Basilpop, the Dash subreddit moderator, does not have the temperament to be a moderator (PART 2)

[MizzyMax]

To explain it in terms you can understand:

In the computer game GTA when you shoot a civilian you get 1 "Wanted" star. When you shoot a cop you instantly get 2 "Wanted" stars. In other terms: You don't insult a moderator. And much more importantly: You don't insult someone out of the blue without prior provocation. Nothing in this message prompted you to call me or anyone "moronic". I don't care what happened elsewhere on a different topic, that's completely irrelevant. What's relevant is that the community agrees with me as the up- and downvotes of those messages speak for themself.

The fact that you repeated it in this forum only solidifies the ban even more. So yeah, enjoy your ban, you very much deserved it.

If you ever catch me ever call anyone "moronic" for no reason I will drop my mod position instantly, so good luck.

I think you are missing the point here. With me saying “You are moronic” do you think I crossed the line of no return? I fell off the deep end? That what I said was so out there, so crazy, there was no way I’d ever be able to stay within community guidelines?

Was my infraction serious? not at all.

Here’s why:

1. Was there multiple offenses made in the single post?
No

2. Multiple cuss words said?
No, not a single cuss word said.

3. Was the post personally offensive to the opposition, or life threatening?
No. This was poster did not go into making personal remarks.

4. Is this person a previous offender?
No, never even given a warning.

You are to keep the community together as a mod, and yet here you are tearing it apart. I’m done with preaching this. Hopefully this will be taken care of but I have my doubts sadly.

Signing off. -Mizzymax

 

[randomalbum]

"People who want to help" don't sit around silently FOR YEARS while Basilpop abuses his mod power because it gives him sadistic pleasure to torment innocent people in his sick little /r/dashpay playroom-dungeon.

Please don't tell me that something is being decided behind closed doors in some smoke-filled back room. That's not how FOSS works; that's not best practices and it makes the official 'Dash Is Decentralized Governance By Blockchain' slogan look like empty buzzwords.

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[MizzyMax]

can u guys stop the foul language and calling each other names
what are we all - 12 years old or what

This alone says he really hasn’t read the convos. After seeing this I went back and tried to look for foul language and name calling.

Can’t find much of any of that

 

[TroyDASH]

How many "punches" has Basilpop thrown and how much damage have they done to the community? How many 100s of Dash have been wasted on marketing that Basilpop rendered futile?
"People who want to help" don't sit around silently FOR YEARS while Basilpop abuses his mod power because it gives him sadistic pleasure to torment innocent people in his sick little /r/dashpay playroom-dungeon.

And now, true to form, you attack me and others unsatisfied with the halfhearted, perfunctory, inconsequential "we'll have a conversation" response while he rubs his inexplicable diplomatic immunity in everyone's faces, bragging about how we all know his upcoming slap on the wrist won't really change a damn thing about Dash's toxic, hyper-masculine locker room culture of bullying and cliquishness.

Please don't tell me that something is being decided behind closed doors in some smoke-filled back room.
That's not how FOSS works; that's not best practices and it makes the official 'Dash Is Decentralized Governance By Blockchain' slogan look like empty buzzwords.
We don't like it when the police investigate themselves and we don't like it when people with conflicts of interest "have a conversation" with an individual who would have gotten banned 100X over if he were not allowed the baffling, ridiculous privilege of pious hypocrisy.

I think we should afford the subreddit mod team the opportunity to come to a consensus on the issue and to present a response. This is not a "smoke-filled back room" talk, it is simply how teams operate when they are a team. The process of a team coming to a consensus on an issue is also not something that should be expected to be laid out all in the open, until the aforementioned consensus has been reached and is ready to be presented. After having received a response from the team *or* after having waited a sufficient amount of time without a response (keeping in mind that the team consists of people with all kinds of schedules and that it takes some time for all relevant things to be considered), *then* it would be appropriate to continue to the next step whatever that may be.

The reason I have limited my own comments about Macrochip himself and your specific examples, is that I want to wait for this process to continue for a bit and I want to minimize the chance that I will say something rash that might only further divide people unnecessarily. On further reflection it appears I may have erred in even responding at all to being pinged here.

Let's do something productive and have a conversation about implementing an anti-toxicity, anti-bullying Code of Conduct, something many FOSS communities find useful to keep themselves clean from toxic parasites like Basilpop.
This kind of issue will only become more important as Dash rolls out Evolution, so we need to establish a framework for healthy, productive conduct ASAP.
How about this one? https://foss-backstage.de/code-conduct
What do you like/dislike? What makes it a good/bad fit for the Dash Community?

I'll put in 1 Dash for the proposal, so only 4 people have to match me and we can get this ball rolling.

I would welcome a discussion about this but I think you are jumping the gun on a governance proposal and would recommend waiting. You can do it however you see fit though.

Macrochip's out-of-control behavior is not the only problem. We brought up this issue to all the individuals responsible. We tagged all moderators. We provided plenty of undeniable proof that he insulted 100s of individuals, just within the last 30 days. He probably insulted thousands during his "career" as the "asshole mod" (his own words!). He even showed exactly the reason why he shouldn't be a moderator right here in this post.

What do we expect?

"Dear randomalbum,
Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention. We are surprised he has gone unchecked for so long (or perhaps you knew about it all along and didn't do anything?). I can confirm he is no longer part of the moderation team for the /r/DashPay. You and everyone involved in this incident have your bans and restrictions lifted. We are also going to contact individually every single person that was mocked, ridiculed, insulted and treated unfairly and send our sincere apologies on behalf of all the Dash community. We extend these apologies do you too.
Thank you for helping us making Dash a better community.
All the best," ​

Instead, you do nothing but you deflect our valid criticism by tone policing, as Dashcoiner said.

I don't think you have given the subreddit mod team sufficient time to investigate and react to this. It's not going to work like getting a panic-next-day response from the Starbucks CEO.

 

[randomalbum]

Do you want to make the pre-proposal thread or shall I?

I have sent you a message, please find me on reddit, lets discuss a bit so we can post a nice proposal to end this once and for all.

I think we should afford the subreddit mod team the opportunity to come to a consensus on the issue and to present a response.

They had the opportunity. Here are some of their responses to all of this:

@solarguy said "his "Get off my yard!" style of moderating may not be appropriate for all circumstances.....Basilpop has shown increasing levels of restraint in response to concerns expressed from the community."
@tungfa said "u are loving this drama, don’t you"
@tungfa locked the thread.
@Macrochip said "You seem like an oversensitive SJW snowflake to me with way too thin skin to ever use any internet message board at all."

Whom should we escalate this to?

 

[TroyDASH]

I have sent you a message, please find me on reddit, lets discuss a bit so we can post a nice proposal to end this once and for all.


They had the opportunity. Here are some of their responses to all of this:

@solarguy said "his "Get off my yard!" style of moderating may not be appropriate for all circumstances.....Basilpop has shown increasing levels of restraint in response to concerns expressed from the community."
@tungfa said "u are loving this drama, don’t you"
@tungfa locked the thread.
@Macrochip said "You seem like an oversensitive SJW snowflake to me with way too thin skin to ever use any internet message board at all."

Whom should we escalate this to?

I would suggest to wait for an update from @tungfa.
From tungfa's post:

personally am getting spammed on a daily bases from multi people and outlets
example: " I am an MNO u need to this NOW as I invested x amount and this is "F" that and "F" this"
well - good on him , and yes sure - but "the sound makes the music" , the more people yell at me (example) to do things - obviously the less I do them - as I have 1 Million other things to do and will not be yelled at , can not handle fouls language and the likes, ....
polite articulations are still key as always !
"can you please"
will always get you further than:
"F'ing do it now "
many things need to be handled by Devs in the back , I am not a dev and need to wait and rely on others to do the tasks at hand - the more people yell at me (I definitely do NOT yell at the devs and "ask" them to do things .... people are traveling , having families and whatever other personal things going on - so - sometimes things take time to be sorted
please be considerate !

so
I will have a conversation with Macro/ Balsi + other Moderators/Admins about this issues vented here
suggest for everybody else to take a breather !

Basically, be patient. If this is a problem and it has been going on for years then it will not be the end of the world if we give it a week or so to see how it is responded before burning the house down. In the meantime I have no problem with talking about suggestions for improving moderation policies or community guidelines

 

[solarguy]

Give us a week. I just got back in the country.

 

[TroyDASH]

You aren't understanding our point. The larger issue here is the subreddit mods lack of response to Basilpop for many years until he got completely out of control and obviously became counterproductive to community-building efforts.

You are asking us to give the mod team more time to investigate themselves and expecting us to ignore the obvious conflicts of interest with that approach.

Rationalizing the lack of transparency doesn't fix the problems created by the resulting opacity. For example, we deserve to know exactly why previous complaints where at best ignored and at worst ridiculed. Do you see the problem with expecting honest answers to these embarrassing questions from the very people who enabled and encouraged Basilpop for so many years?

The thread is 2 days old and suddenly there is a lot of activity on this topic - I don't think it is fair to compare this with the "many years" where yes I am sure there have been many complaints, but I am not aware of one that was quite as vocally expressed and as weighed in as detailed as this one, even to the point of having dozens (or a hundred?) examples cited. If there has been then feel free to correct me, but I don't think there has been.

Re: conflict of interest. I acknowledge that there is a possible conflict of interest, but not one that would be severe enough to warrant not giving the team an opportunity to actually speak for themselves after coming to a consensus. The extent of the conflict of interest would be possible embarrassment as you said, but I have every reason to believe that the members of the mod team are aligned with Dash and value the needs of the Dash community more than they care about potentially needing to change a policy or issue an apology. If the community does not like the consensus that the team reaches, then that is another matter and can be addressed after we know what the consensus is.

I think it's perfectly fine to ask about the nature of previous complaints and what has happened in the past.

Why do you insist on appealing for patience and more delay tactics from the same team that has failed to act for so long? How does that make sense to you? Are you still stuck back in the past, myopically and naively believing that Basilpop was the entire extent of the problem and not merely the visible tip of a huge iceberg?

I don't know the answer to these questions because (1) I am not intimately familiar with the previous complaints and (2) I simply don't know the answer as to why the mod team has or hasn't done things. The mod team will need to speak for themselves, which I think we should give them an opportunity to do.

Throwing Basilpop under the bus doesn't actually fix the root problems, which are the lack of community members willing to stand up to such a bully and the lack of processes by which those upstanding members of the community may hold accountable toxic bullies.

More community engagement to help make the Dash community a better place in all forums, is always a good thing.

Dash needed a Code of Conduct years ago. The lack of a CoC to enforce allowed the Basilpop problem to fester and poison our subreddit, which was one of the most (if not the single most) potentially valuable piece of Dash community real estate on the internet.

I'm not opposed at all to a code of conduct or something of the sort. Currently however, the subreddit rules are the closest thing there is to a "code of conduct" for that area. If you take the subreddit rules as a standalone document on its own, do you think there is a problem with how the policy is defined, or the enforcement of it? If you ask any of the moderators on Discord they will tell you I can be a policy wonk and I love talking about establishing correct policies and procedures for things. We've had problems burn us in the past in more ways than one, because of not having established certain policies/procedures, imo. So I welcome the discussion.

You guys really shat the bed by ganging up to protect Basilpop at the cost of turning a subreddit that should be gaining traffic at a rate competitive with its peer group into a toxic ghost town.
And yet you expect us to continue sitting around doing nothing, like the r/dashpay mods who watched or helped this slow-motion trainwreck unfold?

I'm not sure who is ganging up on who? There have actually been very few statements in these threads that have been in Macrochip's defense, compared to the extremely high number of statements that have been critical of him. As you have criticized me for, most of my statements in this thread have not pertained directly to Macrochip - it seems to me that Macrochip has been his own biggest defender on this thread, going against several people who are critical.

Let's not just do more of the same and expect different results. Please support adoption of a CoC ASAP. (YES ASAP. NO, NOT AFTER BP'S ENABLERS GET AROUND TO WRITING UP A LONGWINDED SELF-PITYING EXCUSE FOR HIS TOXICITY AND RATIONALIZE THEIR DECISION TO GIVE HIM ANOTHER CHANCE).

This is a great opportunity to turn Basilpop's toxicity and the mod's failures into a learning experience by taking our new CoC out for a test drive.
As a rich MNO, surely you can spare a single Dash to help get the proposal listed...

I'm not sure if this needs to go to the MN-level to approve something but if there is a good CoC drafted and I think it would be good for Dash then I would vote for the proposal.

 

[randomalbum]

The thread is 2 days old and suddenly there is a lot of activity on this topic - I don't think it is fair to compare this with the "many years"

Yes it absolutely is. Because this has been happening for many years. Do you want me to prove it to you? All one has to do is check the history of his posts on reddit.

I'm not sure if this needs to go to the MN-level to approve something but if there is a good CoC drafted and I think it would be good for Dash then I would vote for the proposal.

We will take it to MN-level. What has uncovered here was truly horrible, and the reactions of the subreddit mods and Dash's Inner Circle was even worse. You don't get to enable an out-of-control sadistic psychopath and not expect any consequence. I am sure plenty of MNO are going to be disgusted by what they read here, and even more by the lack of any meaningful action by the subreddit mod team.

 

[TroyDASH]

Yes it absolutely is. Because this has been happening for many years. Do you want me to prove it to you? All one has to do is check the history of his posts on reddit.

There is no way you can claim that there has been as much activity on this topic in the last year as there has been in the last 2 days. I'm not talking about Macrochip, I'm talking about how much the community is talking about Macrochip. How many dash forum topics have been created on this subject? I certainly have not been personally asked to weigh in on this subject any time before 2 days ago. It has not been the subject of an ongoing chat in our Discord channel at any time this whole year until yesterday.

We will take it to MN-level. What has uncovered here was truly horrible, and the reactions of the subreddit mods and Dash's Inner Circle was even worse. You don't get to enable an out-of-control sadistic psychopath and not expect any consequence. I am sure plenty of MNO are going to be disgusted by what they read here, and even more by the lack of any meaningful action by the subreddit mod team.

What is this "inner circle" you are referring to? Some people say the MNOs are the inner circle lol

 

[TroyDASH]

You don't get to enable an out-of-control sadistic psychopath and not expect any consequence.

It is ironic that you are demanding professionalism from others when you say things like this.

 

[randomalbum]

It is ironic that you are demanding professionalism from others when you say things like this.

You keeping adding words to my mouth. I guess this will be the 3rd or 4th time you will have to retract a comment. Even if that was true, I can demand professionalism on the Dash subreddit even if if I don't hold myself to a professional standard. One thing has nothing to do with the other. You're better than this Troy, stop majoring on minor things.

It's also interesting how you're so quick to police my tone but doesn't say anything about one of your moderators doing much worse to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of innocent members of the dash subreddit community. Priorities ?

There is no way you can claim that there has been as much activity on this topic in the last year as there has been in the last 2 days. I'm not talking about Macrochip, I'm talking about how much the community is talking about Macrochip.

I obviously am not making this claim. What was uncovered has been happening for many years and this is why everyone involved should be held responsible. It would have been their job to report your out of control colleague / coworker / teammate that is just breaking all the rules and doing as he pleases.

It was not my job to uncover all the evidence against macrochip. I have spend hours of my time compiling proof and also many hours of my time responding to messages here. Are you paying me? Am I being paid by anyone at Dash? No, I'm doing this out of altruism, to help the community.

You seem to be a very nice guy, reasonable and with good character. We would probably get along very well. I want you to know this is nothing personal: so far you haven't been part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Until you stop policing our tone and start addressing the real issues we brought up, the elephant in the room, you will continue to be part of the problem.

 

[TroyDASH]

You keeping adding words to my mouth. I guess this will be the 3rd or 4th time you will have to retract a comment. Even if that was true, I can demand professionalism on the Dash subreddit even if if I don't hold myself to a professional standard. One thing has nothing to do with the other. You're better than this Troy, stop majoring on minor things.

It's also interesting how you're so quick to police my tone but doesn't say anything about one of your moderators doing much worse to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of innocent members of the dash subreddit community. Priorities ?

I obviously am not making this claim. What was uncovered has been happening for many years and this is why everyone involved should be held responsible. It would have been their job to report your out of control colleague / coworker / teammate that is just breaking all the rules and doing as he pleases.

It was not my job to uncover all the evidence against macrochip. I have spend hours of my time compiling proof and also many hours of my time responding to messages here. Are you paying me? Am I being paid by anyone at Dash? No, I'm doing this out of altruism, to help the community.

You seem to be a very nice guy, reasonable and with good character. We would probably get along very well. I want you to know this is nothing personal: so far you haven't been part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Until you stop policing our tone and start addressing the real issues we brought up, the elephant in the room, you will continue to be part of the problem.

You did not use the word 'professionalism', but the example apology/statement you cited as what you would like to hear is exactly that.

Likewise, I do not consider this to be personal either.

I've already explained why I have not commented on Macrochip specifically right now. If you won't accept my reason, there's nothing else I can say. When the mod team responds in a more official way then I will comment on whether or not I agree with their assessment.

 

[Keith M]

Why are you surprised that complete nobodies in this community get no leeway while long timers do?

There's that fear/hate of new users that I spoke about, in the thread that got locked for no reason. Not every single new person is there to troll. Not every user instantly knows every single technical detail about Dash. How do you expect Dash to proliferate if new users are the enemy?

Is it different anywhere else?

Yes, any non-cult like organisation is typically welcoming of new users. This includes people who want their product/offering to be adopted and grow.

That said, the "LSDog" encounter above. I can understand that being a ban. (Though unlike myself who remained civil in the face of your insults, I assume this LSDog guy was just at the point where he was sick of being insulted and fired back).

In the meantime, good luck with continuing to sabotage the Dash community.

Regards,
Keith

Oh, and for the other moderators here. I know exactly the difficulty you are currently facing. I was once a moderator in a group with this exact same situation. One moderator, who was a smart guy, like I think Macrochip/Basilpop is, would often treat people like shit and break all the group rules. We would continuously (as moderators) be called out on why this moderator was exempt from the group rules. Behind the scenes we tried to discuss it with him and each time he would promise to do better, but it never happened. Ultimately it caused an irreparable rift in the group. I didn't have a lot invested in the group so it was no big deal. I can't imagine the same applies here.

 

[mikebam]

If you want a clear example of a moderator / administrator who does not contribute anything to the discussion, who is not willing to admit their mistakes, who does nothing to resolve the problem and who works in a counter-productive way to increase conflict, look no further than this guy @tungfa.

Notice how similar @tungfa 's style of communication is to @Macrochip 's. In just two messages he mistakenly accused everyone of using foul language (no one did that), of calling each other names (it was his guy doing it), of being 12 year olds, and of loving drama.

People like @tungfa and @Macrochip have no business moderating a community. They don't have empathy, don't have the skills, the patience or the discipline. Especially if doing this for free. If you all value their contributions, then assign them to roles where they don't have to deal with users, moderate a community or de-escalate conflicts.

can u guys stop the foul language and calling each other names what are we all - 12 years old or what

u are loving this drama, don’t you !

Ps: I'm sure someone will make a comment about my style of communication ("derp but you are not polite, derp"), so I'll answer it in advance: I am not a moderator here or on reddit, @tungfa and @Macrochip are.

 

[randomalbum]

We want to put down a proposal for the masternodes to vote.

Objectives:

a) Fair penalties for those involved, showing that Dash is a true community for all, not just a place for the "Inner Circle".
b) Restore the perception of friendliness, openness, acceptance and professionalism on r/dashpay.
c) Agree on a formal Code of Conduct (CoC) that will be enforced on everyone, regardless of position.
d) Agree on a formal process to enforce the Code of Conduct (CoC) and resolve inevitable conflicts.

Actions:

a) Fair penalties for those involved and restitution for those unfairly treated, showing that Dash is a true community for all, not just a place for the "Inner Circle".
a.1 - Permanent ban Macrochip / Basilpop from r/dashpay for having broken every reasonable code of ethics / conduct and the forum rules, hundreds of times.
a.2 - Remove moderating privileges from @tungfa and @solarguy on r/dashpay once c.1 item is in place. They have enabled all the sadistic actions by Macrochip either by naiveness, malevolence, ignorance, or incompetence.

b) Agree on a formal Code of Conduct that will be enforced on everyone that participates on our community at r/dashpay, regardless of position.
b.1 - Suggestion for r/DashPay official CoC: http://berlincodeofconduct.org/
b.2 - CoC will be enforced on everyone that *participates in*, not in all "members of" the community. The subjective definition of a moderator no longer will be used to decide who is or isn't a member of our community and no more discrimination towards new users.

c) Restore the professionalism and friendliness, openness, and acceptance on r/dashpay.
c.1 - Request Dash Core Group to hire a professional Community Resource Coordinaor to be responsible for r/dashpay.
c.2 - Her role will be to manage the community, foster healthy discussions, and create a friendly space opened to all ideas related to Dash. Not insult, harass, ridicule, or force his views on the community.
c.3 - Contact all reddit users that where insulted, harassed, mocked, ridiculed or unfairly banned by Macroship / Basilpop. Mention that this moderator has been banned and offer full apology, on behalf of the Dash community, and on behalf of the new Community Manager.

d) Agree on a formal process to enforce the Code of Conduct (CoC) and resolve inevitable conflicts.
[I need your help on this. We need to elaborate something like 1st offence warning, 2nd offence harsh warning, 3rd offence 24h ban, 4th ofence 72h ban etc. This will reset every 60 days or something, because people change and not everyone has to be a dick forever. Let's try to do a process where the moderator doesn't have to use his subjective criteria when deciding what to do.]

 

[solarguy]

If you want a clear example of a moderator / administrator who does not contribute anything to the discussion, who is not willing to admit their mistakes, who does nothing to resolve the problem and who works in a counter-productive way to increase conflict, look no further than this guy @tungfa.

Notice how similar @tungfa 's style of communication is to @Macrochip 's. In just two messages he mistakenly accused everyone of using foul language (no one did that), of calling each other names (it was his guy doing it), of being 12 year olds, and of loving drama.

People like @tungfa and @Macrochip have no business moderating a community. They don't have empathy, don't have the skills, the patience or the discipline. Especially if doing this for free. If you all value their contributions, then assign them to roles where they don't have to deal with users, moderate a community or de-escalate conflicts.





Ps: I'm sure someone will make a comment about my style of communication ("derp but you are not polite, derp"), so I'll answer it in advance: I am not a moderator here or on reddit, @tungfa and @Macrochip are.

And assuming the proposal goes forward and is approved, you agree to behave on all the Dash forums with, " friendliness, openness, acceptance and professionalism on r/dashpay." ? So, no vulgarity, no personal attacks?

 

[TroyDASH]

And assuming the proposal goes forward and is approved, you agree to behave on all the Dash forums with, " friendliness, openness, acceptance and professionalism on r/dashpay." ? So, no vulgarity, no personal attacks?

It might not matter if he agreed - if he disagreed and acted in a way that was against the rules then there would be mod action taken to discourage or stop the behavior

 

[randomalbum]

And assuming the proposal goes forward and is approved, you agree to behave on all the Dash forums with, " friendliness, openness, acceptance and professionalism on r/dashpay." ? So, no vulgarity, no personal attacks?

Is there anything you do not agree with the proposal? Are you going to help build a better community or continue to make irrelevant comments on the most unimportant issues?

 

[randomalbum]

I've been having a chat with @TroyDASH privately and have decided to leave this issue in his hands now. He has given me constructive criticism on our proposal and how to ensure it passes and I believe he is in a much better position to resolve the situation than I am.

I will no longer be taking any action and I look forward to seeing the results @TroyDASH can achieve.

Thank you.