Dash Core Group Q4 2017 Summary Call

[Biltong]

Coders are not communicators. Full Stop, Kot obviously hates the job and comes over as morose that completely defeats the purpose. Any Billion $ co's investors would have been up in arms by now. You have 2 excellent and POSITIVE communicators with Joel and Mark. Why don't you use them? Don't you trust them? Give them access. Feed them bits of info that won't reveal 'secrets'. Daily activities. Little progress. Problems encountered and solved. If you don't know what I'm talking about follow some of the other coins on twitter.
This is unacceptable! Frankly it is what you'll expect from an unorganised startup. I talk with a bunch of Dashers every week (that I introduced to Dash) and this is a recurring theme. Ryan - This is your responsibility! Do something! Not impressed at all! Palooka time....

 

[yocko]

I don't disagree. Either way, I think it is a moot point since I very much either plan will have enough MN support to truly matter.

well, I can put together at least 60 votes from my circle! I don't want to see DASH Core lose funding but I am willing to drum up all the no votes I can to have them pay us some basic respect in the way of communication and insight. This project is not just about what the sub DAO dash core wants and decides, In DASH we have a mechanism for the stakeholders to have a voice and this will be it. We don't have to be torn apart like bitcoin!

 

[ampp]

I would just like to see some more discussion about growth challenges. Many people in this industry understand that onboarding programmers does not benefit teams in the short term but it pays off over the longer term. In the short term it often slows things down more than otherwise.

Please also keep in mind dash core went from significantly underfunded to well funded in a year. Ideally you want to grow the team based on where you are going not where you are, so that is a unfortunate core couldn't staff up significantly in 2016 to prepare for 2017 and 2018.

And please don't pretend Dash is like other crypto's. Most hype crypto's are benefiting by copying features from bitcoin core or now the iota tangle tech and acting like it is a revolutionary upgrade. Somehow demoing instant transactions & lightning became interesting to the uniformed, when dash has had that for a long time. I see "substantial" news that come out on crypto's talking about their first wallets, Dash is so far beyond that. Everyone here is under agreement that Dash has a different roadmap then bitcoin and has significant engineering differences so if anything to be on the top you should be comparing dash to bitcoins development which is slow and tedious vs fast and reckless. Not long ago many were comparing Dash to PIVX which was hyping up a lot of features only to have their blockchain stop twice for many hours due to bugs. Luckily dash has the benefit of actually rolling out the finished code without that bitcoin like contention.

 

[yocko]

I would just like to see some more discussion about growth challenges. Many people in this industry understand that onboarding programmers does not benefit teams in the short term but it pays off over the longer term. In the short term it often slows things down more than otherwise.

Please also keep in mind dash core went from significantly underfunded to well funded in a year. Ideally you want to grow the team based on where you are going not where you are, so that is a unfortunate core couldn't staff up significantly in 2016 to prepare for 2017 and 2018.

And please don't pretend Dash is like other crypto's. Most hype crypto's are benefiting by copying features from bitcoin core or now the iota tangle tech and acting like it is a revolutionary upgrade. Somehow demoing instant transactions & lightning became interesting to the uniformed, when dash has had that for a long time. I see "substantial" news that come out on crypto's talking about their first wallets, Dash is so far beyond that. Everyone here is under agreement that Dash has a different roadmap then bitcoin and has significant engineering differences so if anything to be on the top you should be comparing dash to bitcoins development which is slow and tedious vs fast and reckless. Not long ago many were comparing Dash to PIVX which was hyping up a lot of features only to have their blockchain stop twice for many hours due to bugs. Luckily dash has the benefit of actually rolling out the finished code without that bitcoin like contention.

Don't get me wrong here, I am with DASH all the way and know this is the best digital cash solution in the market. When I made the comparison, it concerns the rift in the community. Bitcoin has been torn apart because devs want one thing and the community wants another; DASH should not have this issue because we can vote.

 

[camosoul]

1) DASH may be "way ahead," but nobody knows...

2) A revolt? I'm probably the project's harshest critic, but in no way would I side with a revolt. Corrupt productivity is better than no productivity. If you discredit and remove them, who will do the job in their place? Most of them are not dirtbags anyway, just a few. I hold in my hands, absolute proof that would destroy this project. I've had it for a couple years. But, killing DASH is not what I want.

DASH used to be an obvious 11/10 when everything else was a 2/10 at best. Now, DASH is a 2.5/10 and everything else is still a 2/10. It's a lot like the USA, and white girls... Used to be awesome, but now, just slightly better than "meh..." And in the case of white girls, less than meh...

Having seen DASH fall from it's original great height gives us, who have been here to see the fall, a sour mood. Nobody else sees it, so they stay the same as always... But, as I reminded someone a few months ago... It's not as awesome as it used to be, but it's still the best thing going, even if there are a couple of dickheads in there willing to burn the whole thing down in a tantrum just to get their way, as more people get hired, the more dilute that is... I tried to push this bunch into action years ago, but I got tired of beating my head against a wall. They just plain don't get it and imagine themselves gods that already preside over all of crypto. They exist in a vacuum and will not tolerate a word from anyone to the contrary of the ivory tower echo chamber...

Save your breath. They won't listen or give a single fuck about anything that happens in reality. The circle-jerk is life...

DASH has survived purely on the spectacular idiocy of the rest of the market, but that luxury is rapidly coming to an end. All you can do is stay ready and keep your ear to the rail. If DASH manages to pull this out of the fire, it'll be nothing short of an entire stack of miracles. But, since I've watched a fair portion of that stack unfold already... I'm willing to keep betting on the streak...

 

[Stealth923]

I am going to wait until Friday to see if the update is another general “we have done good work this quarter, thank you all for attending”.

With Evolution being closed source for 2 years, the community should instead be getting professional work in progress updates monthly to ensure investors are confident in their decision to place their money in this asset. Instead we have had silence for 2 years with delay after delay with the roadmap now out of date. The Dash DIPs were supposedly finalized from the Hong Kong meetup many months ago yet now they say the roadmap can’t be updated until the documentation is complete. Whatever that means. @AndyDark as the CTO and technical solution owner needs to step out of his comfort zone and start releasing some digestible information about Evolution to the public.

I am all for making Joel / Mark the official core communications team to investors. Core clearly doesn’t care enough about its investors to provide any relevant updates on a monthly basis. The monthly update reports needs to be aligned with the roadmap as that’s what Core is delivering against. Not just “we on boarded 1 developer” or “did not have enough info for this section”.

What billion dollar company do you know would release a monthly update report to its investors saying “not enough information provided from the team”.

 

[revelations86]

From skimming through this thread, I think that the biggest issue seems to be communication and project management. But to be fair, this seems to be a common issue across the vast majority of Crypto projects I've seen. I've also had exposure to technology/development teams within the finance industry for many years and can tell you that given the complexity of technology and the development and testing process, it is very difficult task (although, not impossible) to give a definite deadline. It is also a juggle sometimes between releasing something on time and have bugs or delay and test to correct the bugs. Do you guys remember Windows ME, Windows Vista, Windows 8?

As a best practice I have seen among some Crypto projects, I would recommend the creation of blog with a weekly update on development progress. I am sure that behind the scenes they are working hard.

 

[revelations86]

Just on a side note, I am meeting with a developer tomorrow who works on Bitcoin ATMs to discuss the feasibility of adding Dash. I will keep you guys posted and if all goes well, I will be putting together a proposal for funding through the DAO.

 

[TanteStefana]

It would be more conducive to this thread's purpose if ya'all would write a clear question for core to answer, especially if you don't want your question lost in the arguing. Just a helpful hint

My Questions based on above (if they haven't already been asked as I've already forgotten what's on the first pages, LOL) :

1. When will 12.3 be in open testnet?
2. When will 13 be in open testnet, or how long after 12.3 do you project it will take?
3. Finally, please guess how many beans are in this jar, thank you for your time.

Spoiler: Spoiler alert

I have no f'ing idea, have a drink with me

 

[yocko]

Just on a side note, I am meeting with a developer tomorrow who works on Bitcoin ATMs to discuss the feasibility of adding Dash. I will keep you guys posted and if all goes well, I will be putting together a proposal for funding through the DAO.

Sounds good, I am thinking about setting up a DASH atm network across Australia.

 

[iFr4g]

I kinda wished we had the DAPI by now, the capitalist in me loves market competition.

 

[qwizzie]

It would be more conducive to this thread's purpose if ya'all would write a clear question for core to answer, especially if you don't want your question lost in the arguing. Just a helpful hint

My Questions based on above (if they haven't already been asked as I've already forgotten what's on the first pages, LOL) :

1. When will 12.3 be in open testnet?
2. When will 13 be in open testnet, or how long after 12.3 do you project it will take?
3. Finally, please guess how many beans are in this jar, thank you for your time.

Spoiler: Spoiler alert

I have no f'ing idea, have a drink with me

With regards to question 3 : i'm guessing more then 1 ?

You WIN! I ate all but one, which I left in the jar

 

[solarguy]

The Masternode community, and the larger Dash community have long advocated for a dedicated Communications person. The advantages are many:

1. Far far more efficient. In the past, when some urgent question came up, everybody and their dog pinged everybody on Core that they could get access to. I believe this became a distraction, and probably even became background noise. This is exactly how you train the Dash Core to ignore questions from the community. It is impossible for Core to respond to many random, redundant, and often useless questions that have been answered 89 times already. They would never get any actual work done. A designated Communications person becomes the gatekeeper, and can strain out the duplicated, inefficient unnecessary noise and end up with the 3 or 4 or 6 really meaningful questions that deserve a timely and meaningful response.

2. Improves community moral and reduces drama. There is now an official channel to send questions to, with the very reasonable expectation that an answer will be forthcoming. Stop pestering Core and direct your questions and concerns to the Communications person.

3. We get the information and answers we need, without having to run the development process in a glass house where all our competitors can see every move we make, and just copy/paste our ground breaking work, thus killing out competitive advantage.


Based on conversations over on DashNation discord, it appears to me that, on purpose or by accident, Joel V. has become that designated Communications person. I can totally work with that. Joel is a stand up guy that gets the work done.

Let's get on with taking over the world.

 

[lombardo2]

This reminds me of Nintendo. They are super secret and annoy their fans and and investors. Then after 5 years they release the best game ever. They became even more secretive than usual for their latest console because they didn't want their competitors to steal their ideas.

However unlike Nintendo we are dealing with the crypto market. A short while of no news will make the price plummet and the investors will go elsewhere. More importantly there will be less money for the treasury.

If you cant give us an Evolution update then at least give us Coinbase.

 

[BoomStick]

Based on conversations over on DashNation discord, it appears to me that, on purpose or by accident, Joel V. has become that designated Communications person. I can totally work with that. Joel is a stand up guy that gets the work done.

I agree that Joel is a stand up guy doing amazing job for DASH, but in my opinion role of communications person should be full-time not part-time. I think distracting Joel from his daily tasks and things he is doing the best (writing great articles for DFN) would be harmful for the quality and quantity of texts on Dash Force News.

Communications person should be available all the time for the community to relay questions and concerns to the Core Team and pushing hard to get meaningful answers. It isn't the easiest role and it requires dedication, stubbornness and probably a bit of technical knowledge about software development. I'd suggest hiring a new person (or finding one available within the community) just for that one goal: being an interface between DASH Core Team and DASH Community.

 

[Stealth923]

The Masternode community, and the larger Dash community have long advocated for a dedicated Communications person. The advantages are many:

1. Far far more efficient. In the past, when some urgent question came up, everybody and their dog pinged everybody on Core that they could get access to. I believe this became a distraction, and probably even became background noise. This is exactly how you train the Dash Core to ignore questions from the community. It is impossible for Core to respond to many random, redundant, and often useless questions that have been answered 89 times already. They would never get any actual work done. A designated Communications person becomes the gatekeeper, and can strain out the duplicated, inefficient unnecessary noise and end up with the 3 or 4 or 6 really meaningful questions that deserve a timely and meaningful response.

2. Improves community moral and reduces drama. There is now an official channel to send questions to, with the very reasonable expectation that an answer will be forthcoming. Stop pestering Core and direct your questions and concerns to the Communications person.

3. We get the information and answers we need, without having to run the development process in a glass house where all our competitors can see every move we make, and just copy/paste our ground breaking work, thus killing out competitive advantage.


Based on conversations over on DashNation discord, it appears to me that, on purpose or by accident, Joel V. has become that designated Communications person. I can totally work with that. Joel is a stand up guy that gets the work done.

Let's get on with taking over the world.

I really hope Core reads your awesome post.

 

[solarguy]

I agree that Joel is a stand up guy doing amazing job for DASH, but in my opinion role of communications person should be full-time not part-time. I think distracting Joel from his daily tasks and things he is doing the best (writing great articles for DFN) would be harmful for the quality and quantity of texts on Dash Force News.

Communications person should be available all the time for the community to relay questions and concerns to the Core Team and pushing hard to get meaningful answers. It isn't the easiest role and it requires dedication, stubbornness and probably a bit of technical knowledge about software development. I'd suggest hiring a new person (or finding one available within the community) just for that one goal: being an interface between DASH Core Team and DASH Community.

I would love to hear that Core is hiring a dedicated communications person. Joel has enough on his plate in my estimation. But, hey, whatever gets the job done.

 

[bigrcanada]

I can not understand why we are still haveing this discussion?!? This is asinine... And beyond ridiculous. Our budget can afford to pay for even a couple of professional communicators that should have unfettered access to the core team. The core teams works for us...for not only the stake holder such as the miners and masternode owners like myself but the dash community at large. There is a small deep core of people in DASH that we need to shake up here...it is time to open the doors...and it starts with communication . Period

 

[TanteStefana]

I can not understand why we are still haveing this discussion?!? This is asinine... And beyond ridiculous. Our budget can afford to pay for even a couple of professional communicators that should have unfettered access to the core team. The core teams works for us...for not only the stake holder such as the miners and masternode owners like myself but the dash community at large. There is a small deep core of people in DASH that we need to shake up here...it is time to open the doors...and it starts with communication . Period

I'm not trying to argue, but the Core Team is more like a subcontractor, and as such, they need to deliver, but we "owners" don't have any right, in normal business at least, to micromanage how the perform their work. Though next time, we can require more specific reporting.

Then again, this is a weird setup, I'll admit But I think they have improved a lot with Chuck becoming more of the "face of Dash Core" especially since he is very articulate and has a good pulse on the community and what they want to know, while understanding the strategies that Core has set and what to protect. I mean, it is a ton better than it was last year

RE: a communicator, I would think it would have to be someone like Chuck, someone that's been with us long enough to know things and understand them. But if you have someone like that, you don't want to put them on customer service, he's more useful elsewhere

BUT, I still think Ryan should have a secretary. Such a person could in time be a central person of "knowledge" since they'd be assisting Ryan, and that person eventually could become a person to keep the community informed. I want Ryan to be well informed about everything and not overwhelmed with tiny minutia. So someone should be there to help filter through the stuff. But then I am micromanaging, LOL. And how do I really know this would work? I'm not Ryan, I just suspect.

 

[kot]

Dear All,

Thank you for joining the call today. I hope we have addressed at least majority of your questions and concerns.

Presentation is available under the following location: https://dashpay.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/OC/pages/191168683/Dach+Core+Group+Q4+2017+Summary
Video is available in our Youtube channel:

 

[ampp]

@Dash News Network
In the business world there are general expectations of polite behavior required to get any attention, here are some ways that you're making things more difficult for yourself.

1. You're the exact equivalent to the cat who claws people and yet expects to get petted.
2. You're like the reporter who asks double negatives. Did you steal a cookie, or did you steal the cookie jar?
3. You can't ask questions while simultaneously making jabs.
4. You can't be taken seriously using a name like Dash News Network to look more important than average.
5. You have all the signs of being a socket puppet account of a competing crypto community.

Anyway, you should be banned (again probably) but then that just gives you another victim card to go play on Reddit. If you had a legitimate issue then a significant number of people should join your cause to get it answered, so sure blame core for not paying attention to you but blame the masternode owners more.

 

[yocko]

@ampp

Moaning about what a terrible person I am and crying about how victimized you are really isn't the best way to deflect attention away from 100% entirely pertinent questions about Dash Core, Evolution, etc.

Nevertheless, I will rewrite and resubmit my 100% legitimate questions in a strictly neutral manner so you won't have the excuse of being too offended and triggered by my tone.


1. Where is the IPv6 functionality we were told was being restored?

2. Where is the explanation and accountability for Evolution being more than 2 years behind schedule?

3. How is Dash going to handle the regulatory crackdown coming due to it being marketed as an investment in a common enterprise (triggering the Howey test)?

4. Where is Dash's answer to the new features enabled by RBF, segwit, Bech32, Schnorr signature aggregation, and range proofs?

5. How (and when) does Dash plan to fix its transaction malleability problem?

6. Why is PrivateSend still such a slow, expensive, and unreliable user experience even after Evan claimed PrivateSend's problems were all fixed (back when Masternode blinding was supposedly "done" many years ago)?

7. How is Dash going to compete with the nearly zero fees and nearly instant confirmation times of much Bitcoin's Lightning Network (which doesn't require paying Masternodes)?

8. Is this level of opaque development and announcing new features like collateralized mining only to abandon them without comment going to continue?

9. Why doesn't Dash Core use a Warrant Canary like almost all other privacy-sensitive crypto/fintech projects?


I pray you will find my questions are now presented in a sufficiently polite, businesslike fashion and are soon able to help answer them!

Piss off mate, I personally don't even read your trolling anymore.

 

[yocko]

Just letting everyone know I won't be casting no votes for DASH Core, however frustrating things get while waiting they are working solid on this project for us.
I am still of the opinion that we need to work out a clear and direct way to get questions answered.

 

[demo]

I am still of the opinion that we need to work out a clear and direct way to get questions answered.

I have pointed to this issue ages ago.
The solution is to target and blame the persons who do not answer.
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/people-who-do-not-answer-questions.12979/

 

[TroyDASH]

1. Where is the IPv6 functionality we were told was being restored?

2. Where is the explanation and accountability for Evolution being more than 2 years behind schedule?

3. How is Dash going to handle the regulatory crackdown coming due to it being marketed as an investment in a common enterprise (triggering the Howey test)?

4. Where is Dash's answer to the new features enabled by RBF, segwit, Bech32, Schnorr signature aggregation, and range proofs?

5. How (and when) does Dash plan to fix its transaction malleability problem?

6. Why is PrivateSend still such a slow, expensive, and unreliable user experience even after Evan claimed PrivateSend's problems were all fixed (back when Masternode blinding was supposedly "done" many years ago)?

7. How is Dash going to compete with the nearly zero fees and nearly instant confirmation times of much Bitcoin's Lightning Network (which doesn't require paying Masternodes)?

8. Is this level of opaque development and announcing new features like collateralized mining only to abandon them without comment going to continue?

9. Why doesn't Dash Core use a Warrant Canary like almost all other privacy-sensitive crypto/fintech projects?

This is getting voted down as trolling, but to be honest this is the closest thing to decent questions that this user has ever produced, and I would not mind if someone in Dash Core would address them, or if someone else could point to where they are already addressed.

 

[Nigel Robinson]

Oh! i don't think it is a fair question!

 

[t0dd]

This is getting voted down as trolling, but to be honest this is the closest thing to decent questions that this user has ever produced, and I would not mind if someone in Dash Core would address them, or if someone else could point to where they are already addressed.

They are decent questions. But not asked in a reasonable way. Therefore, I wouldn't even bother. Passive aggression receives silence from me. I advocate the same response (no response) from Dash Core.

 

[demo]

Passive aggression receives silence from me. I advocate the same response (no response) from Dash Core.

You are confused. The one who does not answer to questions and ignores the presence of the others, is the one who suffers from passive aggretion. The one who ask questions, is not passive aggresive.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...signs-youre-dealing-passive-aggressive-person

5 Signs That You're Dealing With Passive-Aggressive Persons

1. The silent treatment.
In its standard form, the silent treatment consists of completely ignoring another person, refusing to answer any questions from the person, and perhaps even refusing to acknowledge their presence.
2. Subtle insults.
3. Sullen behavior.
4. Stubbornness.
5. Failure to finish required tasks.

Dealing With Passive Aggression
The most effective approach is to ignore the behavior and pretend you don't notice it. If it doesn't appear to affect you, there is not much in it for them, and they may stop the behavior because of your lack of a reaction.
When ignoring passive-aggressive behavior is not feasible, perhaps because it strongly affects you psychologically, the best you can do is to maintain distance from the person as much as possible.
If the aggressor is a colleague who works near you, ask if you can be transferred to another space in your workplace so you don't have to be around the person all the time. That might take care of the problem. If you cannot be moved, you can do your best to interact only minimally with the individual. Every interaction should be professional and to the point, which will deter the aggressor from escalating.

So in our case the core team members, as long as they have read the questions and they refuse to answer, they should be named as passive aggresives.

Of course it is impossible to ignore the core team, because the core team rules and their decisions (or non decisions) affect the masternodes owners , the miners, the dash holders and all the Dash community in general.

So the only way to deal with the passive-aggretion disorder of the core team is to ask the core team in a professional way and to the point.

Or , if you are a (non stupid/non spy) masternode owner, you should first find a better core team, then vote in the budget in a way that will fire the old core team and will hire the new better one. And the only way to discover the better core team is to incentivize various developers to propose to the budget system. And then stop voting for advertising bullshits and vote in favor of develpment projects in the budget system. That way the best developers will appear, prove themselves as competitive and consistent, and then the masternodes will be safe to hire them as core team members.

 

[t0dd]

You are confused. The one who does not answer to questions and ignores the presence of the others, is the one who suffers from passive aggretion. The one who ask questions, is not passive aggresive.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...signs-youre-dealing-passive-aggressive-person

Read your link again. But we all know this behavior. A concern troll for example, is a prototypical passive aggressive. Anyone that questions or comments with embedded or "subtle insult" is also typical (like the questioner in this thread). All they have earned is to be flagged as someone I ignore.

 

[demo]

Read your link again. But we all know this behavior. A concern troll for example, is a prototypical passive aggressive. Anyone that questions or comments with embedded or "subtle insult" is also typical (like the questioner in this thread). All they have earned is to be flagged as someone I ignore.

Ok...I agree.

The core team is certainly passive aggresive because they do not answer questions, but also whoever ask questions to the core team with embedded or "subtle insult" may also be considered as a passive aggresive too.

As already said, a way to deal with the passive-aggretion disorder of the core team is to ask them in a professional way and to the point, and certainly not ask them questions with embedded or "subtle insult". Passive aggretion VS passive aggretion leads nowhere, taking also into account that it is impossible to ignore the core team.

Of course, the other way is to find a better core team....