Pre-Proposal Discussion: Dash to fund Tezos

Would you like dash to fund Tezos in order they instantiate dash in their platform?


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    18

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
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Tezos is a self-amendment Nomic Bank that can instantiate any cryptocoin.
So they can instantiate dash.
Would you like dash to fund Tezos, in order they instantiate dash in their platform?
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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<vote history>
Would you like dash to fund Tezos in order they instantiate dash in their platform?
* yes 1 vote(s) 100.0%, no 0 vote(s) 0.0%, other 0 vote(s) 0.0%
</vote history>
 

GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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I thought Tezos uses it's own ledger? - but most definitely, if they had a node incentive programme, I'd be all over it.

It's great watching these alts maturing. Imo, the top REQUIREMENTS for next-level-crypto, that will resign bitcoin to the history books are:
  • code lock down and governance (like Tezos)
  • formal verification (like Synereo / Tezos)
  • anonymity (like Monero / ZClassic etc)
  • node incentive programme (like Dash / NEM etc)
  • token tax i.e. user created tokens that automatically pay a transfer tax e.g. for local government funding
 

GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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I just looked at their website and the first thing I read was a lie. Tezos is the first and only blockchain with decentralised governance.
I wouldn't call that a lie, maybe just a bad choice of words. What they are doing is something I've been saying for years; namely self-awareness. They're applying the pillar of blockchain tech to the code itself. I truly believe in time this will become the norm.. only private and government blockchains will retain their own governance.
 

demo

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I thought Tezos uses it's own ledger? - but most definitely, if they had a node incentive programme, I'd be all over it.
Here is where Arthur Breitman describes how Tezos can become any ledger and any coin.
HTML:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mgaDpuMSc0&feature=youtu.be&t=1930
As long as they can become any coin, I think they should be able to describe in their protocol a node incentive programme too.

Tezos is promising, I think the masternodes should fund the Tezos team to port dash into Tezos. Of course I dont know how much Tezos team wants to be paid, and how much the masternodes are willing to offer for that job. So if the result of this poll is positive and the proposal passes also from the budget, and as long as the masternodes are not allowed to vote with numbers and define the price, then someone should contact tezos team and do the price negotiations.
 
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halso

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Apr 27, 2016
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I wouldn't call that a lie, maybe just a bad choice of words. What they are doing is something I've been saying for years; namely self-awareness. They're applying the pillar of blockchain tech to the code itself. I truly believe in time this will become the norm.. only private and government blockchains will retain their own governance.
"They're applying the pillar of blockchain tech to the codeitself" - what does that mean?
 

demo

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"They're applying the pillar of blockchain tech to the codeitself" - what does that mean?

it means that they vote for the software updates, using blockchain.
 

goto1415

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Nov 18, 2016
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Honestly, I looked at the website and I don't really get what Tezos actually is, someone ELI5. If I don't understand it and it can't be explained clearly in laymen terms then a.) it's too complicated for the average Joe and b.) I can't make an informed decision on if it's needed - which is why I voted other.

If it's governance for Dash then Dash already has that - and so far, I like Dash's governance model.

How exactly would this benefit Dash?
 
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demo

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Honestly, I looked at the website and I don't really get what Tezos actually is, someone ELI5. If I don't understand it and it can't be explained clearly in laymen terms then a.) it's too complicated for the average Joe and b.) I can't make an informed decision on if it's needed - which is why I voted other.

If it's governance for Dash then Dash already has that - and so far, I like Dash's governance model.

How exactly would this benefit Dash?

<vote history>Would you like dash to fund Tezos in order they instantiate dash in their platform? yes 1 vote(s) 33.3% , no 1 vote(s) 33.3%, other 1 vote(s) 33.3% </vote history>
 
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demo

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a.) it's too complicated for the average Joe.
If you care so much about average joe, then why you deal with cryptocurrencies? Average joe cannot understand cryptocurrencies at all. Average joe cannot use internet. Average joe cannot even read or calculate. Those things are too complicated for him.

If it's governance for Dash then Dash already has that - and so far, I like Dash's governance model.
How exactly would this benefit Dash?
You pay a lot of money from the budget in things that are bullshits. You pay for advertising, for videos, for online stores and communities, for feasts. Just pay a small amount of money also for research. It wont hurt you, trust me. :rolleyes:

Tezos' timocracy is more sophisticated that dash's timocracy , and dashers have a lot of things to learn from tezos. Although I hate timocracies (like Tezos or Dash), Tezos contains a lot of innovative features that can be used in Direct Democracy . Thats why I support Tezos efforts.
 
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qwizzie

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Aug 6, 2014
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Dash voted for 2mb blocks
and reached consensus within 24 hours.

I also do not see the clear advantage for Dash here. It looks like Tezos (just like Dash) developed a blockchain supported consensus model, where stakeholders in their coin will have voting power.
Only they chose a pure Proof of Stake model and are supporting Turing complete smart contracts, security-wise that immediately raises red flags for me.

Just tell us in simple words why Dash would benefit from instantiation on their platform ?
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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"They're applying the pillar of blockchain tech to the codeitself" - what does that mean?
When people talk about the wonders of blockchain, they will often tell you it's great for voting and also to verify supply chains... yet so far all blockchain projects do not apply these principles to their own projects... hence you get projects like ethereum that are happy to unconditionally fork to infinity. A blockchain that behaves like gold today might magically behave like silver tomorrow... in which case it's a bit disingenuous to call them blockchain "assets". The way I understand, Tezos hopes to apply some lock down to the code such that a few elite geeks are no longer masters of the universe... thus granting stability to the little people.
 

demo

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and reached consensus within 24 hours.

I also do not see the clear advantage for Dash here. It looks like Tezos (just like Dash) developed a blockchain supported consensus model, where stakeholders in their coin will have voting power.
Only they chose a pure Proof of Stake model and are supporting Turing complete smart contracts, security-wise that immediately raises red flags for me.

Just tell us in simple words why Dash would benefit from instantiation on their platform ?
The consensus model of Tezos reflects also to the code itself. It is not just a budget consensus. The vote has immediate result to the runtime code.

Have also a look at this comment of mine. As far as I understand Tezos, they will try to implement something like this also.
 
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halso

Active Member
Apr 27, 2016
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Imo smart contracts are a sideshow. The real prize on offer is the payments industry and providing a more efficient mechanism for transfering value around the workd.
 

halso

Active Member
Apr 27, 2016
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When people talk about the wonders of blockchain, they will often tell you it's great for voting and also to verify supply chains... yet so far all blockchain projects do not apply these principles to their own projects... hence you get projects like ethereum that are happy to unconditionally fork to infinity. A blockchain that behaves like gold today might magically behave like silver tomorrow... in which case it's a bit disingenuous to call them blockchain "assets". The way I understand, Tezos hopes to apply some lock down to the code such that a few elite geeks are no longer masters of the universe... thus granting stability to the little people.
My understanding is that sentinel will allow MNs to vote on 'objects' which will include variables embedded in the code.

I could be wrong but my interpretation of Evans comments are that MN will be able to vote on sprok variables etc.

Which in essence what u are talking about.
 

demo

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My understanding is that sentinel will allow MNs to vote on 'objects' which will include variables embedded in the code.

I could be wrong but my interpretation of Evans comments are that MN will be able to vote on sprok variables etc.

Which in essence what u are talking about.

Because something is generated by a protocol, this does not mean that it is not a tax. It is a protocol generated tax.

What I mainly argue is that 10% is a hardcoded number, thus a wrong number. This is not correct, it should be a number that fits to the will of the active members of the community. If you have a theory explaining why 10% is the correct number for the community of today, then it is ok. But you have not. So in the case a number has no theory, then this number should vary in order to fit best into the community's current needs (and vary again in order to fit to the future needs of course).

And who is about to decide the change of that number? It is either Evan, or the core team, or the MN owners, or the miners, or the wallet owners. I am in favor of the third or fourth option. I dont think the fifth option (wallet owners) is appropriate, because wallet owners get benefits from the budget (for example they hope the basic income to be written in the budget).

So lets inspect the decision tree to be voted, and how polls are dependant eachother. More dependent polls could occur of course, this is just the simpliest decision tree example about this subject.

Poll:Should 10% budget be a constant number for the present and the future?(yes/no/other)
---Voted yes/other---> end
---Voted no-------------> Poll:Should Evan decide the change of this number? (yes/no/other)
Poll:Should core team decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
Poll:Should MN owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
------ Voted no/other--->end
-------Voted yes -----------> Poll: Should MN owners decide that change by voting with numbers? (yes/no/other)
Poll:Should miners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
Poll:Should wallet owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
And who is allowed to vote into this decision tree? Evan and the core team currently.

But I claim that at least MN owners should also be allowed to vote on it. Not by voting a simple yes or no for a proposed budget percentage, but by voting with a number, a number between 0% and 100%. And then the poll result should be the average of all the number votes.
Poll:Should 10% budget be a constant number for the present and the future?(yes/no/other)
---Voted yes/other---> end
---Voted no-------------> Poll:Should Evan decide the change of this number? (yes/no/other)
Poll:Should core team decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
Poll:Should MN owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
------ Voted no/other--->end
-------Voted yes -----------> Poll: Should MN owners decide that change by voting with numbers? (yes/no/other)
-------Voted yes -----------> Poll:Should MN owners decide that change by voting yes/no on a proposal of the core team? (yes/no/other)
Poll:Should miners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
Poll:Should wallet owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)



So in the decision tree, sentinel stands in the position marked as bold? Interesting...​
 
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halso

Active Member
Apr 27, 2016
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Sydney, Australia
Poll:Should 10% budget be a constant number for the present and the future?(yes/no/other)
---Voted yes/other---> end
---Voted no-------------> Poll:Should Evan decide the change of this number? (yes/no/other)
Poll:Should core team decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
Poll:Should MN owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
------ Voted no/other--->end
-------Voted yes -----------> Poll: Should MN owners decide that change by voting with numbers? (yes/no/other)
-------Voted yes -----------> Poll:Should MN ownes decide the change by voting yes/no on a proposal of the core team? (yes/no/other)
Poll:Should miners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
Poll:Should wallet owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)



So in the decision tree, sentinel stands in the position marked as bold. Interesting...​
as with all systems of governance. Some things are fixed, some are variable. I think most people can live with that.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
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as with all systems of governance. Some things are fixed, some are variable. I think most people can live with that.

Well in that case, and if the 10% fixed number of the budget system cannot change with sentinel, then this is exactly what tezos port may offer (among many other things) to dash.
 

halso

Active Member
Apr 27, 2016
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Sydney, Australia
Well in that case, and if the 10% fixed number of the budget system cannot change with sentinel, then this is exactly what tezos port may offer (among many other things) to dash.
I look forward to hearing more about it. But I'm still not convinced about smart contracts. We still haven't cracked simple payments or currency exchange. Never mind turning on your toaster using your alarm clock.
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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I look forward to hearing more about it. But I'm still not convinced about smart contracts. We still haven't cracked simple payments or currency exchange. Never mind turning on your toaster using your alarm clock.
You will not hear more about it, unless you change your vote to yes and you convince also others to vote yes, in order to be legitimate for someone to contact the tezos team and ask them to port dash into their platfom.

It is that simple. Voting no , and then looking forward to hearing more, this does not make sense.

<vote history>
Would you like dash to fund Tezos in order they instantiate dash in their platform?
yes 1 vote(s) (demo) 33.3%
no 1 vote(s) (halso) 33.3%,
other 1 vote(s) (goto1415) 33.3%
</vote history>
 
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demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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Poll:Should 10% budget be a constant number for the present and the future?(yes/no/other)
---Voted yes/other---> end
---Voted no-------------> Poll:Should Evan decide the change of this number? (yes/no/other)
Poll:Should core team decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
Poll:Should MN owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
------ Voted no/other--->end
-------Voted yes -----------> Poll: Should MN owners decide that change by voting with numbers? (yes/no/other)
-------Voted yes -----------> Poll:Should MN owners decide that change by voting yes/no on a proposal of the core team? (yes/no/other)
Poll:Should miners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
Poll:Should wallet owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)


So in the decision tree, sentinel stands in the position marked as bold? Interesting...​

Below a link where Arthur Breitman describes a similar to the above tree.

HTML:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mgaDpuMSc0&feature=youtu.be&t=2054
This is actually the way the Knowledge Tree (mentioned in the Bible) works and defines the reality of the Universe, but lets not get into metaphysics in this thread.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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My understanding is that sentinel will allow MNs to vote on 'objects' which will include variables embedded in the code.

I could be wrong but my interpretation of Evans comments are that MN will be able to vote on sprok variables etc.

Which in essence what u are talking about.
No, because dash core will continue to "upgrade" with or without the consent of MNs.. AFAIK Tezos is putting control into the hands of it's users... if you want to modify against the will of the users then you'll have to fork... which makes a bloody change because right now crypto devs are the new bankers, constantly moving the goal posts and telling everyone else to fork off.
 

demo

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Nobody was asked about the protocol, the core team decided about it. And all of us had just one choice, either accept it and become members of dash, or reject it and leave dash. This is not correct. Protocols should not give only the accept and the reject choice.
At the begining the core team should put into a vote all initial values of their protocol. And in a second version, all inital decisions of the protocol should also become a subject to vote.
This is can be done by using reflective programming. The protocol should follow the reflective programming principles, and the core team must learn how to write in a reflective way. In computer science, reflection is the ability of a computer program to examine, introspect, and modify its own structure and behavior at runtime.
Below Arthur Breitman explains the tezos contract model.
HTML:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNerM72f0Pk&feature=youtu.be&t=1681
And he gives an example of smaltalk, which is of course a reflective programming language.

On the other hand the language Tezos choosed is OCaml which is not a reflective language. so I am a little bit confused on whether Tezos is planning to support reflective programming or not.
 
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demo

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It seems dashers do not care about a Nomic Bank.

The idea of a Nomic Bank is not a new one, this idea is at least 10 years old. But until now nobody was ever able to implement such a thing. People do not seem to be interested in defining the rules of the bank system, they prefer others to define the rules on their behalf.

Although this obvious disinterest, I am confident that a Nomic Bank will be the last step in the evolution of the Bank system.

<vote history>
Would you like dash to fund Tezos in order they instantiate dash in their platform?
yes 1 vote(s) 25.0%
no 2 vote(s) 50.0%
other 1 vote(s) 25.0%
</vote history>
 
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ec1warc1

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Jul 26, 2016
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Tezos? Another thing I have not heard of before. Do they have a good reputation? How long have they been around? Looking at their website... Interesting logo, I like that. It also says on their website: "Tezos is currently testing and bug fixes to move out of its prototype phase. We are scheduling to release Tezos in Q1 2017." - perhaps we should wait and see if it is successful for others before funding anything.
 
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demo

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Dash was a pioneer cryptocoin in the governance and in the anonymity fields 2 years before. But it is not enough to have good ideas. You have to be able to implement your ideas also, and implement your ideas not good enough but with the best way. A good enough implemention is not enough if you are competing into the internet. Into the internet you have to be the best. Only the best survives, and all the rest (although good enough) they die. Nowdays Dash is not alone into the governance and anonymity fields, there are many rivals and this is dangerous for Dash.

perhaps we should wait and see if it is successful for others before funding anything.
If it is succesful for others, maybe it will be too late for Dash.

It is urgent for Dash to invest in research
in both the governance and the anonymity fields.

Especially in the governance field, it is not enough to copy and paste the ideas and the code of your rivals to become competitive. Even if you manage to copy and paste their ideas and their code, it is impossible to copy and paste the community created because of the good governance.

So to be the best in the governance field, this is the most crucial for survival.
 
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