Pre-Proposal Discussion: Dash to Fiat Payment Processor

DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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What is your planning for dealing with local AU and NZD tax regulations and financial reporting obligations

Apologies if this has been asked earlier.
We will be following all the appropriate regulations. We expect to use a third party who specialises in confirming identities for AML/KYC purposes.
 
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masternode

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From my experience, what they are asking for is not nearly enough funds to get this company started.

AML/KYC compliance in the US alone will cost around $1M to properly set up on a state by state basis. I know because I work closely with the same attorneys that work with Poloniex, GoCoin, and Expresscoin (all of which spent bundles of money on properly registering with the states). While I applaud your intentions, I just don't see how this would get anywhere near getting off the ground for the amount of money you are estimating you need. My advice is to set up a detailed business plan with clear development road map, marketing strategy, and a realistic cost for execution. In addition, you should find co-founders that have solid experience building this type of business. People with proven track records. Just having an entrepreneurial family is not enough.

Some of you feel that the Dash governance should not be funding for profit businesses. I actually think the opposite. We should be funding for profit businesses, but the right ones. And we don't necessarily need it to be an investment, it can be a grant as well. What is way more important than the investment type is that we are EXTREMELY selective of the type of businesses that we put the money into.

Even if we are very selective, 7 or 8 out of 10 of these businesses will still fail. Only a couple will succeed, so the value these 1 or 2 successful companies brings to our ecosystem should justify the aggregate funds that we contribute to all of them. Just because a good idea comes our way doesn't mean we should jump on board to fund it. We have to be much more selective than investing in good ideas to set up a successful program.

Execution is much more important than the idea. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that we very much need a Coinbase type company for the Dash ecosystem. What is more important is that we have the right team to execute. We'll need proof that these are the right founders to build the product evidenced by the fact that they have built something like this before. We'll need a clear development roadmap, mockups, and anything else that will give us confidence in what is being built and allow us to clearly see it's value long before it's even started. We'll need to see that they have the right team execute a well thought out marketing strategy so that it's clear to us why the product will be embraced in the marketplace after it's launched.

We need to treat these funds the way venture capitalists do. They spend 99% of their time saying no (I'm serious, on average they reject 99% of the pitches they see). If we tie up funds in a project that has a high likelyhood of failure (due to anything from a bad idea, to unseasoned management, to no real marketing strategy, to poor product timing, etc..), not only are we not likely to have the product delivered to the ecosystem, but when the right team arrives we may no longer have funds available to fund the project that would've likely succeeded.

In the long run this sort of approach should pay off.

https://twitter.com/chamath/status/701486086409756672

-Ed

P.s. How do I get one of those neat badges that shows that I'm a lifetime foundation member? (or maybe even a Foundation Board member if possible?)
 
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TanteStefana

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From my experience, this is no where near enough funds to get this started.

AML/KYC compliance in the US alone will cost around $1M to properly set up on a state by state basis. I know because I work closely with the same attorneys that work with Poloniex, GoCoin, and Expresscoin (all of which spent bundles of money on properly registering with the states). While I applaud your intentions, I just don't see how this would get anywhere near getting off the ground for the amount of money you are estimating you need. My advice is to set up a detailed business plan with clear development road map, marketing strategy, and a realistic cost for execution. In addition, you should find co-founders that have solid experience building this type of business. People with proven track records. Just having an entrepreneurial family is not enough.

Some of you feel that the Dash governance should not be funding for profit businesses. I actually think the opposite. We should be funding for profit businesses, but the right ones. And we don't necessarily need it to be an investment, it can be a grant as well. What is way more important than the investment type is that we are EXTREMELY selective of the type of businesses that we put the money into.

Even if we are very selective, 7 or 8 out of 10 of these businesses will still fail. Only a couple will succeed, so the value they bring to our ecosystem should justify the funds that we contribute to them. So just because a good idea comes our way doesn't mean we should jump on board to fund it. We have to be much more selective than investing in good ideas to set up a successful program.

Execution is much more important than the idea. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that we very much need a Coinbase type company for the Dash ecosystem. What is more important is that we have the right team to execute. We'll need proof that these are the right founders to build the product evidenced by the fact that they have built something like this before. We'll need a clear development roadmap, mockups, and anything else that will give us confidence in what is being built and allow us to clearly see it's value long before it's even started. We'll need to see that they have the right team execute a well thought out marketing strategy so that it's clear to us why the product will be embraced in the marketplace after it's launched.

We need to treat these funds the way venture capitalists do. They spend 99% of their time saying no. If we tie up funds in a project that has a high likelyhood of failure, not only are we not likely to have the product delivered to the ecosystem, but when the right team arrives we may no longer have funds available to fund the project that would've likely succeeded.

-Ed

P.s. How do I get one of those neat badges that shows that I'm a lifetime foundation member? (or maybe even a Foundation Board member if possible?)
This is why they only plan to work with businesses, and through banking relationships:

We'd love to, but believe the regulatory hurdles are too high for us. The KYC and AML requirements are very high (we'll still be subject to them to an extent, but it is less of an issue when we're only dealing with businesses).
Anyway, to get the badge on your name, I think you have to PM Propulsion?
 

masternode

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Well another thing they don't realize is that Coinbase has monopolized the market in the US because of their relationship with Silicon Valley Bank. This has provided them with the ability to do ACH transfers. Unfortunately no other company has this and no other banks are providing this, which is why there is only one Coinbase type company in the US. Until those gates are opened, it's impossible for anyone else to create a Coinbase type company for BTC, let alone for Dash.

But in my opinion, this is not the right team to execute.
 

DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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Well another thing they don't realize is that Coinbase has monopolized the market in the US
What makes you say that? I'd wager that Bitpay is a larger payment processor than Coinbase. We are only looking to replicate the payment processor aspect of Coinbase, not their market maker and exchange services.
 

TanteStefana

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DartPayments Can you explain a little clearer? A lot of people seem confused exactly what you propose to do and how you propose to do it, and why you feel you can do it. Thanks :)
 

masternode

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What makes you say that? I'd wager that Bitpay is a larger payment processor than Coinbase. We are only looking to replicate the payment processor aspect of Coinbase, not their market maker and exchange services.
Ok I misunderstood what your intention was. However, even if you are going after merchant processing I think the amount of funds that you are trying to launch with will not be close to enough to start the type of business that you are proposing. Keep in mind Bitpay's seed round of funding was over $500k.

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/bitpay#/entity

Maybe I missed it, but where can I learn about you and your team's previous work experience? Have you had experience in the past working with Fintech or payment processing?

-Ed
 

DartPayments

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Ok I misunderstood what your intention was. However, even if you are going after merchant processing I think the amount of funds that you are trying to launch with will not be close to enough to start the type of business that you are proposing. Keep in mind Bitpay's seed round of funding was over $500k.

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/bitpay#/entity
Here is an article about that seed funding you are referring to.

When they received that $500k they had already been established for almost 2 years (founded May 2011, received $500k January 2013).

Maybe I missed it, but where can I learn about you and your team's previous work experience? Have you had experience in the past working with Fintech or payment processing?
We're new to operating businesses in this space, but we have substantial knowledge (involved with cryptocurrienceis since late 2013) of the challenges involved.

To prove that we're not all talk we built dashstickers.xyz which is a working prototype. You can got there now and purchase real Dash stickers that will be mailed to you.

It is highly likely that we will be included in the next budget cycle, and are looking forward to sharing our progress with the community over the coming months.
 

DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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DartPayments Can you explain a little clearer? A lot of people seem confused exactly what you propose to do and how you propose to do it, and why you feel you can do it. Thanks :)
Essentially we propose to build a Dash to Fiat payment processor similar to Bitpay. We hope to launch an alpha in 2 - 3 months containing the core functionality (integration via API, Dash to Fiat (likely only USD at first), deposits to merchant bank accounts), and expand the feature set from there to include more features (e.g. shopping cart plugins, option to only convert percentage to fiat, more supported currencies).
 

masternode

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Yea. You've basically answered none of my important questions. I could hire an indian programer off of UpWork to build me dashstickers.xyz. Who on your team has a history with Fintech or payment processing? If the answer is no one, then I'm going to rally that this not get funded.

These are not the kind of projects we should be investing in.
 

tungfa

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Yea. You've basically answered none of my important questions. I could hire an indian programer off of UpWork to build me dashstickers.xyz. Who on your team has a history with Fintech or payment processing? If the answer is no one, then I'm going to rally that this not get funded.

These are not the kind of projects we should be investing in.
https://www.dashwhale.org/p/payment-processor
 

TanteStefana

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We're in desperate need for someone to do this, and these guys are ready to try. I don't see it being all that complex, and they have a plan of attack and willingness to do this. I don't understand where all the no votes have suddenly come from, but I beg you to reconsider. They're not turning into a Dash-fiat exchange but rather a payment processor so that businesses can accept Dash and receive cash in their bank accounts. The plan is to create a solution where Dash Payments go directly to the business' account, get exchanged via this service - using an established exchange - , immediately for fiat and then deposited into the Business's bank account. It's not going to have any KYC issues. A service like this is necessary, Evan even noted how important this is for us to get settled ASAP.

"One of the other great outcomes from our experience was a new sense of urgency to improve the fiat to Dash gateways within the ecosystem and build out our existing platform so that everyone can come over now and begin using it. Bitcoin simply can’t keep up with user adoption from this point forward and that leaves users two choices: either leave the decentralized ecosystem and use fiat, or start working with alternative projects like Dash."

So please reconsider your votes everyone, because we need someone willing to get on this ASAP. Some of the most trusted community members have vetted that these people have been with dash since the beginning (they're not comfortable in giving away their avatar names, because they want to keep comments said in the past anonymous) but they've given us their real names here, and like I said, have been verified as long term members of this community.

Evan even voted the liquidity provider project down so that there would be enough funds for this project. I think Evan doesn't want to endorse things anymore, and wants us to make the decisions, but I honestly wish he'd step up and give us guidance because a lot of people 1. don't have the vision or 2. are afraid of risk. This is a good risk.

Please vote yes on this one. Thanks.
 

DartPayments

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Thanks for you support Tante. Agree with everything you posted.

I don't understand where all the no votes have suddenly come from, but I beg you to reconsider.
There seem to be a few people out there with control of several hundred masternodes, which gives them a lot of power over proposals that don't have massive support (Budget System V2 can fix this with vote locking) like salary for the core team. A few days ago we received approximately 350 'yes' votes around the same time liquidity providers received a similar number and was voted out. Someone else has now come along and given our proposal 500 or so 'no' votes.

Hopefully the that person will reverse their decision, or other masternode operators will push us over (only need about 50 more 'yes' votes).
 

masternode

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Put together a seasoned team with experience and we may reconsider.

What we expect is not unreasonable.
 

DartPayments

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Put together a seasoned team with experience and we may reconsider.

What we expect is not unreasonable.
We can certainly understand the desire to have the best most experienced people working on Dash.

So far though nobody else has put there hands up to work on this essential project. We believe that we have made a good offer to the Dash community, and would appreciate any support.

We can play credentialism all day, but that's not going to get Dash very far.
 

masternode

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We can certainly understand the desire to have the best most experienced people working on Dash.

So far though nobody else has put there hands up to work on this essential project. We believe that we have made a good offer to the Dash community, and would appreciate any support.

We can play credentialism all day, but that's not going to get Dash very far.
Without a seasoned team this is simply a waste of money.
 

InTheWoods

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Without a seasoned team this is simply a waste of money.
Even with a seasoned team in place I'm skeptical about having a dedicated payment processor for a coin with the market cap of Dash. Why would a merchant want to implement it and not use payment processors offering a multitude of coins, hitting 5 or 50 birds with one stone?

It would be much cheaper and more effective to just convince current established payment processors like GoCoin to just accept Dash. Coinpayments already does.

Even if this project doesn't receive funding DartPayments could forge ahead and present a viable project at a later stage, after they take it off the ground, if they believe strongly enough in their idea that is.
 
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masternode

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Dartpayments, you've shown nothing professional about your project in any way. You've made no effort to put together a seasoned team. You've done nothing to show what you want to build or how you plan to execute. You are not the right people to pull off this project, so yes it's simply going to be wasted money.

Below is an example of the minimum you should have when requesting funds to build something. (taken from a project we are putting together behind the scenes, with an experienced team to accompany it).

If you showed up with a document like this, mock ups, and a plan that made sense, I would be first in line to try and get you funds. Instead you are just avoiding any real responsibility and hoping you can get some free funds with little to no effort.

Note: If anyone has voted Yes for this proposal you should reconsider. Dartpayments proposal represents exactly the kind of proposals we don't want to see or fund, and as such deserves a NO vote. Our votes matter. Each time you vote yes to one of these half efforted plans you encourage others to do the same. This will lead to a drain on funds.

------------------------------------------------

DashBoard Connect Specification

Overview:

Craiglist type mobile bulletin board for cryptocurrencies. Find Dash, BTC and LTC sellers, quickly connecting via text messages to transact locally.

Needs:

iOS, Android, API


Mobile

Register / Login Flow
  • email / password not required will go immediately to onboarding
  • all the records are stored based on the device token that’s generated locally
  • local device token is a layer of security to prevent people finding records of random phone numbers
  • register when you sell, not when buying Note: (when buying you’ll need to input a name)
  • register when star rating
Local Data
  • get market prices
  • dash
  • bitcoin
  • litecoin
Onboarding
  • ask for geolocation
  • messaging to say it’s safe and nobody will know where you are (as a buyer)
  • as a seller they would only know general location, not exact location (messaging)
  • they say yes, it’s store locally and include in discover requests
  • if they reject it the app is unusable so we need messaging to show how to turn on geolocation

Discover
  • show multiple coins in tab view
  • clicking on one loads only coins that are for sale for that coin
  • coin types
    • dash
    • bitcoin
    • litecoin
    • note: * no other coins are supported
  • list of sellers
    • prices (range min - max amount to sell volume) willing to sell $500 - $1000
    • phone number
    • distance
    • availability
    • name
    • tapping on one brings you to buy text
    • star rating
  • has a button to sell
    • leads to sell form
Seller Star Rating

  • ask the user how their interaction was with the seller after they have tried to text them
  • uses a star rating widget
  • sends data to star rating endpoint
  • user must “login” to create a star rating otherwise people will game it

My Sell Orders
  • Shows a list of all my sell orders
    • coin type
    • price
  • Can edit a sell order
    • allows deletion from edit screen
    • basically the same fields as creation
Sell Form (create)
  • accessed from the discover “click to sell”
  • should register if has not registered
  • grabbed from the phone
  • add coin they are selling
  • seller name (auto filled from user object but changeable for convenience)
  • min - max willing to sell (volume: willing to sell $500 - $1000)
  • price
  • percentage over / und
  • don’t need to auto hide when over or under

Sell Form (edit)
  • can change all fields
Sell Form (delete)
  • can completely remove a sell order
Sell Form (hide)
  • can temporarily hide coin sell orders
Settings
  • discoverable (toggle on off)
  • shows all sell orders
  • FAQ (link to web page) Eddie will handle this
Analytics
  • open app
  • session duration
  • sell form session length
  • cancel form
  • tapped on coin from discover
    • coin type
    • location
  • put in buy order
    • buy order size
    • seller and buyer’s location
  • place sell order
    • coin type
    • location
Geolocation
  • on app open updates geolocation in the background, posts to server
  • stores geolocation locally (for later requests)
  • constantly updates geolocation while using the app
API

Register / Login

  • saves user based on token
  • stores user name (required)
  • stores phone number (required)
  • stores location (required)
Local Data
  • market prices
  • dash
  • bitcoin
  • litecoin
Onboarding
  • store geolocation
  • continuously store geolocation
Discover
  • list of sell orders all sell orders from users based on geolocation
  • show only sellers for given coin type
  • dash
  • bitcoin
  • litecoin
Seller Star Ratings
  • store ratings based on 1 - 5
  • stores a rating averages rating for each seller
  • stores the rating for that buyer for that seller so they can’t game it
My Sell Orders
  • Shows a list of all my sell orders
    • coin type
    • price
  • Can edit a sell order
    • allows deletion from edit screen
    • basically the same fields as creation
Sell Order (create)
  • stores a sell order
  • user object
  • coin type
  • sell price
  • minimum sell price (dollars)
  • maximum sell price (dollars)
Sell Order (edit / update)
  • stores a sell order
  • user object
  • coin type
  • sell price
  • minimum sell price (dollars)
  • maximum sell price (dollars)
Sell Order (delete)

Settings
  • Turn off discovery
  • View your own sell orders
Design

Discover
  • list of sell orders
  • splash screen
  • sell order form
  • update profile form
  • design feedback
Onboarding
  • ask user nicely to get their location and address security concerns
App Store Screenshots / Design
  • 5 screen shots
  • iPhone 5 and iPhone 6
Splash Screen
  • provide cross device assets
  • branding help / assets from Dash Foundation
Misc
  • Project setup
  • Testflight builds
  • Apple Store assets (screenshots)
  • Gathering / creating App Store data
  • Testing
 
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PantsOnFire

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Mar 20, 2015
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I'm simply just gonna call BS on this one, so my vote is no.

You want to make a dedicated dash crypto payment system for 1200 dash = $6.000

The equivalent of a coinbase / bitpay. Not going to happen for those funds.

Just think about it. Not realistic. Either a scam in the making or delusional entrepreneurial naivety (if the latter, then I applaud your spirit).

I don't believe any retailer would lock themselves into using a payment system that only handles dash. As InTheWoods mentions, they'll be using systems that can handle many different currencies.

Maybe you're thinking. F.U. guys, then we'll just do it without masternode funding. Awesome. Do that. Prove us wrong. Go execute and I'm sure if you make something viable, that the community will back you up then.
 

DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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Hi masternode,

I think you are a bit confused about what we are trying to build. We are trying to build something that would be almost functionally identical to the Coinbase, Bitpay and Stripe(Bitcoin element) API’s but for dash. It would let merchants(Ecommerce stores and the like) easily integrate Dash into there site, whether this is viera a static payment button or a custom API integration.


Many of the things that you pointed out wanting to see at this stage are simply not suited for a project like this at the funding stage. A good example of this would be “mock ups” considering that the main focus of this project is a JSON API spending money on mock ups of a website would be a bit of a waste at this stage.


I hope this addresses some of your concerns and feel free to ask any more questions you may have about Dart.
 

masternode

New Member
Mar 9, 2015
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Hi masternode,

I think you are a bit confused about what we are trying to build. We are trying to build something that would be almost functionally identical to the Coinbase, Bitpay and Stripe(Bitcoin element) API’s but for dash. It would let merchants(Ecommerce stores and the like) easily integrate Dash into there site, whether this is viera a static payment button or a custom API integration.


Many of the things that you pointed out wanting to see at this stage are simply not suited for a project like this at the funding stage. A good example of this would be “mock ups” considering that the main focus of this project is a JSON API spending money on mock ups of a website would be a bit of a waste at this stage.


I hope this addresses some of your concerns and feel free to ask any more questions you may have about Dart.
Jesus. My point is you provided nothing. Not to mention how are we to know Merchants would even find what you build useful?

You've only provided this laughable site.

http://www.dashstickers.xyz/
 

DartPayments

Member
Feb 17, 2016
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Jesus. My point is you provided nothing. Not to mention how are we to know Merchants would even find what you build useful?

You've only provided this laughable site.

http://www.dashstickers.xyz/
We believe that what we are building aligns with the goals of Dash business development, and that this is clearly shown in the quote from Daniel Diaz (head of Dash business development).
 

masternode

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Mar 9, 2015
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We believe that what we are building aligns with the goals of Dash business development, and that this is clearly shown in the quote from Daniel Diaz (head of Dash business development).
You may be aligned but you are not positioned to succeed. Name dropping Daniel or whomever you want won't make you or your project look any more credible. Fyi, I'm Edward Moncada one of the founding board members of the Dash foundation. My partners and I review and invest in projects like these for a living. This is not the kind of investment that is positioned to succeed. My advice is to step down, reconsider your team, and take the time to draft up a real proposal.

You're in way over your head on this. This project is a definite NO. We should not be funding people who don't make at least a reasonable effort to put something together that is likely to succeed. This group has not. Everyone should be prudently voting No on this project.
 

TanteStefana

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Even with a seasoned team in place I'm skeptical about having a dedicated payment processor for a coin with the market cap of Dash. Why would a merchant want to implement it and not use payment processors offering a multitude of coins, hitting 5 or 50 birds with one stone?

It would be much cheaper and more effective to just convince current established payment processors like GoCoin to just accept Dash. Coinpayments already does.

Even if this project doesn't receive funding DartPayments could forge ahead and present a viable project at a later stage, after they take it off the ground, if they believe strongly enough in their idea that is.
Because they don't exist. There are only payment processors for merchants (accept a coin, and cash is deposited into their account seamlessly) for Bitcoin.
 
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Sapereaude

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Apr 30, 2014
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Yes we need Dash to Fiat payment processor, but after reading 6 pages of posts it seems the DartPayments plan is... that they want want to build Dash to Fiat payment processor.

Want to hear actual details before I would vote yes, to quote from dashwhale.

"This proposal has in no way shown what I feel is the minimum of what we expect from any business we are considering funding. There is no seasoned management, no documentation as to what they plan to build or how they will execute, and have a very unrealistic idea as to what it will take to get this project off the ground. Given that, I highly advise all masternodes to vote NO on this project."
 
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qwizzie

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Aug 6, 2014
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http://forklog.net/lead-developer-of-dash-believes-users-will-have-to-seek-a-bitcoin-alternative/

Another important implication of the meeting, Duffield believes, is realization of importance and necessity of creating fiat gateways for Dash. Availability of specific gateways will facilitate usage of the cryptocurrency for people, he supposes.
I'm not telling anyone how to vote as i believe thats everyone's personal responsebility but i do want to emphasize this is an important topic and voting on this proposal is important.

There is still some four weeks to go before voting time expires, so pls vote in that time frame.
 
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TheDashGuy

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Dec 16, 2015
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You may be aligned but you are not positioned to succeed. Name dropping Daniel or whomever you want won't make you or your project look any more credible. Fyi, I'm Edward Moncada one of the founding board members of the Dash foundation. My partners and I review and invest in projects like these for a living. This is not the kind of investment that is positioned to succeed. My advice is to step down, reconsider your team, and take the time to draft up a real proposal.

You're in way over your head on this. This project is a definite NO. We should not be funding people who don't make at least a reasonable effort to put something together that is likely to succeed. This group has not. Everyone should be prudently voting No on this project.
Where the hell were you at a when we were throwing 6k a month at Terpin? This is pocket change, for useful stuff, compared to our "PR" project.