Pre-Proposal: Let all the actors (MNOs, Miners, Stakeholders) vote, then take into account only MNOs

Let all the actors to vote, just for statistical reasons while their vote does not count.


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demo

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Although practically speaking, I don't think that this should necessarily be a priority right now, I am open to the idea of allowing other actors to participate in governance, if it can somehow be identified what their stake in the network is, and the amount of power they have should reflect that stake. In theory. Realistically though, there are probably insane technical barriers to attempting this not to mention even evaluating how much power the other actors should have. Unless someone comes out with even the roughest blueprint for how it would work, I think our governance is good enough.
In order to create a blueprint for how it would work, the first step is to take the statistics. There is not blueprint without statistics.
So you have to allow the actors to express their opinion, take the statistics on how accurate their opinion was in depth of times, and then define a model for the optimal governance (that may also be dynamic and change in time).

Asking a rough blueprint on how the programmable governance will work without allowing the opinions of the actors to be heard, is like asking to make a weather prediction, without allowing to have weather sensors. If you have no weather sensors at all, not even the weather model can be created. The weather models have been discovered, and they can predict the weather now, because of the existance of the weather sensors. Similarly the programnable governance model can be discovered, only if you allow the opinions of the actors to be recorded.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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uport.me

but then maybe the whole dash project should be re-implemented on Ethereum...
imo Ethereum not a good choice but it would be a better platform than the current one
 

TroyDASH

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In order to create a blueprint for how it would work, the first step is to take the statistics. There is not blueprint without statistics.
So you have to allow the actors to express their opinion, take the statistics on how accurate their opinion was in depth of times, and then define a model for the optimal governance (that may also be dynamic and change in time).

Asking a rough blueprint on how the programmable governance will work without allowing the opinions of the actors to be heard, is like asking to make a weather prediction, without allowing to have weather sensors. If you have no weather sensors at all, not even the weather model can be created. The weather models have been discovered, and they can predict the weather now, because of the existance of the weather sensors. Similarly the programnable governance model can be discovered, only if you allow the opinions of the actors to be recorded.
We don't exactly have statistics, but that doesn't mean we can't still gather whatever data is available. If there are any big miners or merchants or whoever who have ideas that are different from that of the MN consensus, I'd be interested to hear them out, and explore whether or not their perspective is representative of the class. We can already do that to some extent right here on the forum or other public communication channels without needing to rework the protocol. It's just that I haven't heard too many people who aren't MNOs come forward who could also be considered to be comparably staked by other measures. It might be too early for that to be a significant population.
 

TroyDASH

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I can add to the poll whatever poll choice reflects better your opinion on the subject (or out off the subject). So let me know if you wish a poll choice to be added.

<vote history> Let all the actors to vote, just for statistical reasons while their vote does not count. *yes 1 vote(s) 50.0%, no 1 vote(s) 50.0%. other 0 vote(s) 0.0% </vote history>
How about 'yes, but let them vote by contributing their views on the forum and self-identifying the class(es) of actor they wish to represent'
Which happens to be already allowed and does not require spending valuable resources.
Got nothing against data gathering--

If there appears to be an interesting discrepancy/pattern that emerges and warrants additional research then we can go from there.
 
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demo

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Either that or simply make dash an Ethereum token.. either way it would benefit from the ecosystem, including identity, while retaining it's status as "digital cash"
If you built Dash on top of ethereum , then Dash's price will be dependant on ethereum's price (like it happened to the DAOhub case). And most important, Dash governance will be dependant on ethereum's governance, and this is bad as long as ethereum has no governance (as far as I know).

So a better idea is to take the opensource code of ethereum , and transform it to Dash code, similar to what @eduffield did to bitcoin code.

<vote history>
Let all the actors to vote, just for statistical reasons while their vote does not count.
*yes 1 vote(s) 33.3%
no 1 vote(s) 33.3%
other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
yes, but let them vote by contributing on the forum and self-identifying which actor they are 1 vote(s) 33.3%

</vote history>
 
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demo

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<vote history>
Let all the actors to vote, just for statistical reasons while their vote does not count.
*yes 1 vote(s) 25.0%
no 2 vote(s) 50.0%
other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
'yes, but let them vote by contributing on the forum and self-identifying which actor they are 1 vote(s) 25.0%
</vote history>
 

GrandMasterDash

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Look at all those that mark you down as trolling, the same old people. They are reading this comment that I am writing now and they are itching to mark me as trolling too. It's okay, what goes around comes around.

In the end, it will become blatantly clear that the wishes of end users must be broadly in line with all the key stakeholders, whether that is developers, auditors, miners or MNOs. Right now, dash is functioning in business terms; that is to say, there is greed on two opposing sides that seek to find a middle ground that doesn't piss off the other side so much that they abandon. Should money be defined in such terms? - no, because that's what gave us banking; money for money's sake... money charges for handling money... the irony.

@demo I think you should roll your separate ideas into one grand vision because, to me at least, they are all connected. Having said that, I don't think you should post those ideas here alone, because there is no way a small sized and small minded group of people here will ever escape their own madness. For even if they were to listen, tomorrow would be a new day and the madness would start all over.

Above everything else, a cryptocurrency can only have value when it has relevance... it has absolutely NOTHING to do with "limited supply" yadda yadda yadda. This means an ongoing commitment to meet the needs of everyone on Earth. There needs to be good governance, fairness and formal verification. There also needs to be a slight inflation (to offset the losses through natural means) that also plays against some sort of dividend... and maybe even a basic universal income - who knows - but regardless, you won't find a vision like that here.
 

demo

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@demo I think you should roll your separate ideas into one grand vision because, to me at least, they are all connected. Having said that, I don't think you should post those ideas here alone, because there is no way a small sized and small minded group of people here will ever escape their own madness. For even if they were to listen, tomorrow would be a new day and the madness would start all over.
I also think that the ideas are connected, and I am glad that you can see the whole picture. But until now, the only way I spread the ideas is talking to the internet anonymously.

The grand vision requires people to read it. But most of the people dont like to read grand visions, they prefer the small quotes. Thats why I think that writing a manifest will only advertise myself, and not help very much the cause I am serving. And of course a manifest is difficult to write, and maybe contains errors and wrong ideas. Thats why I havent write any manifest until now. It is due to the difficulty I have to write it. Difficulty which is not proportional to its readability. And if an error or a wrong idea is discovered, the whole manifest is defamed, and this is a pitty for the rest ideas that reside into the manifest.

Finally most of the ideas I deal with they refer to cryptocurrency communities that have governance, and such communities are rare worldwide.

Thats why I am stuck here.

<vote history>
Let all the actors to vote, just for statistical reasons while their vote does not count.
yes 2 vote(s) 33.3%
no 3 vote(s) 50.0%
other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
'yes, but let them vote by contributing on the forum and self-identifying which actor they are 1 vote(s) 16.7%
</vote history>
 
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demo

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<vote history>
Let all the actors to vote, just for statistical reasons while their vote does not count.
yes 2 vote(s) 28.6%
no 4 vote(s) 57.1%
other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
'yes, but let them vote by contributing on the forum and self-identifying which actor they are 1 vote(s) 14.3%
</vote history>
 

demo

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I think that, after the mess that is happening nowdays, the community must reconsider the dogma that the masternode owners should be the ones who decide about Dash's future.

At least give a chance for all actors to record their opinion, so that in the future we will see who was right and who was wrong.
 

demo

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This is dumb.
So you are afraid for the opinion of the rest actors to be recorded?
Why you are so afraid of it?
Maybe because the historical records will prove who was right and who was wrong?

<vote history>
Let all the actors to vote, just for statistical reasons while their vote does not count.
yes 2 vote(s) 25.0%
no 5 vote(s) 62.5%
other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
'yes, but let them vote by contributing on the forum and self-identifying which actor they are 1 vote(s) 12.5%
</vote history>
 

demo

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This is a nice example where all actors are recorded.
https://vote.bitcoin.com/

Of course the poll results that this site is calculating is towards the POS point of view.
But as long as the votes are recorded, nothing prevents someone to do an improvement and present the results of the polls from the point of view of separate actors.

So the first step, record all actors, is achieved in https://vote.bitcoin.com/
 
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demo

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Well, why don't you just create a site like that? (just FYI, I wound't use it)
Because I think that this should happen officialy. All opinions must be gathered together, in an official and indisputable way, so that we could compare them without the doubt that someone is cheating, altering or changing those opinions. The gathering of the opinions should be done officialy by the Dash "state". It should not be an initiative of a private citizen like me.

Thats why a proposal should be added into the budget system.

I wish I could have 0.33 dash into my account, in order to be able to add this proposal into the budget system. But I have not, and I have not found yet someone who wants to offer me some work to do, in order to gain this remaining of 0.23 dash (in order to reach the 0.33 dash amount into my account).

So, do you have some work to offer me, and pay me 0,23 dash for it?
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Because I think that this should happen officialy. All opinions must be gathered together, in an official and indisputable way, so that we could compare them without the doubt that someone is cheating, altering or changing those opinions. The gathering of the opinions should be done officialy by the Dash "state". It should not be an initiative of a private citizen like me.

Thats why a proposal should be added into the budget system.

I wish I could have 0.33 dash into my account, in order to be able to add this proposal into the budget system. But I have not, and I have not found yet someone who wants to offer me some work to do, in order to gain this remaining of 0.23 dash (in order to reach the 0.33 dash amount into my account).

So, do you have some work to offer me, and pay me 0,23 dash for it?
Actually, I'm thinking maybe dash needs a completely independent auditor and something like this would fit with that independent position i.e. a neutral voice that can recommend what the various stakeholders want.
 

demo

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Actually, I'm thinking maybe dash needs a completely independent auditor and something like this would fit with that independent position i.e. a neutral voice that can recommend what the various stakeholders want.
The votes should be recorded into the masternodes.
Although the votes cannot be counterfeitered (because of the PKI technology) someone may claim that some votes are deleted (or they are false) and thus the result has no real value. Thats why an independent auditor will not be accepted easily by the masternodes.

The target is the masternodes themselves. Those are the ones that should be convinced that a specific actor may decide better than they are. Thats why the masternodes are the ones who should host the votes, into a clustered sychronized database. And this requires a proposal of course.
 
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Macrochip

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It should not be an initiative of a private citizen like me.
Dashcentral.org is not an "official" initiative.
Dashvotetracker.com is not an "official" initiative.
Dashous.com is not an "official" initiative.
Dashnation.com is not an "official" initiative.
WeLoveDash.com is not an "official" initiative.

This is a decentralized project. Anyone can contribute and add value without permission from any "officials". Aren't you the one promoting the anti-authoritative stance here?
 

demo

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Dashcentral.org is not an "official" initiative.
Dashvotetracker.com is not an "official" initiative.
Dashous.com is not an "official" initiative.
Dashnation.com is not an "official" initiative.
WeLoveDash.com is not an "official" initiative.

This is a decentralized project. Anyone can contribute and add value without permission from any "officials". Aren't you the one promoting the anti-authoritative stance here?
Yes of course. But all those projects are just aggregators. All the information they gather resides into the culstered synchronized databases of the masternodes.

Voting is a troll issue, it is enough to have a tiny doubt about the procedure, and the whole thing is canceled. This is also the reason why electronic voting is not yet implemented in almost any real life state. Voting is a troll issue, and when we deal with it we must take all precautions required in order nobody to be able to troll about it.
 

Macrochip

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The site you linked, vote.bitcoin.com, solved that issue with cryptography: The more coins you own the louder your voice. You can't "troll" that system by faking more Bitcoin than you actually have. If the site fakes voting outcomes anyone will be able to see that on the blockchain and they will damage their reputation massively.
 

demo

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The site you linked, vote.bitcoin.com, solved that issue with cryptography: The more coins you own the louder your voice. You can't "troll" that system by faking more Bitcoin than you actually have. If the site fakes voting outcomes anyone will be able to see that on the blockchain and they will damage their reputation massively.
If I was the sysadmin of https://vote.bitcoin.com/, I could troll the system by deleting votes.
This is the flaw of their system, and a subject to troll.

To solve this flaw, a clustered sychronized database is required. A database that is owned by more than one persons so that if someone deletes a vote, everyone else will observe it. We already have this infrastructure, it is called masternodes.
 
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Macrochip

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If I was the sysadmin of https://vote.bitcoin.com/, I could troll the system by deleting votes.
This is the flaw of their system, and a subject to troll.

Thats why a clustered sychronized database is required, that is owned by more than one persons.
We already have this infrastructure, it is called masternodes.
Interesting. So you found a way to delete information from the blockchain of every network participant's hard drive. Looking forward to your whitepaper!
 

demo

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Interesting. So you found a way to delete information from the blockchain of every network participant's hard drive. Looking forward to your whitepaper!
You misunderstood me. I didnt said that. I said the reverse.

In order for nobody to be able to delete votes, votes must be recorded into a clustered sychronized database owned by more than one persons. We already have such an infrastructure, and it is called masternodes.

Thats why this proposal targets masternodes, and not an independant individual. An independant is going to built a centralized infrastructure and thus he will be free to delete votes, without the voter to be able to prove that his vote is deleted.
 

Macrochip

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You misundestood me. I didnt said that. I said the reverse.
How could I have misunderstood you? It was exactly what you said:
If I was the sysadmin of https://vote.bitcoin.com/, I could troll the system by deleting votes.
In order for nobody to be able to delete votes, a clustered sychronized database is required.
Which is exactly what's being done there. Voters sign a message with their Bitcoin holdings. Where do you think the signature is stored? On that website?!
 

demo

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Which is exactly what's being done there. Voters sign a message with their Bitcoin holdings. Where do you think the signature is stored? On that website?!
Yes this is what I believed. Where the signatures (and the proposals) of https://vote.bitcoin.com/ are stored? Into the bitcoin blockchain? I think not...Prove me I am wrong.
 
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Macrochip

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Yes.

You can store anything on the blockchain. It's a permissionless ledger. Satoshi stored a newspaper headline in the genesis block. People store marriage vows on the blockchain. Storing an unforgeable, immutable casting of votes is just another use case.
 

demo

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Yes.

You can store anything on the blockchain. It's a permissionless ledger. Satoshi stored a newspaper headline in the genesis block. People store marriage vows on the blockchain. Storing an unforgeable, immutable casting of votes is just another use case.
Yes I know that, but this is not the case in https://vote.bitcoin.com/.
They do not store their votes and proposals into the bitcoin blockchain, do they?
 

demo

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Actually, I'm thinking maybe dash needs a completely independent auditor and something like this would fit with that independent position i.e. a neutral voice that can recommend what the various stakeholders want.
After discussing with @Macrochip, I think you idea is nice, as long as the independentt auditor will manage to convince people to cast their votes into the dash blockchain.

Then he could built an aggregator site, in order to present that votes.
 
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