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Budget Proposal - Vendor-Experience

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by Solarminer, Jan 28, 2016.

  1. lynx

    lynx Active Member

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    I think I missed that reply, but I'm responding to it now. Hey, that's not how it works. If I were to have a baby, I would need 9 months to show the first results of the project. If I say I need 9 months, and you cut funding at 3 or 4 months, it means the project doesn't get completed and there is nothing to show for it.

    And you are asking for 8 freaking years. That's what makes no sense to me. Why can't this project have shorter goals? What do you expect to accomplish in 8 years that needs funding all this time and can't be broken into smaller projects?

    To put it in other words, I don't want to start funding a project that I don't know how long it takes to bear fruit, and have someone tell me that I can cut the funding at any time. That makes no sense.
     
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  2. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    lynx basically, it's because these guys, though really motivated, want our commitment to them for them to start this project. We can withdraw it at any time, and we will have to withdraw it when the price of Dash makes this too expensive to support, but until then, they feel that if they're going to do this, they want us to show our support. This is the comment from Camo that made me "get it" He wants our commitment to them, and this is how he wants it shown.

    "This is an ongoing thing that requires commitment, determination, and persistence. Nobody gets it. So, the vending machine becomes an ex-post-facto pump/dump gimmick and rots on the vine, sitting in my shop reminding me every day not to give that much of myself to people who just plain don't get it."

    Like he said, this is ongoing, they're moving on their ideas, discarding those ideas that aren't working out, all with the goal of making a payment system that logs all the information for auditing and managing a store and has the best hardware or existing hardware/software integration. They want to enroll "victims" or merchants willing to experiment with them. They want to then start promoting this payment system. A lot of people don't understand how powerfully alluring Dash is to a merchant that understands. Merchants will offer discounts if you pay in Dash, customers will learn how to use it. It becomes a positive cycle. This is the basic plan, it requires equipment, raw materials to make it look good, and hoofing it around to get victims, that is merchants to work with them.

    Solar said he'd submit to questioning on how things are going, and give us updates. They already have a website, where they've posted updates as the soda machine project progressed, they could blog there for us as well. I worked for the City, and I know how limiting rules are, and these guys don't want to be held to arbitrary initial plan ideas that they have to sputter out to satisfy our rules, because they don't mean anything. Not at first at least. They have to throw things out there and see what sticks.

    Anyway, I can deal with that. I can see why they want a commitment like this even if it's not realistic that it won't be voted down in a few to 6 months with a request to resubmit a lower Dash amount (because I expect ever hopefully that Dash's price will skyrocket, LOL). I'm willing to show I'm supportive.

    They've stated that they do not want to make money off of this, just keep their out of pocket costs down. They will make all their code open source, and expect companies to pop up and integrate this code into their machines. That's the final goal, to have something that others can adopt and exponentially grow. I think everyone keeps thinking that crypto is still such a hard sell, it's not, not at all. We kind of all have a residual "Bitcoin mentality" but that's only because Bitcoin doesn't work, and everyone has known this for many years now. Dash works. Dash works now, and it'll work even better with Evolution :)
     
    #62 TanteStefana, Jan 28, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2016
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  3. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Why am I writing this ^^ ? instead of them? Because they're too stubborn and just want to grump. But since this reason actually makes sense to me, I understand what they're after now, I'm writing it here on their behalf. Even so they are being BABIES not writing it themselves, or else they didn't know why they were insisting on this time span, and couldn't put it into words for us.

    Good nite ya'all
     
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  4. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    They've got the idea, we've got the network. For an 8 year project, they have the option of going it alone and keeping 100% of the profit. Or we invest and receive a share in their enterprise. Or they can try kickstarter.
     
  5. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    I don't think so, we'll cut it off long before then, to have them resubmit a lower cost, etc... as needed if they're doing a good job. If we felt they were screwing with us, we could cut them off again. I don't think $3000/mo will come close to paying for 3 men's work, all the hardware they have to get to try things out with, etc...I'm not immediately concerned about the price of this proposal at the moment. And I think their efforts, which were pretty herculean IMO, with the Dash n Drink machine shows their ability and commitment.

    And that's not even mentioning the costs of other things they'd like to try such as hiring programmers and others.

    From Solarminer: "Key point is that this should be a core project for dash. Just like core devlopers and public awareness. It is ongoing. It is a long development cycle, involves all the different areas with dash. And most importantly is vital to adoption."

    Which is true.
     
    #65 TanteStefana, Jan 28, 2016
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  6. InTheWoods

    InTheWoods Well-known Member
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    For a series of reasons as follows:

    *Ideally we want to prove our model is viable and that entities working with Dash have adopted it as well. This would help on several fronts.
    *It would be consistent with a vision for a decentralized world where one does not need to be recognized by some established government in order to function
    *being incorporated as a standard company would provide an easy way for the Dash infrastructure (which these projects will become) to be attacked by the powers that be. Dash is flying under the radar currently but it will start to be attacked later on once it becomes more visible. I've been around crypto since the early days and I've seen how government regulation brought down lots of cool businesses in the ecosystem. They've done their best to comply and yet they were viciously attacked and screwed over. Best is to play by a different set of rules.
    *it doesn't matter a project starts small. The advantage of a decentralized corporation is that it can get lots of people onboard very easily, people who love the idea, instead of complying with crap like enforced minimum wage requirements, enforced taxation, having company bank accounts (using the current banking system), complying with expensive and stupid regulations and so on.
    *last but not least because of agorism
     
    #66 InTheWoods, Jan 28, 2016
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  7. BrainShutdown

    BrainShutdown Well-known Member
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    Great initiative! You got my votes because:

    - we can cut funding at any time (maintain control)
    - this guys just did one of the most exciting things in this cryptosphere with real world use (track record)
    - they did it with low budget and in short time (focused and goal oriented)
    - they gathered other valuable community members from various areas in this common goal (leadership and management skills)

    It really is a no brainer ;)
     
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  8. alex-ru

    alex-ru Grizzled Member
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    Great Proposal!

    Maybe somebody already has been written about it, but I will say:

    It would be perfect if the result of your work will come out not as single devices but as "developer kits".
    So that anyone could buy (non-profit prices) your ready and tested Raspberry-PIs, then download the software and detailed instructions "do-it-yourself" on how to rework the standard popular devices. So anybody then can give them to a local or Chinese manufacturers - and recive multiple DASH-machines in a few months in their town.
     
    #68 alex-ru, Jan 28, 2016
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  9. raganius

    raganius cryptoPag.com
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    As far as I understood, this is a research proposal.

    Obviously, it's for the benefit of the whole DASH network and commnunity that we also have a serious and competent Research Team! (Not only a Development Team. Not only a Marketing Team).

    Is 8 years too long?
    Of course it is not too long. It's enough for the good development of the works of the team and their reserches which findings will improve DASH usability.

    The team needs assurance from the network in order that they are confortable, for example, to engage in bigger projects (that would, for example, demand some accumulation of funds for eventual higher expenses needed).

    A serious research project works aiming for a long tearm goal. It will never be serious and functional if the Community demands them short term rushed results. The three, four monts, short term project that some members are asking for, if we are talking about research projects, would be nothing more than phony research project, as far as I can see it (especially in this revolutionary field we are treading on)

    If, after a reasonable lapse of time, the research team, eventually, do not meet expectations of the community. The community will be able to downvote it for good.

    If, eventually, a better proposal emerges, it will be able to supersede this porposal.

    This is a serious and competent team, bringing this opportunity to the DASH network. They already proved themselves many times (not only with the vending machine): Are we going to waste it?

    The results of their research will bring practical benefits for us all.

    What concerns remain?
     
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  10. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    Personally, I don't want to set an example where all projects are basically set for 8 years on a rolling basis and then being told we have the free will to vote it out at any time. Voting should be clearer than that, voting to the positive. It's basically opting-out instead of opting-in.

    Regarding centralisation; there is nothing centralised about this project so long everything is open sourced and well documented. The end result will operate across the dash network and be open for all to see and copy.

    Even if we regard this as a research project, I'd want to see fruit from this a lot earlier than 8 years. This isn't a grand space project... and even if it was, I would still want to see a timeline of milestones to be achieved. Where do we want to be with this in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years from now? If the people doing this work can't see that far ahead then why ask that of the community?

    Any long term project should be broken down into digestible goals. I fully accept that as we work towards those goals, the rules may very well change, but to go at this for 8 years without some focus would be a mistake.
     
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  11. Somali-Warlord

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    I don't know anything about 8 years, but funding like you said is moment to moment. Just like real funding for research. I like how the votes are pretty even yes/no, as I would like this project to be funded for a few years.
     
  12. David

    David Well-known Member
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    Cross-posting my comment from Slack:

    ---

    I was going to type out a long, detailed response on Dashtalk but frankly I'm exhausted. We now have hurt feelings, accusations of malfeasance, petulance, rancor, stubbornness, and sarcasm that borders on contempt. We are becoming more like Bitcoin every day =(

    Even at Dash's current valuation, the proposers are asking for a quarter million dollars over eight years. That's assuming Dash never increases in value. That's enough money that I think the community has the right to ask questions. Anyone requesting that much money should have a very thick skin. Terpin-PR got a LOT of opposition and caused tons of controversy, but I never once saw Evan post the sort of comments that some here are making.

    The proposers have been virtually guaranteed passage if they reduce the timeframe and reapply for funding every 3-6 months. If the proposal doesn't pass in its current form, I hope they will consider trying again with shorter timeframes. For what it's worth, a LOT of people really want to support this proposal.
     
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  13. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    I expect things to get a lot more inflamed but it's not like bitcoin because ultimately they don't have a voting system like ours.

    Right now we have a low threshold of 10% and it probably works because we don't have that many proposals. But as the system grows, I expect the threshold will rise, as will our expectations in terms of planning and presentation.
     
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  14. raganius

    raganius cryptoPag.com
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    I agree with you that, even though this is "DASH politics", we should not take things personal on votings. One thing I am sure of: we all want the best for DASH.

    And it is with this exact premise (we all want the best for DASH) that I am confident that the proposal aims the best for DASH, as the proposers have stated.

    Grumpiness and hurt feelings should not disturb this beautiful machine: the DASH governance.

    As I said above: I understood that the approved proposals are not perpetual binds to the community. If I understood it correctly, worries like "too long... to many payments" are poor agrumentation..... that would serve to disallow the Marketing approved budget as well as the Developers approved budget.

    edit: OT ps. One thing I like with DASH's governance system is the fact that any person is allowed to submit proposals, and (more important) ANY person may engage in the debates, with arguments pro or con. It does not matter if the person is a big holder of DASH or a small holer of DASH (it doesn't even matter even if the person holds no DASH at all).

    And, to make great things greater: all debates, votings and results are publicly availabe.

    It's a very honest voting system, IMO. Allowing the participation, inclusion and supervision of all, indistinctly.

    The fact that only Masternoders (serious investors) vote is only a way to maintain the seriousness of this governance solution, and in no way disturbs its fairness.

    We definitely are making history here. Let's be proud of it!

    (sorry for the OT)
     
    #74 raganius, Jan 28, 2016
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  15. Jeztah

    Jeztah Active Member

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    As someone said above, this research should be a core function. What good is DASH without having a use?

    That said, I don't think it's unreasonable for the community to want to know more.
     
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  16. noobtrader

    noobtrader Active Member

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    +1

    i actually want to vote yes after his vending machine success, but funding proposal this big should have more info, what the goal post within certain month year etc, why need so much fund, plan of where the money will be allocated etc.

    give us more reason to vote yes please Thanks
     
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  17. David

    David Well-known Member
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    I will say one last thing regarding the "You can always vote the proposal down in the future" theory.

    In the United States, local governments often submit bond proposals to the community for a vote. These are essentially either new sales taxes or property taxes designed to pay for a specific thing, like schools or fire departments. Advocates of these taxes solicit votes by pointing out that the tax is only temporary, and in three years (or however long), the tax will expire.

    Three years later, these same advocates come back and ask voters to renew the bond proposal, because we really need to do XYZ and we can do that without any new taxes if you approve the renewal!

    For all intents and purposes, these taxes which are initially promised to be only temporary generally keep getting renewed again and again, since it's difficult to motivate people to go to the polls to oppose something that isn't going to cost them any additional money, other than what they are already paying.

    It is very difficult, if not impossible, to rally enough people to defeat something once it has been initially approved and is set in motion.
     
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  18. InTheWoods

    InTheWoods Well-known Member
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    David
    This is exactly what I've said. Not many people will go back to a proposal to renew or to cancel it.
     
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  19. Vedran Yoweri

    Vedran Yoweri Active Member

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    Excuse me, some thoughts.

    300.000 USD? 99 payments? I hope this is a test to gouge the robustness of the user base. :) My vote would be no.

    Maybe it's more efficient to utilize budget resources to the advancement of the DAPI and related DASH tech. This would make it very easy to integrate DASH functionality in these POS applications and any other application. Sample apps and how-to code samples should be part of the development deliverables.

    The DASH budget system is to valuable to use for every 'good idea', this should be left to entrepreneurs. They have a budgeting system wich works well. The DASH budget system should mainly be used for stuff that's not going to be done by entrepreneurs, like decentralized exchange, OpenBazaar integration, advancement of DASH Core and DAPI etc.

    We should also be aware of the trolls and they're family. The success factors of DASH will be targeted. Everyone and it's dog will try to get this -free money- into there hands, if only to claim they 'hacked' the system.

    TC
     
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  20. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    And a proposal just came in for the Satoshi Roundtable, no comment, no author, 718 coins for 2 months and it already has 87 yes votes. WTF? At least be sure it's Evan's proposal!
     
  21. InTheWoods

    InTheWoods Well-known Member
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    Guess someone is trying to make a point and to act all clever afterwards. I don't think this came from Evan but someone wants people to think it did.
     
  22. alex-ru

    alex-ru Grizzled Member
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    I think we should better explain to MN's owners (A kind of brochure "How to vote in Dash system?") how voting works.

    Because this Proposal is not in fact about "8 years = 72,171 DASH"
    This Proposal is about "729 DASH per moth - please you decide for how many months to vote".

    So everybody who want to support this team - just start financing it now by voting "YES".
    And then just vote "NO" when you think Proposal's financing is big enough.

    1. If you want to finance it with 729 DASH - please vote "NO" after 1 month.
    2. If you want to finance it with 1458 DASH -please vote "NO" after 2 month.
    ...
    6. If you want to finance it with 4374 DASH -please vote "NO" after half a year.
    It's that simple. It always stays under your control.

    I don't see any problem with "huge numbers" - they are mythical in fact.
     
    #82 alex-ru, Jan 28, 2016
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  23. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Daniel said it came from Evan, from his announcement on Miami. Maybe all the votes are insiders, but it needs to be explained IMO, if we require this of others. And there is yet another proposal for 7000 dash per month to start a company, LOL.
     
  24. noobtrader

    noobtrader Active Member

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    proposal spam... wow... this is new. i guess proposal fee should be higher, deadline should be longer, and voting target should be bigger
     
  25. InTheWoods

    InTheWoods Well-known Member
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    I know about the Satoshi Round Table invite and the person who made that proposal obviously knows about it as well. I don't think it came from Evan because he always provided details on all his proposals. It would be a first if he didn't and just doesn't make any sense.
     
  26. Vedran Yoweri

    Vedran Yoweri Active Member

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    No, not needed.

    And then? Money gone. Reputation down the drain.

    Getting enough people to disable a running budget will be a troll infested war we should try to avoid.
     
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  27. raganius

    raganius cryptoPag.com
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    That's what I have been saying since https://dashtalk.org/threads/dash-budget-proposals-voting-rules.6130

    Many (most) people does not read code. The way the voting process works should be clearly translated into plain English, in order to avoid doubts like the ones we encountere here.

    But I don't want to wait for the entrepeneurs: if DASH can act and prove our ideals are valid, why should we abstain to act now?

    If we have a quick look around the cryptocurrencies main forums it's not hard to see that the standard disseminated view about DASH is "it's snake oil", "it's bla bla bla", "it does not work".... How are "outsiders" going to see through all this troll's discourse if the DASH community does not prove ourselves?

    DASH does need research. DASH does need to show potential entrepeneurs that it is real, by means of these research results.

    It's unfair to say that the people behind the proposal are trying to hack our budget system for their own benefit! (edit: I am sure competent and dedicated researchers do cost a lot more)
     
    #87 raganius, Jan 28, 2016
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  28. raganius

    raganius cryptoPag.com
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    lol. why not?

    to keep everyone lost and blind in the system?
     
  29. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    Apparently he had a doctor's appointment. Anyway, I won't vote until he claims it.

    Look, there is no budget space for the next 3 months anyway. I hope the guys can resubmit this budget in 2 months for 3 months from now. Hopefully we can get it to pass.
     
  30. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    I blame craigrant lol :p
     
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