Pre-Proposal Discussion: Dash to Fiat Payment Processor

BolehVPN

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Nov 24, 2014
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As much as I like this project and really want it to happen, how is anything going to be enforced if they remain anonymous? Too big a risk unless I am missing something. What's stopping them from taking the money and not developing? This also makes the loan idea dead in the water.

If they make themselves known to the core Dev team then I might be OK with this but as long as they are totally anonymous, giving or loaning money upfront to anonymous people is a big no no. I would have thought that if they are converting into fiat, a banking relationship is required in any case and therefore they can't be totally anonymous.

The money they are asking for isn't a lot but yeah.
 
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Bridgewater

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Dec 14, 2014
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I agree with BolehVPN

I would vote NO to this with my masternodes.

Dash shouldn't be funding businesses which operate independently. As of yet, there is no management mechanism built in to oversee "budget operations," so Dash would simply have to trust a for-profit startup to start paying the network back whenever it becomes profitable.

How do you prove the company is operating as promised? To actually accomplish something like this, Dash will have to fund multiple PMs to travel the world and audit these companies and keep them in check? And even then, what's to stop the companies from bribing the auditors and continually scamming the network?

This type of project just seems a bit unrealistic, especially on a measly 10% of the block reward.
The funding should be for "sunk cost" improvements to the network which would otherwise not get accomplished through altruistic donations. Dash is not in the business of funding and managing startups. It is simply not possible without loads more infrastructure and planning, etc, and even then, it does not seem appropriate, IMO.
 

raganius

cryptoPag.com
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
I agree with Bridgewater and really liked both the ideas from Solarminer and Dunedoo

This is an example of for-profit enterprise, and should not be subsidised by the network, creating a possible unfair advantage against eventual competitor projects.

The better solution would be the putting out of a call for investors from the Dash community, as Dunedoo suggested. I am sure many investors would be interested, granted that the proposers are trustworthy (I would definitely want to participate).

Second viable solution, from my point of view, is the loan option.
 

DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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As much as I like this project and really want it to happen, how is anything going to be enforced if they remain anonymous?
We have no intention of hiding under a cloak of anonymity. Feel free to ask any questions about us, we'll be happy to answer most. I have other accounts on DashTalk, BitcoinTalk, and Reddit, and am happy yo verify with a trusted community member (views I have expressed with these accounts were made assuming ongoing privacy, so I won't post them publicly. We have been involved with Dash since approximately February 2014 (1 month after launch).

After a short while we would be looking to form a limited liability company. This would be initially registered in New Zealand where company records containing director and shareholder information is freely available.
 
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DartPayments

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I agree with BolehVPN
Dash shouldn't be funding businesses which operate independently. As of yet, there is no management mechanism built in to oversee "budget operations," so Dash would simply have to trust a for-profit startup to start paying the network back whenever it becomes profitable.
We would hope that by building a high quality Dash to fiat payment processor that we would increase the utility of Dash, and therefore raise the price benefiting all holders.

To an extent yes there is an amount of trust that needs to be placed in us, and we understand why people may be apprehensive about that. We will be as transparent as possible and post regular development updates.

How do you prove the company is operating as promised? To actually accomplish something like this, Dash will have to fund multiple PMs to travel the world and audit these companies and keep them in check? And even then, what's to stop the companies from bribing the auditors and continually scamming the network?
We're not asking for ongoing funding, just an initial boost over a 3 month period in exchange for equity to the Dash Foundation (or the network if it is technologically and legally feasible). The real proof that we are doing what we are committing to doing is when there is a usable product (check out our working demo dartpayments 'dotty' com).
 
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DartPayments

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I agree with Bridgewater and really liked both the ideas from Solarminer and Dunedoo

This is an example of for-profit enterprise, and should not be subsidised by the network, creating a possible unfair advantage against eventual competitor projects.
We're not asking for a subsidy as such, but rather an investment. Dash will get two things in return:

  1. Equity to the Dash Foundation (or network if financially and legally feasible)
  2. A first class payment processor which will increase the utility of Dash and therefore increase the price

The better solution would be the putting out of a call for investors from the Dash community, as Dunedoo suggested. I am sure many investors would be interested, granted that the proposers are trustworthy (I would definitely want to participate).
Anyone interested in investing money or offering their skills is encouraged to contact us.
 
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alex-ru

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Jul 14, 2014
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If the development is financed from the Dash's budget - I would like to see as a result not a for-profit 3-rd party company, but an open source code (which can be used by anyone who want to use it, thereby enhancing the entire ecosystem of Dash, in a competitive environment.

As it is with Lamassu, Dash'n'Vend, Wifi-Portal.
 

DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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If the development is financed from the Dash's budget - I would like to see as a result not a for-profit 3-rd party company, but an open source code (which can be used by anyone who want to use it, thereby enhancing the entire ecosystem of Dash, in a competitive environment
I personally don't believe that something like this could be built in a open source manner. The main hurdles are actually related to regulatory and banking relationships, rather than on the technical side.

While we agree that there are projects work best in open source environment there are also others which are better run as for-profit businesses.
 
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alex-ru

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I personally don't believe that something like this could be built in a open source manner. The main hurdles are actually related to regulatory and banking relationships, rather than on the technical side.

While we agree that there are projects work best in open source environment there are also others which are better run as for-profit businesses.
I see..

Well... as we see here:
https://dashtalk.org/threads/january-2016-dash-core-team-monthly-report.8041/

_____
Business Development
Preliminary work on project to improve DASH access via FIAT, proposal to be presented early Q2.
_____

Maybe you'd better contact with Daniel Diaz to coordinate your efforts with Dash Team...
 

DartPayments

Member
Feb 17, 2016
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I see..
_____
Business Development
Preliminary work on project to improve DASH access via FIAT, proposal to be presented early Q2.
_____

Maybe you'd better contact with Daniel Diaz to coordinate your efforts with Dash Team...
Interesting. Hadn't seen that. We'll probably contact Daniel for comment on our proposal.

Sounds more a fiat to Dash exchange (Very important too. People need to obtain Dash before the can spend it with Dart :)).
 
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BolehVPN

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Nov 24, 2014
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We have no intention of hiding under a cloak of anonymity. Feel free to ask any questions about us, we'll be happy to answer most. I have other accounts on DashTalk, BitcoinTalk, and Reddit, and am happy yo verify with a trusted community member (views I have expressed with these accounts were made assuming ongoing privacy, so I won't post them publicly. We have been involved with Dash since approximately February 2014 (1 month after launch).

After a short while we would be looking to form a limited liability company. This would be initially registered in New Zealand where company records containing director and shareholder information is freely available.
If you are going to have director and shareholder information available anyway, any reason why you aren't comfortable in disclosing it now? Would you be disclosing it once you put the proposal up?

I'm not too keen on online profiles. It's just one online profile verifying another which in legal terms is pointless. The fact that you have 'other accounts' on DashTalk makes me wonder more.

I do not doubt your good intentions, just concerned on what reasons you may have in not disclosing your real identity. I run a VPN company, that is all about privacy but I make myself known and information on me is publicly available as people need to know who to look for if shit hits the fan. And this is just with a simple VPN service. As for getting funding, I think that standard goes a lot higher.
 

Bridgewater

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Dec 14, 2014
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We would hope that by building a high quality Dash to fiat payment processor that we would increase the utility of Dash, and therefore raise the price benefiting all holders.
We're not asking for ongoing funding, just an initial boost over a 3 month period in exchange for equity to the Dash Foundation (or the network if it is technologically and legally feasible).
My objection is not really about the quantity or duration of funds requested, but rather to what I consider a misuse of the budget system.

You have stated 1) that you believe in the long-term success of Dash, and 2) that your business plan is profitable.

I agree that the addition of a fiat gateway to the ecosystem will have the effect of jump-starting #1, and in-turn #2 (and any other Dash businesses) in a fortuitous cycle.

Given thes lucrative possibilities, it does not make sense that a Dash startup would ask the network to provide seed money rather than simply investing its own money or acquiring some investors.

While we agree that there are projects work best in open source environment there are also others which are better run as for-profit businesses.
And for-profit businesses work best in a private environment, not public.
 
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DartPayments

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If you are going to have director and shareholder information available anyway, any reason why you aren't comfortable in disclosing it now? Would you be disclosing it once you put the proposal up?
A bit of an overview for you:

Henry McKay - Commerce student at Monash University in Melbourne Australia. Currently working in Chritchurch, New Zealand over the summer. Finance lead for rloop.

Angus McKay - Completed a depomia of web development recently. Currerntly job hunting and working on various personal projects (check out dartpayments 'dotty' com).

Our family is very entrepreneurial family, so we know a thing or two about running a business (especially about dealing with difficult banks and regulators).

You won't find much about us online though. We tend to keep a fairly low profile.

I'm not too keen on online profiles. It's just one online profile verifying another which in legal terms is pointless. The fact that you have 'other accounts' on DashTalk makes me wonder more.
Verifying my other accounts with someone trusted in the community is simply a way of proving my reputation/character. Those accounts have comments going back several years which I made in the knowledge that they would not be connected back to my real life identity. My main concern would be that when we come to dealing with regulatory issues and banking relationships those organisations may find issue with some of the views I have previously expressed. The DartPayments account is intended to represent the views of us as a business/organisation, not personal views.
 
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DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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My objection is not really about the quantity or duration of funds requested, but rather to what I consider a misuse of the budget system.

You have stated 1) that you believe in the long-term success of Dash, and 2) that your business plan is profitable.

I agree that the addition of a fiat gateway to the ecosystem will have the effect of jump-starting #1, and in-turn #2 (and any other Dash businesses) in a fortuitous cycle.

Given thes lucrative possibilities, it does not make sense that a Dash startup would ask the network to provide seed money rather than simply investing its own money or acquiring some investors.
We will be investing some of our own funds as well (and have already spent a bit in building a demo).

Our logic in deciding to produce a budget proposal is that if we have to seek an investor from somewhere why not from the network itself? This would be the first time a business has been funded straight from the blockchain. This also serves to align our interests with those of the network.


And for-profit businesses work best in a private environment, not public.
We won't be disclosing day to day operations (most charities don't even do so), but we will be keeping everyone up to date on our development progress.
 
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TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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This is an interesting proposal, but I'm not sure I like the idea of the DASH network investing in a company instead of paying for goods and services. A payback of 5% from the first 3 months (and almost no companies are profitable after 3 months), with no legally binding obligation to deliver that return? Is this a loan or an investment? I think you might be better suited trying to find individuals to invest in your company rather than the Dash network itself.
 
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DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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A payback of 5% from the first 3 months (and almost no companies are profitable after 3 months), with no legally binding obligation to deliver that return? Is this a loan or an investment?
An investment. For every month of funding 5% of the equity will go to the Dash Foundation (or network if technically and legally possible), for a total of 15% equity over the 3 months. The Dash Foundation (or network) would receive dividends once we are profitable, and would be free to sell their stake at any time.

The nature of a limited liability company is that there is no obligation to deliver a set return to ordinary shareholders (preferential shareholders may receive set amounts). However the directors and management of a company must ensure that they operate in the best interests of the shareholders.
 
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TheDashGuy

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Dec 16, 2015
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a little off topic but why not just build a sort of bitpay system instead? That way you could get merchants signed up prior to funding etc and it might go alot further than straight up fiat-dash exchange. You could easily branch off into apps/stores/other payment processors and just be the "Dash" gateway.

You could just promise to buy the Dash from the vendors at XXX amount and pay them in whatever method they like and take away the risk for merchants, seems to be a great market. Much needed too.
 
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DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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a little off topic but why not just build a sort of bitpay system instead? That way you could get merchants signed up prior to funding etc and it might go alot further than straight up fiat-dash exchange. You could easily branch off into apps/stores/other payment processors and just be the "Dash" gateway.

You could just promise to buy the Dash from the vendors at XXX amount and pay them in whatever method they like and take away the risk for merchants, seems to be a great market. Much needed too.

That's what we're building, BitPay for Dash.

Try the demo at dashstickers 'dotty' xzy
 
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DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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Have you tried cointree? AU$ fiat to btc it's pretty neat. Get something similar for Dash and I'm into big time
We'd love to, but believe the regulatory hurdles are too high for us. The KYC and AML requirements are very high (we'll still be subject to them to an extent, but it is less of an issue when we're only dealing with businesses).
 
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TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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You may make it easy for merchants to integrate your solution, but is there a plan to actively seek out merchants or will they actually feel an incentive to do this? Are there any online merchants in particular that have already expressed interest or would be likely candidates for integration?

If successful, this project could be yet another demonstration of how DASH's blockchain governance is truly groundbreaking.

Still not convinced either way, would like to hear more opinions.
 
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DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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You may make it easy for merchants to integrate your solution, but is there a plan to actively seek out merchants or will they actually feel an incentive to do this? Are there any online merchants in particular that have already expressed interest or would be likely candidates for integration?
Initially we'd look to find a few merchants in the Dash community who are interested is beta testing our service. After that we would move to gaining publicity in general crypto news, and targeting merchants who currently accept Bitcoin. After we gain some traction there we would move to targeting businesses new to crypto.

If successful, this project could be yet another demonstration of how DASH's blockchain governance is truly groundbreaking.
The thought had occurred to us :D
 
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yidakee

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Hi DartPayments,

I applaud the effort, though I feel I must expose my qualms about it. First of all, this is indeed extremely interesting and highly beneficial for Dash, but in the same way as the second Dash 'n Drink proposal, it is a grey area (for me at least). The DGbB system is directly targeted at Dash core development. Obviously this project is highly beneficial for all involved with Dash and it's ecosystem, but it is not directly targeted at the Dash project development.

I would have no problem voting yes to reimburse the brilliant work Dash 'n Drink did (post factum) as it definitely had an impact, but absolutely against their second go at deployment (pre-factom).

In any case, both proposers were long established community members with a strong reputation. If you were to completely DOX yourselves and verify your identity, I would look at this proposal in an entirely different way. Or, post-factum, vote according to results. But you neither show who your are, nor you are known to this community, so it is natural that opposing voices to rise.

This sort of endeavour you are trying to explore is of extreme high risk of failure, due to the murky waters crypto's swim in. But it could be the exact opposite! Such type of initiatives are of high interest to capital/venture/angel investors. They love it, they try it all, as 1/100 makes up for the other 99. All you really need is a good plan and a fantastic pitch.

Please don't take this personally, this is obviously just my opinion, and I have absolutely nothing against the idea itself, only the request for the funds.

In the end, it is the Masternode owners who have the last say

.
 

DartPayments

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Feb 17, 2016
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In any case, both proposers were long established community members with a strong reputation. If you were to completely DOX yourselves and verify your identity, I would look at this proposal in an entirely different way. Or, post-factum, vote according to results. But you neither show who your are, nor you are known to this community, so it is natural that opposing voices to rise.
I think I mostly answered this above (quoted below), but feel free to ask more questions.

A bit of an overview for you:

Henry McKay - Commerce student at Monash University in Melbourne Australia. Currently working in Chritchurch, New Zealand over the summer. Finance lead for rloop.

Angus McKay - Completed a depomia of web development recently. Currerntly job hunting and working on various personal projects (check out dartpayments 'dotty' com).

Our family is very entrepreneurial family, so we know a thing or two about running a business (especially about dealing with difficult banks and regulators).

You won't find much about us online though. We tend to keep a fairly low profile.

Verifying my other accounts with someone trusted in the community is simply a way of proving my reputation/character. Those accounts have comments going back several years which I made in the knowledge that they would not be connected back to my real life identity. My main concern would be that when we come to dealing with regulatory issues and banking relationships those organisations may find issue with some of the views I have previously expressed. The DartPayments account is intended to represent the views of us as a business/organisation, not personal views.
This sort of endeavour you are trying to explore is of extreme high risk of failure, due to the murky waters crypto's swim in. But it could be the exact opposite! Such type of initiatives are of high interest to capital/venture/angel investors. They love it, they try it all, as 1/100 makes up for the other 99. All you really need is a good plan and a fantastic pitch.
Failure is certainly a possible outcome. One we hope not to encounter, but one which we are not immune from.
 
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yidakee

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I think I mostly answered this above (quoted below), but feel free to ask more questions.
I find it perfectly ok to keep an internet persona completely anonymous so one can be free to express his/her views without fear of persecution, or having issues / problems years after posting. I am 100% sympathetic about that. I'm not asking you to reveal your past. We have a few members on our team who are anonymous exactly because their governments could very well hassle them.

But one thing is to have a track record with any given nickname, the other is to appear out of the blue and propose a budget. See here, I'm not critiquing, this is actually to help your efforts, or anyone else's for that matter. So it is in that sense that it makes perfect sense to DOX and verify you identity for the sake of transparency. Not to validade an account/username, but real identity. That is a great barometer on how serious you are about handling other people's money.

Failure is certainly a possible outcome. One we hope not to encounter, but one which we are not immune from.
"Defeat is not the worst of failures. Not to have tried is the true failure." George Edward Woodberry

.
 
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BolehVPN

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Nov 24, 2014
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A bit of an overview for you:

Henry McKay - Commerce student at Monash University in Melbourne Australia. Currently working in Chritchurch, New Zealand over the summer. Finance lead for rloop.

Angus McKay - Completed a depomia of web development recently. Currerntly job hunting and working on various personal projects (check out dartpayments 'dotty' com).

Our family is very entrepreneurial family, so we know a thing or two about running a business (especially about dealing with difficult banks and regulators).

You won't find much about us online though. We tend to keep a fairly low profile.



Verifying my other accounts with someone trusted in the community is simply a way of proving my reputation/character. Those accounts have comments going back several years which I made in the knowledge that they would not be connected back to my real life identity. My main concern would be that when we come to dealing with regulatory issues and banking relationships those organisations may find issue with some of the views I have previously expressed. The DartPayments account is intended to represent the views of us as a business/organisation, not personal views.
Thanks for this. More minded to vote positively.

What is rloop?
http://rloop.org/#!/team

Btw: https://dartpayments.com/
It's 'something' not 'somthing' :D sorry anal.
 
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