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Dash Core Team Accountability and Lack of Communication

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stealth923, Dec 29, 2016.

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  1. Stealth923

    Stealth923 Well-known Member
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    This is not to troll but with the hope to build a better framework and community. I believe in Dash and its vision and hold a large number of Masternodes and I am concerned with projects with no communication or updates except for ambiguous comments or excuses:

    1) Legal work Part I - 1492 Dash - (Masternode rewards etc for IRS) https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-legal-sept.10457/
    2) Legal work Part II - 1728 Dash - https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-legal-part-ii-oct.10786/
    3) ATM Master Compliance Program Phase 1 - 748 Dash - https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dash-atm-master-compliance-program-phase-i.10312/
    4) Marketing - Brand & Design - 350 Dash - https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-marketing-brand-design.11279/
    5) Lamassu epic failure of a project - 7327 Dash - Multiple threads on forums, slack etc asking for updates and silence for months and months!
    6) Proton Mail Integration - countless developer hours with many meetings and travel and nothing? Saying "we did our part" and its up to them it not good enough in my books. How are we being proactive etc.
    7) Mycelium Integration - ditto as above?

    There is probably more too but dont have the time to do a full audit. Thats 11645++ Dash gone into thin air?? anyone? @kot @babygiraffe @eduffield

    No worries, lets just open a new office and everyone will forget about it all. Let it be said again - I do not care if projects fail, communicate and document as to why, how it can be done better in future and how the Masternode community can vote smarter.

    The lack of communication, care and behaviour of the core team is the major concern about how its being run. Trust and transparency is key - lose it once and its very hard to get back!

    If you cannot manage this many projects in parallel DO NOT ASK FOR FUNDING!
     
    #1 Stealth923, Dec 29, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2016
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  2. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    Thanks for creating this thread. I've been mainly focused on the lamassu project I didn't realize there might have been that many other core team/busdev projects too where we might benefit from a better transparency/communication channel.

    In case anyone is interested, we're looking to put together a system where we can more effectively gather information and evaluate strengths and weaknesses of DGBB proposals on a case-by-case basis. We tend to focus so much on the current proposals, that often times old proposals might not get followed up on, and some of us feel that we need a better way to keep track of the proposals. Things like whether the proposal owners are sufficiently transparent, whether project milestones have been met, or if not, whether that has been addressed with an appropriate revised plan. Or how and when requests for additional information have been submitted to the proposal owner, and whether or not the owner addresses them in a reasonable way. It's been exciting to see our DGBB in action each month, but I feel that it would be a missed opportunity if we don't strive to continually learn from our successes and failures. This is something that we can apply to core-team proposals and non-core proposals alike--

    Digging in the forum proposal threads, dashcentral proposal threads, and dashvotetracker vote histories can be a decent source of scattered information but I think we can do better, and it will help to have something to reference in case people get the temptation to start making too many unsupported claims or assumptions :p

    Thanks to @bigrcanada for starting the conversation in our slack channel -- we have 70 Dash pledged to help kickstart this project if we can find an effective way to direct the funds. Stop by the #dgbb_auditing channel in the Dash Nation slack if you want to help us brainstorm. Or post here :). There are plenty of considerations for how the DGBB is evolving for upcoming versions of Dash as well so we could really use some help coming up with a good solution that will be widely agreeable and hopefully won't need to be totally reworked in a matter of months.
     
    #2 TroyDASH, Dec 29, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2016
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  3. Walter

    Walter Active Member
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    I wish to echo the sentiment above... I'm also an owner operator of multiple masternodes and I too am becoming increasingly concerned with the lack of progress/updates on a number of 'non-core development' related projects that received a significant amount of funding from the DGBB system.

    In addition to @Stealth923 's question I have one:

    Could @kot, @babygiraffe or @eduffield clarify how much of the approx 11645D of funding is still under control of the treasury or the proposal owner (or assigned dash project manager) please? How much of it has already been paid to the relevant contractors? Apologies if this information is already documented somewhere else.

    Thanks

    Walter
     
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  4. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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  5. Ryan Taylor

    Ryan Taylor Well-known Member
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    Legal work - payment address is XnNdk5s2JNPEVYB4brKmfFNuotoujWEuQd - balance is 1,733.46 Dash (you can view it on the blockchain)
    We had a balance of over $13,000 with the law firm as of the end of November, so in addition to the 1,733.46 Dash, we have a balance from the first retainer remaining.

    ATM Master compliance program - the full amount was paid to the retainer at Cogent, but I don't have the current retainer balance. I'm working on getting an update on the retainer balance and the progress. Should have an update by middle of next week.

    Marketing brand and design - The full amount is still in our control. XpYyAnxCrvwa3tpV77ByH5VTyqJ3JgfN4T (viewable on the blockchain) - We will pay the vendor when the work product is accepted.

    Lamassu - The payment address belongs to the vendor, so the network paid the vendor directly. I don't allow this type of arrangement ever since I took over financial operations in April. So the vendor - Git Guild - has control over any balances.
     
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  6. Roslyn

    Roslyn Member

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    Trust, but verify.
    Russian proverb.
    Blockchains verify.
     
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  7. demo

    demo Active Member

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    "Trust but not verify" I think it was one of the motos of the Jesuits.
    It was a phrase said by Theodotus bishop of Ankyra the 431 AC at the Council of Ephesus.
    He said: "believe to the miracles and do not verify"
     
    #7 demo, Dec 30, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
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  8. Walter

    Walter Active Member
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    Thanks for the info @babygiraffe :) Hopefully we'll see some of these investments come to fruition during Q1 2017.

    Many thanks

    Walter
     
  9. demo

    demo Active Member

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    Why do you ask silly questions and you bother babygiraffe? All the information you are searching for is here http://dashvotetracker.com/past.html and here https://www.dashninja.pl/budgets.html

    For example:
    Are you searching for "Dash ATM Master Compliance Program - Phase I" ?
    go to http://dashvotetracker.com/past.html
    then find the proposal and click "details".
    this will lead you here:
    https://www.dashcentral.org/p/bsdev-ATMCompliance1
    mark the url bsdev-ATMCompliance1
    and go to
    https://www.dashninja.pl/budgets.html
    and search for "bsdev-ATMCompliance1"
    click on it and you will go to
    https://www.dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=bsdev-ATMCompliance1
    Click the payment address
    https://explorer.dashninja.pl/address/Xn9Wky3Ssda8vqDfRMK7z31tmF2okemRBe
    and you will see that it has been paid (because the payment address received the total amount (748.99) and now the funds have been withdrawn and the ballance is 5)


    Lets check now how much credible babygiraffe is.
    If you do the procedure I explained above you arrive at:
    https://www.dashninja.pl/budgetdetails.html?budgetid=mrktg-graphic-201611
    babygiraffe claims that the funds are still under their control simply because the funds have not been withdrawn yet from the Payment Address, as you can see here:
    https://explorer.dashninja.pl/address/XpYyAnxCrvwa3tpV77ByH5VTyqJ3JgfN4T

    babygiraffe also said:
    Its up to you now to judge whether the funds are really under the control of babygiraffe or not and whether he is credible or not. (hint: what if the job is not done? who takes the money?)

    "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."
     
    #9 demo, Dec 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
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  10. Walter

    Walter Active Member
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    Thanks for your insight demo.:rolleyes:
     
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  11. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    These reports are nice, but what has actually been accomplished by all this? What use is it? How did the DASH project, and the MNs, materially benefit from the money that is extracted (no matter what with no value/benefit contest)?
     
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  12. David

    David Well-known Member
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    If I could add something here, it would be that we need to a) prioritize communication, and b) delegate.

    a) When something relevant happens, post a note about it somewhere. For example, with the Legal Proposal, it would have taken less than five minutes to post "by the way guys, this is delayed because our lawyer changed firms." Bam! All done. It doesn't take much time--it just has to be made a priority.

    b) Delegate! There are a number of people, myself included, who are ready, willing, and able to help. Give us some work to do! There are plenty of people who can help with minor detail work so that y'all can focus on big-picture stuff.
     
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  13. BolehVPN

    BolehVPN Active Member

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    I do think if something went wrong or wasn't handled well, just come up with it straight away.

    Do not wait for us to PROMPT before an update is given which seems to be how it is lately. Sooner or later it will come up and the way I know how things are, the longer you sit on it, the worse it will become. Indeed if the project manager doesn't have time to update the status, then the project manager is either overworked or not doing their jobs.

    Yes I understand people are handling a lot of things but if the person has no time to update, then what hope do we have that they are managing the project?

    To me, as David said, updates are NOT a priority. I think they're beginning to forget that the money isn't theirs to begin with. I don't oppose to what Core is doing and I know they are well intentioned but perhaps it's time for us to use our votes to at least show dissatisfaction even if it means cutting funding from non critical but 'nice to have' projects.
     
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  14. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    Beginning? It's a nepotistic piggy bank funded by clueless rubes, and was designed to be exactly that. I warned about this from day one, and outlined a much better budget system that couldn't be abused like this. But, that was the whole point. It was meant to be abused, which is why it was designed in precisely a manner which could be abused even though plenty of other, simpler, dynamic, and much more graceful ideas were presented. Superblocks, fuck me... Dumb.

    10% is pulled without any good reason. May as well spend it. It is theirs. What else you gonna do with it? It's being pulled out of the blockchain no matter what. There is no value test "is this worth more than leaving the money in the blockchain" because it's being yanked no matter what. May as well waste it on hookers and blow...

    Often they work to dream up crap just to fill the budget, since any serious person has already seen the clowning and doesn't want to get involved. Anyone with real skills already gets paid, and the MNs downvote anything that isn't dirt cheap. Who wants to throw away their valuable skills to work for a bunch of demanding, clueless brats that demand free stuff and question nonsense out of left field every 10 minutes? And get paid dirt to do it? Why not just stick with your day job, get paid more, and not have to put up with any of the entitled snowflake bullshit? DASH is the worst marketplace for any skillset, and nobody with actual skill or ability will sell themselves so terribly short.

    They like to tout the DGBB as a success, but reality is that they get to keep all the free money for nothing because nobody else wants it. It just isn't worth it, and pretty much anything else in life is a better investment of time and resources.

    DASH holders are being played. Just like little kids play house, we're helping basement-dwelling neo-soviets play corporation. The feeling of "being part of something important and corporate" overwhelms the clueless simps and blinds them to what a scam it is... They don't care as long as they feel like they're doing something. Oooo, look! A report! I totally just voted, almost like a real board of directors! I feel like such a bigshot in my mommy's basement! And what was actually DONE? How did this help? Herp de derp...
     
    #14 camosoul, Jan 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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  15. demo

    demo Active Member

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    Any number that has no reason behind, should be voted.

    I invest all my time and all my resources here in this silly place, just to convince the people that they should vote the numbers.
     
    demo
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  16. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    Anyone who goes against the folks in charge round here is sidelined and labeled a troll. Stop complaining and wasting your efforts and go find better community to put your value into. These guys are just playing a big ol game of profiteering. Beware.

    Can't believe I wasted my time on this place, let alone still feel bad for everyone still following this ruse.
     
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  17. demo

    demo Active Member

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    Still havent found a cryptocurrency that supports any kind of governance. (with the exception of Decred, which I am planning to investigate)

    So the deficient governance that Dash offers, is better than nothing.
     
    #17 demo, Jan 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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  18. qwizzie

    qwizzie Well-known Member

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    Can't believe you are still wasting our time in this place, let alone make others feel bad who are visiting here. Can't you do what you told us so many times already
    and just move on? Unless you came back here for trolling purposes only ?
     
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  19. demo

    demo Active Member

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    Or maybe he "feels bad for everyone still following this ruse", thats why he is still here.
    He feels bad about you when you follow something he considers as a ruse, so he is still here to warn you about it.
     
    #19 demo, Jan 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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  20. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    I didn't notice anybody labeling Ericsammons, fible1, or anyone else who opposed the business development proposal a troll for expressing their point of view. The OP of this thread hasn't gotten flak either
     
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  21. demo

    demo Active Member

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    All the troll rates are coming from a small group of people. It is the same people who rate positively @Minotaur , the project manager of lamassu. So the rates here in this forum are somehow reversed. If you receive many troll rates, probably you are doing a good job, as long as @Minotaur is the one who received the more likes.

    The correct thing to do is to change the software of the forum and do not to show only the sum of the likes or the troll rates of a member. But also to show the distribution of those rates, how many unique people rate you like that. Because some people are casting bomb troll rates and bomb likes. It seems to me they have this as a job and, who knows, maybe they get paid for that.
     
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  22. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    I rarely agree with @demo, but even a broken clock is right twice a day... This place is the definition of a snowflake echo chamber. Hate anything that is even slightly critical of the Pied Piper... Instead of calling them racist, misogynist, etc, they just use "troll" instead...

    In a way, it's a good thing that the DGBB is a joke. If these rubes were actually calling the shots the project would be dead, not just getting scammed... I'm not sure that it's moving forward, but at least it's moving and has a pulse...

    I guess a ponzi investor can consider that it must have some kind of value if it's worth scamming...
     
  23. demo

    demo Active Member

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    The value of Dash is the governance. It is a deficient governance scheme, but it is a kind of governance, after all.

    Allowing governance requires guts. Can you point to any other cryptocoin that dares to offer a governance feature, except Dash?
     
    #23 demo, Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
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  24. stan.distortion

    stan.distortion Active Member

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    Can anyone give an example of a perfect governance system? I can't, I don't think such a thing exists so in the absence of a better alternative the best path is to start with something simple and address whatever issues arise. That was the path Bitcoin was taking with crypto but at some point they dropped the ball (or had the ball taken from them) and that opened up an opportunity for an alt to pick up the ball and run with it, Dash ran with it and addressed weaknesses that had shown up over time in Bitcoin and it will do the same with its own governance structure. This stuff doesn't happen by magic, 12.1 took a huge amount of work and lays the foundations for those improvements and actually implementing them will take even more work, more time and effort but the path is a sound one. If we could write code just by wishing it into existence then we'd all be happy, things would be fixed in an instant but unfortunately we can't, real people have to spend real time fixing these real issues.
     
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  25. AndyDark

    AndyDark Well-known Member

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    Agree with that. The key thing for me about Dash's gov system is basically decentralization. If you "follow the money", Dash is the only crypto that doesn't centralize funding, e.g. controlling donations, premine, dev-tax, whatever. Devs in Dash have to win funding through performance each month and within a market place where anyone can compete for that funding and regular intervals the core team lose proposals. It really makes other cryptos look centralized / totalitarian. In terms of how granular the network can control things down to e.g. code level, that's a rabbit hole, and it's early days.
     
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  26. Reuben

    Reuben New Member

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    This is quite an interesting topic. This is a very simplistic question, but why do some feel MN's can't tweak the governence system? Why can't changes be made that improve the governance system to their liking?
     
  27. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    There were, and still are, several vastly superior alternatives. They were ignored in favor of something that is plain ridiculous. For cause.
     
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  28. camosoul

    camosoul Well-known Member

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    Because the governance system doesn't actually govern anything. Try it. Go submit a proposal for a change to it, and see that the Pied Pipers responsible for the current rube-creation system won't budge or lift a finger.

    As I've said so many times before, to a degree, this is a good thing, as the suckernodes are a bunch of idiot brats that shouldn't be trusted with the true path of the project anyway. But this circumstance has the side-effect of exposing that the governance really doesn't do shit, and the corruption or the pork barreling I warned about is in full effect.
     
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  29. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    Besides for the fact that about 1000+ corenodes are controlled by 3 core people and just about any proposal can get voted in or out... As Camo said, the DGGB isn't a governance system at all. It is just a budget payout system based on how many whalenodes you can convince that you should get money. Did Dash increase their block size? That was approved by a vote 1 year ago and NOTHING has happened. Oops. I guess even having a proposal submitted by Evan that gets enough votes doesn't even have significance.

    Governance implies that an entity can control you by force. And since Dash isn't under any country structure, it doesn't have a legal system to enforce laws and use police to enforce change. Budget or Payroll system is all it is. But it mainly goes to the core with a little to others to make it look legit. Really a coin like zcash that has a certain % going to actual developers (not just grumpy troll labelers) that actually know what they are doing is a better option.

    I suppose a group of core replacements could vote in a proposal to change developers. But it would require every vote to have participation from at least 1100 trollnodes voting for that team. And even then, the core team will probably just hold control of github and the domain even if they stop getting budget funds. They may even kill the budget system and just have funds go back to them..... Oh wait. Could 12.1 be doing that? Wasn't there going to be multiple levels of approval? I bet final approval for any budget payout is done by a core person. I guess Feb 5th we will find out the details...unless it gets postponed again.

    Anyway, if you want to change any code with Dash you pretty much need to fork it or jump on an existing fork. I suppose you could be really nice to core people and ask...or maybe find some dirt to blackmail someone, but not likely that either of those will work on a governance code change.

    If you want to look at a coin with real 'governance' Tezos is the one. It allows voting the code that goes into a coin. But I don't think it will be the utopia everyone wants. Giving a choice of options to people that have no clue how to code isn't exactly ideal. I still think a solid development team going in the right direction is key. So is that Dash? Ummmm partnering with coinfirm basically makes mixing worthless. And adding 5+ Dash debit card options pretty much makes instantx pointless too.
     
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  30. Solarminer

    Solarminer Well-known Member

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    stan.distortion said:
    so in the absence of a better alternative
    Well, for starters if everyone in core individually submitted proposals, a few people would be fired by blockchain and the cover-ups and corruption might stop. Why are there 17 people getting paid peanuts when most of them are on vacation for weeks at a time. Just pay the few people that actually do the work and get the code done.
     
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