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Dash "stock split"

I think one of the main reason why people are interested in crypto-currency is the limited supply, meaning they do look at the total supply of a coin...

If you’re a speculator/investor/techie/cryptoanarchist, that is.

I count myself among the techies, but even I don't want to be paying 0.0023567 DASH for a cup of coffee. Showing its fiat value to me is like adding insult to injury. That’s what the cryptomasochists want for us, no?

At the end of the day, if this problem isn't solved, we’re still relying on fiat, not replacing it altogether. That's because, with a limited supply of coins, the value will continue to rise. Eventually, we’ll be dealing with 6, or 7 decimal places just to come to an equivalent of today’s dollar or euro or pound.
 
I think one of the main reason why people are interested in crypto-currency is the limited supply, meaning they do look at the total supply of a coin...
1. I was thinking lately about Satoshis brilliant idea to make only 21 million "coins".
It was great because 21 million (21,000,000) is good and comprehensive, by most people, number.
In common sense coin is something nondivisible and 21 million (21,000,000) gives also some good feeling of scarcity.
How would people react if they knew that true number of coins supply in bitcoin is 2,100,000,000,000,000 instead of 21,000,000? :)
(or 1,800,000,000,000,000 for Dash instead of commonly advertised 18,000,000 )

"coin" = 100,000,000 common sense coins.

2. We do not necessary have to increase supply.
Would it bother you to have 1000.00000 dash (after hypothetical 3 place decimal shift) on your i.e paper wallet, instead of 1.00000000 dash now?

Most people in crypto businesses are geeks. It would make no difference for them, but it would make great difference in rise of the UX.

(*note: In this case I use "." as a decimal place indicator. In some countries comma "," serves this purpose. I.e. 2,34zł for this mythical coffee)
 
1. I was thinking lately about Satoshis brilliant idea to make only 21 million "coins".
It was great because 21 million (21,000,000) is good and comprehensive, by most people, number.
In common sense coin is something nondivisible and 21 million (21,000,000) gives also some good feeling of scarcity.
How would people react if they knew that true number of coins supply in bitcoin is 2,100,000,000,000,000 instead of 21,000,000? :)
(or 1,800,000,000,000,000 for Dash instead of commonly advertised 18,000,000 )

"coin" = 100,000,000 common sense coins.

2. We do not necessary have to increase supply.
Would it bother you to have 1000.00000 dash (after hypothetical 3 place decimal shift) on your i.e paper wallet, instead of 1.00000000 dash now?

Most people in crypto businesses are geeks. It would make no difference for them, but it would make great difference in rise of the UX.

(*note: In this case I use "." as a decimal place indicator. In some countries comma "," serves this purpose. I.e. 2,34zł for this mythical coffee)

Friend, I see that you're a Masternode Operator. Is there anything you can do to help further along some kind of R&D proposal to work this issue out?
 
I would be more than happy to help, although I'm not a pro in this field.

First we have to make good preproposal and post it here: https://www.dash.org/forum/topic/pre-budget-proposal-discussions.93/
Justification for money from treasury is very important. Fresh users are less trusted, so it's worth considering to give some initial work first, and claim reward later. If work is good quality, there should be no problem in refund.
I, as a MN owner, would like to see why this topic should bee researched. How results can be beneficial to dash, and so on..
(It is summer holiday, so we may not get much response in this period of time.)

Other idea is to place preproposal with option to fund the initial 5 dash proposal fee. I think that dashtreasury.org was describing similar system to crowdfund this, almost, 1000$ fee.

Later on I can talk to my few MN operator friends, to vote on this proposal, as many of them have similar concerns on this decimal point issue as you and me.

If you @Andric Tham have any other ideas what I can do, please write.

================================

I was seriously thinking to push it further myself, by letting research done on one of universities in my town, but after this:
I really wish we could do this, but after hashing it out, it would be far too risky. There are so many integrations with other companies now, and getting everyone to upgrade, and avoiding confusion.... the time is over for such a big change. Eventually, we will come up with another solution, but for now, the wallet will show denominations in your choice of currency such as USD, Euro Pound, etc... spreading out to as many currencies as possible. The option is still there to choose mDash (Dots) or Duffs in the future when fiat money is no longer dominant or around.

Anyway, it simply isn't as easy as moving a decimal point and if people lose money because of this, that would be truly devastating. Even if we tried this, to make sure everyone was on board and that it happened smoothly, it would require more developers, marketers, etc... to pull it off. It would take away from Evolution otherwise, and we haven't even filled the Evolution jobs as it is.

I want you to know that the core team, especially Ryan, really understands the usability issue, and considered this deeply. They didn't dismiss it out of hand. After much discussion, it was realized that this was simply too risky, and the team too small to make it happen, and they will pursue other avenues to make Dash more understandable and usable to the public.
.. i lost part of my enthusiasm.

I would be more than thankful, if we could get more complex response from the CoreTeam. (They are working hard on other things, so I understand they may by short on time)
Something similar to this: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/an-open-letter-from-evan-and-ryan-regarding-dash-marketing.15537/
..would be an example of serious response.

Have you @Andric Tham talked to head of UX, Chuck, from core team?
What specific questions on this issue would you like to ask CoreTeam, if you could?
Maybe it is only not publicly stated, and they "pursue other avenues to make Dash more understandable and usable to the public", as we speak. (Similar to marketing work being done in CoreTeam, but not properly publicly announced until https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/an-open-letter-from-evan-and-ryan-regarding-dash-marketing.15537/ )

I would like to know Cores thoughts on this, but don't know how to reach them.
It may be considered desperate, but maybe, in break, you @Chuck Williams , @0xfff , @j0shua , @Ryan Taylor , @AndyDark , @eduffield222 , and others qualified, could elaborate more on this topic?
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-stock-split.9611/page-4#post-132507
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-stock-split.9611/page-4#post-132732
Thank you in advance.
 
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I see both sides of the argument and personally I see doing a full on currency change is highly extreme as dash core has essentially already said. But more importantly, I also share the views of most people on this forum in that, spending 0.02142857143 dash ($3 USD) on a jar of pickles is highly confusing, even more so if you had no USD value to compare it to. Imagine trying to see the price of something in a store when you can't simply look and say "man! look at that, $2 a jar! that is a great deal!" as many have said further up in the thread.

if anyone can go to a store that's written entirely in dash and half the items are double the price and the other half normal and not buy a single over priced item then they need an award of some sort. but anyone can do this if its easy to understand like, lets say USD

what I purpose that we do is come to an agreement and then write a preproposal on that agreement that we come to (you could even start a poll on what everyone in this thread agrees on)

so far we have about 3 ways to go about this, and we can all see that we do need a change of some sort so here we go:

Do nothing

pros
  • we don't risk any huge change in value
  • any company that uses dash doesn't have to change how they do business
  • any traders, exchanges, and normal people don't have to rethink what they have been doing for months now
cons
  • makes it extremely hard for anyone to get their head around
  • makes dash more "exclusive" and less like what dash wants, digital cash, something simple that anyone can use
  • more like bitcoin which currently is in its current state, useless for anyone that just wants to buy a coffee

Move the real decimal three or two places
such as a stock split

pros
  • highly usable
  • makes more people interested
  • gets us out of trying to use parts of one to try to buy simple things
cons
  • its highly difficult and dangerous to change a currency like this
  • you would have a majority (I assume) in the community but it would be a huge debate and you might lose people
  • banks, businesses, exchanges, everyone would be in a state of panic like they are with bitcoin for august 1st


Adding names for all divisions and moving the default to one of thos
such as making 1/10 of a dash a decadash, etc.
or you could even make the change above, and then have one dash be a "kilodash" or something

pros
  • highly usable
  • gets more people into dash and makes it seem like more
  • doesn't hurt huge a company that already does huge dash transactions
cons
  • its still hard to read conversions
  • you need the community to switch to using the new names
  • it doesn't fix the issue, just makes it easier to wrap your head around when using the wallet

then I also agree to put a conversion in the wallet if we do anything to assist people trying to use it, so they are not confused as much (but that's not really a solution to the issue at hand)

If someone could post a poll or a link to one we might see what we want to prepropose before going foreword with any mass study on solutions
--thank you for your time--
 
I see both sides of the argument and personally I see doing a full on currency change is highly extreme as dash core has essentially already said. But more importantly, I also share the views of most people on this forum in that, spending 0.02142857143 dash ($3 USD) on a jar of pickles is highly confusing, even more so if you had no USD value to compare it to. Imagine trying to see the price of something in a store when you can't simply look and say "man! look at that, $2 a jar! that is a great deal!" as many have said further up in the thread.

if anyone can go to a store that's written entirely in dash and half the items are double the price and the other half normal and not buy a single over priced item then they need an award of some sort. but anyone can do this if its easy to understand like, lets say USD

what I purpose that we do is come to an agreement and then write a preproposal on that agreement that we come to (you could even start a poll on what everyone in this thread agrees on)

so far we have about 3 ways to go about this, and we can all see that we do need a change of some sort so here we go:

Do nothing

pros
  • we don't risk any huge change in value
  • any company that uses dash doesn't have to change how they do business
  • any traders, exchanges, and normal people don't have to rethink what they have been doing for months now
cons
  • makes it extremely hard for anyone to get their head around
  • makes dash more "exclusive" and less like what dash wants, digital cash, something simple that anyone can use
  • more like bitcoin which currently is in its current state, useless for anyone that just wants to buy a coffee

Move the real decimal three or two places
such as a stock split

pros
  • highly usable
  • makes more people interested
  • gets us out of trying to use parts of one to try to buy simple things
cons
  • its highly difficult and dangerous to change a currency like this
  • you would have a majority (I assume) in the community but it would be a huge debate and you might lose people
  • banks, businesses, exchanges, everyone would be in a state of panic like they are with bitcoin for august 1st


Adding names for all divisions and moving the default to one of thos
such as making 1/10 of a dash a decadash, etc.
or you could even make the change above, and then have one dash be a "kilodash" or something

pros
  • highly usable
  • gets more people into dash and makes it seem like more
  • doesn't hurt huge a company that already does huge dash transactions
cons
  • its still hard to read conversions
  • you need the community to switch to using the new names
  • it doesn't fix the issue, just makes it easier to wrap your head around when using the wallet

then I also agree to put a conversion in the wallet if we do anything to assist people trying to use it, so they are not confused as much (but that's not really a solution to the issue at hand)

If someone could post a poll or a link to one we might see what we want to prepropose before going foreword with any mass study on solutions
--thank you for your time--

The way I see it, the community only needs to agree on what the smallest denomination of the currency is called (like Ether’s wei or Bitcoin’s satoshi), and make that the default interface on any merchant or consumer facing application. Give it a corresponding symbol ($, ¥, etc.) and make sure it’s a Unicode symbol so it can be easily encoded and printed anywhere.

The underlying assumption here is that humans parse whole numbers more easily than we do floating point numbers. This can be verified with an ethnographic research study, should the core team doubt this nugget of “common sense”.

DASH (the largest unit with a ticker symbol) can always be traded as an asset, mined by miners, etc.

The smallest unit should not be associated with the ticker symbol but treated like a commodity currency with an easy to parse symbol.

Separating DASH the cryptoasset and DASH the cryptocurrency is almost a no-brainer.

Investors and traders are needed to ensure a continually appreciating currency, and miners and masternodes secure the network. But merchants and users actually *use* the currency, and it’s time we start thinking about the use case.

Best practices within the crypto community will not help us here, this is entirely new territory.
 
meritocracy = elitism in the twisted mind of a snowflake

Hit any more more decent, productive people with you bike lock lately?
 
Another alternative to solving this is building an entirely new currency as an application on top of DASH itself, whose value is calculated on-the-fly and used only for cash transactions.

Like Ether’s concept of gas, it decouples its value from the value of the cryptoasset. This makes the currency immune from market fluctuations and easier to transact, when multiple parties can be reasonably sure that the values they are agreeing to transact will be worth what they think it’s worth, in relative terms.
 
The way I see it, decoupling DASH the cryptoasset from DASH the cryptocurrency is a crucial decision that will determine whether it is usable as digital cash in regular consumer-merchant transactions, or not.

If DASH does not attempt to solve this problem, a fork or an alternative currency might come along and do so, suitably threatening our place in the top 10 and perhaps even upending Bitcoin as the “default” cryptocurrency.
 
we already have a duff which is the smallest currency dash can be at, is that what you were asking for?

That may be what I’m asking, but does a “duff” currently have a corresponding Unicode symbol, and is it used as the default denomination in DASH wallets?

Because if not, it’s an inferior currency interface compared to fiat currencies.
 
no it is not, you can change it to duff in the wallet though which means its implemented, but i do not think there is any current use and thus no symbol for it

its just there
 
no it is not, you can change it to duff in the wallet though which means its implemented, but i do not think there is any current use and thus no symbol for it

its just there

Ah. Well there you go. That’s something that the DASH core team can start to do, to use Duff as the default currency, design everything around it, choose a suitable Unicode symbol, and start pushing it forward with merchant/consumer outreach. Make the transition as easy as possible for merchants and consumer.

And for the rest of us miners / techies everything remains as is. Of course that still doesn’t solve the fluctuation problem.

That could be a possible proposal.
 
I agree, we just need someone to make first a preproposal and find a symbol that matches with dash and then see how the community feels about it
 
People need analogs to what they already use.

We can promote DASH as the ewallet service and payment gateway. DASH has a corresponding cryptoasset that investors and traders care about, just like Apple has AAPL.

To regular humans, DASH is just like PayPal or their bank app, except DASH issues its own world currency that makes cross border transactions low-fee. That currency is Duff. The value of which is currently pegged to DASH the cryptoasset, but can later be decoupled should market fluctuations prove to be a risk area.
 
I agree, we just need someone to make first a preproposal and find a symbol that matches with dash and then see how the community feels about it

Sounds good. Do you need to be a masternode operator to write a preproposal? I’m not super familiar with the process.

I can help with finding a suitable symbol for Duffs, maybe the rest of us can suggest, and we can vote on it.
 
you can google some details and look at the forum on how to do it, but i think we should do research first on the true effect of switching to something like duff or mdash or µdash. like friend was saying. if any change was to happen we need concrete evidence that it helps someone other then ourselves, enough to be a real change that is needed to promote dash.
 
you can google some details and look at the forum on how to do it, but i think we should do research first on the true effect of switching to something like duff or mdash or µdash. like friend was saying. if any change was to happen we need concrete evidence that it helps someone other then ourselves, enough to be a real change that is needed to promote dash.

Yes, as I was also saying, we might need to conduct ethnographic research as part of the proposal (should “common sense” not prevail), as that would require funding to be set aside for hiring user experience researchers (on a contract or volunteer basis) and as incentives for recruiting participants.
 
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