, including Evan and most of the members of the foundation's board, so we did some research before starting the discussion openly with the community. The specialized lawyer saw that there was someone trying to get a trademark, so in order to contest that successfully, Evan bought dashcoin out of his own pocket. The original idea was to finalize the work with the lawyer to know for sure that we could use the brand before engaging with everyone, but something got mixed between darkcoin and dashcoin github accounts by accident. To avoid crazy speculation, Evan announced that we were exploring that idea. It that accident had not happened, there would have been a more structured communication process, but things were rushed up because of that.

Some people are wondering why are we going to such trouble to use that brand. The reason is that it was the option that seemed to have more people in the community behind. This doesn't mean other options are closed, but I haven't seen any other option with real support yet.

3. Changes in comms

Evan is fully committed to improving the internal communication within the team and with the community. We are still working out some ideas, but expect more info soon. As someone has said, we are all volunteers, we have been doing this for a short time, most of us do this taking time out of other activities and we are around the world. Communicating is not that easy to master!!!
 

alex-ru

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Some people are wondering why are we going to such trouble to use that brand. The reason is that it was the option that seemed to have more people in the community behind. This doesn't mean other options are closed, but I haven't seen any other option with real support yet.
Thanks for info.

Just to remind - we need reliable name not only for today - but for future worldwide acceptance. So if there any little risk that "Dash" name can spoil or limit futher growth and using of DRK (in terms of law, trademarks) - we should use another name (even if it will be not so cool as DASH).
 

flare

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I have just catched up with more than 10 pages of messages, so instead of answering many of them, I will just do a long post to answer a few things that have been asked:

1. Vertoe

Vertoe leaving is very bad. Nobody is minimizing that. He was a great asset for the project and I hate that, because of how we miss handled communication, he's now gone. However, I also believe that when someone disagrees with something, just leaving is not the best response. I still respect him a lot and will sure miss him, but I would have liked he gave us a chance.

I'm just speculating here, but I think Vertoe was angry before, and this was one more thing. There were a few things he disagreed with and he expressed that in the past, besides his ideas about dark markets, tor and such.The rest of us should probably have seen this coming, but we didn't.

As for what has been done to try to keep him, I know Evan has tried to reach out to him. This is private communication between them two, so I don't know the details. I just know it hasn't worked. Anyway, since this started it was very clear that there was no way back. Before anyone could blink he had sold his coins, posted everywhere that darkcoin was over (including in another related project github repository), deleted the translations site and his price monitor.

2. The legalities of DASH

The name DASH came out of one of the many branding discussions we've had in the community. Many people seemed to like it, including Evan and most of the members of the foundation's board, so we did some research before starting the discussion openly with the community. The specialized lawyer saw that there was someone trying to get a trademark, so in order to contest that successfully, Evan bought dashcoin out of his own pocket. The original idea was to finalize the work with the lawyer to know for sure that we could use the brand before engaging with everyone, but something got mixed between darkcoin and dashcoin github accounts by accident. To avoid crazy speculation, Evan announced that we were exploring that idea. It that accident had not happened, there would have been a more structured communication process, but things were rushed up because of that.

Some people are wondering why are we going to such trouble to use that brand. The reason is that it was the option that seemed to have more people in the community behind. This doesn't mean other options are closed, but I haven't seen any other option with real support yet.

3. Changes in comms

Evan is fully committed to improving the internal communication within the team and with the community. We are still working out some ideas, but expect more info soon. As someone has said, we are all volunteers, we have been doing this for a short time, most of us do this taking time out of other activities and we are around the world. Communicating is not that easy to master!!!
Thanks fernando, very good summary of what happenend and i back every single line of it.

For me nothing of the fundamentals of this project have changed during the last days, i am still committed to it and continue to be part of the developer team.

Thanks for the hard work in the background, all of you. Without the helping hands of the many people this project would have not been posssible.

Holger
 

oblox

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fernando

Can you elaborate more on the something got mixed between darkcoin and dashcoin github accounts by accident? Also, because Evan has bought Dashcoin out, what is really happening with their existing coin--from the BCT thread, to the existing markets on various exchanges (granted, dead volume), etc?
 
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crowning

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fernando

Can you elaborate more on the something got mixed between darkcoin and dashcoin github accounts by accident? Also, because Evan has bought Dashcoin out, what is really happening with their existing coin--from the BCT thread, to the existing markets on various exchanges (granted, dead volume), etc?
Have a look at WHO has commented on my pull request over at Github:

https://github.com/dashcoin-dsh?tab=activity
 
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flare

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fernando

Can you elaborate more on the something got mixed between darkcoin and dashcoin github accounts by accidentically?
It's simple as this: Evan took over the "dashcoin-dsh" account on github and forgot to log out before commenting on a darkcoin github issue. He immediately noticed this error and to avoid confusion and to prevent a troll fest he decided to inform the forum about the rebranding.
 

oblox

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Have a look at WHO has commented on my pull request over at Github:

https://github.com/dashcoin-dsh?tab=activity
Ah, so it seems Evan was logged in with the other account when he made that comment? Not sure how comments work in that regard because actually following to the pull, it's now under the evan82 account with the same text that is under the dash one.

EDIT: I see flare beat me to it.
 
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oblox

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It's simple as this: Evan took over the "dashcoin-dsh" account on github and forgot to log out before commenting on a darkcoin github issue. He immediately noticed this error and to avoid confusion and to prevent a troll fest he decided to inform the forum about the rebranding.
So once you make a comment, there is no way to delete that history? It remains static and part of the account regardless?
 

flare

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So once you make a comment, there is no way to delete that history? It remains static and part of the account regardless?
The history can be deleted and Evan did that - but all developers watching the github project got an email with the comment as "dashcoin-dsh". There was no way back after this.

EDIT: this is the Email all people got

 
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fernando

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Ah, so it seems Evan was logged in with the other account when he made that comment? Not sure how comments work in that regard because actually following to the pull, it's now under the evan82 account with the same text that is under the dash one.

EDIT: I see flare beat me to it.
He also beat me :)

Regarding the coin, I'm not sure what the process will be, but it was dead already and the dev had abandoned the project. I can think of two possibilities, but maybe Evan has other ideas:
-Ask for it to be delisted and delete the threads to avoid confusion
-Change the name to another thing in case somebody wants to rescue it

This makes me wonder... where do coins go when they die? :)

Seriously, many projects have disappeared in the last year... just abandoned repositories and threads?
 

yidakee

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Well, one "problem" has been solved. A project I hope to work with kindly allowed I use the URL in the meantime for the quad-screen price monitor

http://helpwithcoins.org

For this future project, the name change couldn't have come at a better time!! I was pushing Darkcoin, and ONLY got taken seriously because of its undisputed anonymity.

Now lets all roll-up our sleeves and get back to work! flare - is it possible to create a new transifex account and push back to it? If so, please create it and grant me privileges and I'm happy to coordinate that effort.

Or if you want I can create it myself.

.
 

flare

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Well, one "problem" has been solved. A project I hope to work with kindly allowed I use the URL in the meantime for the quad-screen price monitor

http://helpwithcoins.org

For this future project, the name change couldn't have come at a better time!! I was pushing Darkcoin, and ONLY got taken seriously because of its undisputed anonymity.

Now lets all roll-up our sleeves and get back to work! flare - is it possible to create a new transifex account and push back to it? If so, please create it and grant me privileges and I'm happy to coordinate that effort.

Or if you want I can create it myself.

.
I already recreated the transifex project, but need some time to restore it from git. If you want to help out feel free to join :)
 

stonehedge

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Hello Everyone,

I wanted to just follow up with the rebranding discussion that the community has been having since I posted yesterday and clarify some misconceptions that are going around in the community.

First thing is, the name change isn’t final. We’re opening this up to discussion by the community, the only thing that’s known at this time is the name “Darkcoin” has some negative perception by businesses we’ve reached out to. They’ve said, it’s not the privacy centric nature of the product, but the name that is unfortunate.

The name “Dash” was recommended by the community some time ago. We picked up on that and the foundation began investigating the use of it and found a trademark application. The whole reason we’ve acquired the rights, was not because the decision was final, but because we need to challenge that trademark application to even be able to use the name, otherwise it’s a complete non-starter.

We’re absolutely open to everyone’s input and always have been. We would like this process to be 100% transparent as possible. In the community supports it, I would support hiring a firm to handle the rebranding for us. We could allow the firm to engage directly and transparently with the community, then have foundation members vote on the final decision.

Originally when the community started talking about rebranding months ago, we also began talking about it internally. It’s obvious that we missed something in the process and I’d also like to apologize on behalf of myself and the foundation’s board for this.
When can we expect a formal statement from the Foundation about the next steps? Maybe a press release on darkcoin.io would be appropriate followed by a clear but simple plan.

I fear if we don't get strong direction soon, some momentum on the project will be lost. If we get this re-branding right, it will open hundreds of new doors to us. If we delay, some of the impact will be lost. I'm really keen that we seize the opportunity.
 
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oblox

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When can we expect a formal statement from the Foundation about the next steps? Maybe a press release on darkcoin.io would be appropriate followed by a clear but simple plan.

I fear if we don't get strong direction soon, some momentum on the project will be lost. If we get this re-branding right, it will open hundreds of new doors to us. If we delay, some of the impact will be lost. I'm really keen that we seize the opportunity.
I think the biggest thing is lawyer limbo right now about even being able to use Dash as a viable option. To mention this in any sort of official capacity without first securing the right to use it is a dangerous path to go down. I'd be interesting in knowing more about how far along the contested trademark is; at the same time, I realize not all details can be expressed... yet. I would like to know more about Evan buying the rights to Dashcoin though and how that all plays out. Certainly we need to get the greenlight to be able to use Dash and then make it official as the new name (always the possibility something better comes along). I didn't see volume in DSH for to signify Evan buying the coins and with their project being open source, I'm more or less curious how this would play out if/when we were able to go down that path.

Regardless, when the rebrand happens, it should be absolutely imperative to talk to all the exchanges about preventing any sort of altcoin from using Darkcoin as a name for X period (I'm also assuming Evan is securing trademarks on that as well). This would prevent any sort of confusion. Further, contacting coinmarketcap and having them list us as "New Name - (Formerly Darkcoin)" and being able to search Darkcoin and come to the new coin page, maybe even with a notice of PR on the name change would be ideal for some transitionary period (6 months perhaps). Might take a donation of BTC for some slight edits but a lot of people reference that site and it would do good to not lose exposure thinking that some new coin bumped Darkcoin out of the top 5.
 

GreyGhost

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http://radixhealth.com
PO Box 669515
Marietta, GEORGIA 30066
UNITED STATES is ONE of the owners of the trademark "DASH" for: "Computer hardware and software, for use with medical patient monitoring equipment, for receiving, processing, transmitting and displaying data; Computer software for controlling and managing patient medical information; Computer software for physician practices and healthcare institutions to schedule patient encounters and clinical resources and instructional user guides sold as a unit; Medical software for scheduling patient encounters and clinical resources."

US Serial Number: 86545418

The rest could be seen / found by searching here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4802:4qpmua.1.1

No one owns the term "Darkcoin" though :)
 

CODERsp

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Can somebody explain me what happened such dramatic, so there are so much disputes, members leave project and tell, that Darkcoin has no future? Does really rebranding so much cares and ultimately resists? I'm almost year in DRK and I'm ordinary investor and I see only positive dynamic. I had displeasure about MNs work, but otherwise almost is perfect and currently MN payments too. From 1 July when I made my first investment Darkcoin became from raw product to strong with clear vision in future development and the last Evan message with futher policy inspires me. Maybe I don't understand something. What was exactly unacceptable by Vertoe and others which are dissatisfied? Maybe, that Evan didn't get 100% votes in foundation? Or what? Thanks.
 
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oblox

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http://radixhealth.com
PO Box 669515
Marietta, GEORGIA 30066
UNITED STATES is ONE of the owners of the trademark "DASH" for: "Computer hardware and software, for use with medical patient monitoring equipment, for receiving, processing, transmitting and displaying data; Computer software for controlling and managing patient medical information; Computer software for physician practices and healthcare institutions to schedule patient encounters and clinical resources and instructional user guides sold as a unit; Medical software for scheduling patient encounters and clinical resources."

US Serial Number: 86545418

The rest could be seen / found by searching here: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4802:4qpmua.1.1

No one owns the term "Darkcoin" though :)
How is that trademark remotely close to a currency?
 

bigrcanada

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Can somebody explain me what happened such dramatic, so there are so much disputes, members leave project and tell, that Darkcoin has no future? Does really rebranding so much cares and ultimately resists? I'm almost year in DRK and I'm ordinary investor and I see only positive dynamic. I had displeasure about MNs work, but otherwise almost is perfect and currently MN payments too. From 1 July when I made my first investment Darkcoin became from raw product to strong with clear vision in future development and the last Evan message with futher policy inspires me. Maybe I don't understand something. What was exactly unacceptable by Vertoe and others which are dissatisfied? Maybe, that Evan didn't get 100% votes in foundation? Or what? Thanks.
Rebranding is super important. For the sake of not re-hashing the many reasons why it is imperative that we rebrand. Please read some very well written comments on this thread.
 

oblox

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AjM

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Can somebody explain me what happened such dramatic, so there are so much disputes, members leave project and tell, that Darkcoin has no future? Does really rebranding so much cares and ultimately resists? I'm almost year in DRK and I'm ordinary investor and I see only positive dynamic. I had displeasure about MNs work, but otherwise almost is perfect and currently MN payments too. From 1 July when I made my first investment Darkcoin became from raw product to strong with clear vision in future development and the last Evan message with futher policy inspires me. Maybe I don't understand something. What was exactly unacceptable by Vertoe and others which are dissatisfied? Maybe, that Evan didn't get 100% votes in foundation? Or what? Thanks.
https://darkcointalk.org/threads/rebranding-followup.4266/page-25#post-46128
 

jimbit

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OUCH:

http://www.trademarkia.com/dash-86360059.html
transmission of digital music and entertainment-related audio, video, text and multimedia content; computer software for enabling transmission, storage, sharing, collection, editing, organizing and modifying audio, video, messages, images and other data for use in Internet radio, social networking, online chats and interactive gaming, for use in creating social networking databases an...
 

jimbit

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Again, one could argue that is specific to "entertainment-related" content, something that Darkcoin as it currently is, doesn't offer. A trademark lawyer would be more knowledgeable than any of us here.
I should have been more specific.. I was 'ouching' this part:
online chats and interactive gaming
as I can see our dash being used with online gaming... and also possible anonymous messaging



edit: 'our dash' see what i did there ;)
 

oblox

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I should have been more specific.. I was 'ouching' this part:

as I can see our dash being used with online gaming... and also possible anonymous messaging
Well, it would have to be an integrated feature into the coin itself to have issues (to my knowledge). I don't personally see either being an embedded feature. If you're a business and accept Visa/Mastercard, are you infringing on their trademarks? No. Any third party is free to accept and integrate products and services into their businesses--whether they run into issues depends on what exactly they are doing.

I'm certain all this is being vetted and considered during the trademark process. I don't think Evan (and the Foundation) are intentionally setting themselves up for failure.