Will mining Dash become profitable again?

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Dandy

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If some miners leave, the difficulty will drop and the profitability for the miners that are left will rise.
It's simple supply and demand.
 

Noel Morris

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If I have the knowledge to fork this Dash ill do it! and I'll probably be loved by Dash Miners. Dash followers will move to the new Dash Fork with a better longevity mining and payment system.
 

demo

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If I have the knowledge to fork this Dash ill do it! and I'll probably be loved by Dash Miners. Dash followers will move to the new Dash Fork with a better longevity mining and payment system.
Lets discover this knowledge, here in this very thread.
 

Dandy

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Go ahead. It's your right, of course.
I'm just curious what exactly would you change in that forked coin, so it would be more profitable for the miners?
 

Checkerama

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If some miners leave, the difficulty will drop and the profitability for the miners that are left will rise.
It's simple supply and demand.
True, but not long term - difficulty drops, profits will rise, miners rejoin, profits go down as fast as they went up. It's going to be a wave of this kind of movement until either a new x11 coin is prompted up on the same level as DASH or difficulty calculations are reworked to accommodate higher hashrates that it currently holds.
 
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demo

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If some miners leave, the difficulty will drop and the profitability for the miners that are left will rise.
It's simple supply and demand.
Not only the miners are frustrated with the MNO's government. Also the stake holders are. And the proposal makers are also. Not to mention the new dash generation.

MNOs are only 100-200 people, while the miners, the stake holders, the proposal makers, the new dash generation, they are a lot lot more.

Take also into account that in the new hard forked Dash, the money the MNOs hold can be confiscated or taxed by the rest actors.

So if this revolution starts, MNOs will be left alone, with a coin that has no value, because very few people will believe in it. So the MNOs will be forced to either negotiate, or die.
 
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Noel Morris

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If some miners leave, the difficulty will drop and the profitability for the miners that are left will rise.
It's simple supply and demand.
But I think it doesn't solve the problem at hand, miners will never grow.a simple 1 TH/ miners dead already. it has to be future proof system
 

Dandy

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Not only the miners are frustrated with the MNO's government. Also the stake holders are.
MNO are only 100-200 people, while the miners and the stake holders are a lot lot more.
So if this revolution starts, MNOs will be left alone, with a coin that has no value, because very few people will believe in it.
So they will negotiate.
Considering that MNOs hold more than 50% of the coins in circulation, they are the biggest stake holders.

But I think it doesn't solve the problem at hand, miners will never grow.a simple 1 TH/ miners dead already. it has to be future proof system
It is future proof. When mining is profitable, more miners will come. When it's not, miners will leave. It's how it's supposed to work.
 

Noel Morris

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I'm starting to understand why you call miners idiots then lol - can't imagine any of them trying to start a new cryptocurrency before they just join another network.
Demo - We're not saying miners community imposing their will, you said that you acting like politician with no sense at all
 

Checkerama

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Go ahead. It's your right, of course.
I'm just curious what exactly would you change in that forked coin, so it would be more profitable for the miners?
If I could imagine, it would be less incentive to hold a MNO - or at least one that fluctuates based on the price of maintaining one. So no 45/45/10, but possibly 15/75/10. It'll solve the revolving door problem DASH has from early crypto adopters that sit on the required circulating supply of the coin and begins to show actual value of the network so investors can assess the risk of buying into it by introducing true liquidity and demand for the COIN

Considering that MNOs hold more than 50% of the coins in circulation, they are the biggest stake holders.
And this isn't a problem for you? This isn't a stock, so forget using the "Stakeholder" logic. It's a currency. Currency undercirculated = heavy deflationary undertones, leaving actual traders of it to move to more guaranteed fluidity networks. For the future of DASH, its important to attract investors that actually have the fiat volumes necessary to invest into these networks.

This is one of the most highly counterproductive mechanisms DASH currently has in order to attract the high risk investors necessary to send DASH booming. It's a very predictable currency, with no appeal towards supply/demand necessities. I can predict how this economy works without needing analysis - the more DASH is bought, the higher the MNO number grows, which increases the price due to locked in currency (and NOT because of pure supply/demand), rinse, repeat. So really, its a chicken game between MNOs and no one else - who will be the firsts to dump at DASH's ATH's and eat up the fat profits?

It is future proof. When mining is profitable, more miners will come. When it's not, miners will leave. It's how it's supposed to work.
I'll agree to that, but I think, as I've said before, the advocacy of miners within a community is highly undervalued - miners generally outnumber MNOs, and they are, really, the local advocates for the currency that they mine. With these nasty mining difficulty calculations, you won't get past a few thousand advocates in the community, max.
 
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Dandy

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Miners vote with their hashing power.
You could lower the MNO reward, but then a big number of MNOs would probably sell off their holdings and drop the price at least 50%. Then you would again be where you started, mining would be unprofitable.

Also, when MNO requirements raise sharply after the Evolution update, without proper reward to pay for the costs, the network would die.
 

Noel Morris

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Considering that MNOs hold more than 50% of the coins in circulation, they are the biggest stake holders.

It is future proof. When mining is profitable, more miners will come. When it's not, miners will leave. It's how it's supposed to work.[/QUOTE
the problem is not future proof for current miners and newcomers
 

Dandy

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The idea is to raise the value of Dash until mining is profitable again.
Can someone of you miners make a calculation what price of Dash would that be?
 

Noel Morris

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If I could imagine, it would be less incentive to hold a MNO - or at least one that fluctuates based on the price of maintaining one. So no 45/45/10, but possibly 15/75/10. It'll solve the revolving door problem DASH has from early crypto adopters that sit on the required circulating supply of the coin and begins to show actual value of the network so investors can assess the risk of buying into it by introducing true liquidity and demand for the COIN



And this isn't a problem for you? This isn't a stock, so forget using the "Stakeholder" logic. It's a currency. Currency undercirculated = heavy deflationary undertones, leaving actual traders of it to move to more guaranteed fluidity networks. For the future of DASH, its important to attract investors that actually have the fiat volumes necessary to invest into these networks.

This is one of the most highly counterproductive mechanisms DASH currently has in order to attract the high risk investors necessary to send DASH booming. It's a very predictable currency, with no appeal towards supply/demand necessities. I can predict how this economy works without needing analysis - the more DASH is bought, the higher the MNO number grows, which increases the price due to locked in currency (and NOT because of pure supply/demand), rinse, repeat. So really, its a chicken game between MNOs and no one else - who will be the firsts to dump at DASH's ATH's and eat up the fat profits?



I'll agree to that, but I think, as I've said before, the advocacy of miners within a community is highly undervalued - miners generally outnumber MNOs, and they are, really, the local advocates for the currency that they mine. With these nasty mining difficulty calculations, you won't get past a few thousand advocates in the community, max.
Agreed!
 

demo

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Considering that MNOs hold more than 50% of the coins in circulation, they are the biggest stake holders.
Although MNOs are stake holders, they do not belong to the stake holders class, but to the vote holders class.

I told you, in a Dash fork, the money of the MNOs could be taxed or confiscated. I mean, why 50% of the dash money is uncirculated and locked into MNOs safes? This is tragic, for the Dash economy and the Dash community in general.

In a dash fork, the MNO colateral fee could also be adapively voted to be lower than 1000 Dash.
 
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Checkerama

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The idea is to raise the value of Dash until mining is profitable again.
Can someone of you miners make a calculation what price of Dash would that be?
Well anyone can argue its currently profitable now if you are mining in China or Ireland. We have to define profitability then. Long term, it doesn't matter what price it is, it will always be unprofitable for small time miners who arent in cheap electricity areas of the world.

I say this because we have to consider continued increase in mining hashrate, people who are holding D3s and recently turned them off turning them back on, and any future ASIC creations later on adding to the network. A similar 3 month dump of ASICs by Bitmain would again increase difficulty by x30.

Short term, it would need to increase fourfold to ~$2500 to return half of what Bitcoin is offering, and ~$5000 for it to constitute any meaningful returns compared to Bitcoin in the next few months with current difficulty and ASIC dump.
 

Dandy

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I don't get the "undercirculated" argument. Cryptocurrencies are highly divisible. There is no lack of currency for anyone that wants to buy it.
Anyone that really wants to buy and use Dash is already doing so. Raising the supply of coins on the market would just drop the price sharply.

Although stakeholders, they do not belong to the stakeholders class, but to the vote holders class.
I told you, in the new Dash fork, the money of the MNOs could be taxed or confiscated.
I mean, why 50% of the dash money uncirculated? This is tragic!
Well, I certainly wouldn't invest in that kind of coin. I'm pretty sure many others wouldn't either.
You are welcome to make one, of course. Then see how it would fare.

Well anyone can argue its currently profitable now if you are mining in China or Ireland. We have to define profitability then. Long term, it doesn't matter what price it is, it will always be unprofitable for small time miners who arent in cheap electricity areas of the world. Short term, it would need to increase fourfold to ~$2500 to return half of what Bitcoin is offering, and ~$5000 for it to constitute any meaningful returns compared to Bitcoin in the next few months with current difficulty and ASIC dump.
I think that is achievable in the next 5-6 months, maybe even sooner.
 

demo

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Well anyone can argue its currently profitable now if you are mining in China or Ireland. We have to define profitability then. Long term, it doesn't matter what price it is, it will always be unprofitable for small time miners who arent in cheap electricity areas of the world.

I say this because we have to consider continued increase in mining hashrate, people who are holding D3s and recently turned them off turning them back on, and any future ASIC creations later on adding to the network. A similar 3 month dump of ASICs by Bitmain would again increase difficulty by x30.

Short term, it would need to increase fourfold to ~$2500 to return half of what Bitcoin is offering, and ~$5000 for it to constitute any meaningful returns compared to Bitcoin in the next few months with current difficulty and ASIC dump.
Could you please tell us what part of the code that refers to mining would you like to vote the number?
 

demo

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Well, I certainly wouldn't invest in that kind of coin. I'm pretty sure many others wouldn't either.
You are welcome to make one, of course. Then see how it would fare.
And you will stay in old Dash, where all stake holders, miners and new generation left?
Will your investment be safe, in that case?
You, the spies, and the advertisers who are telling lies? Is this a safe investment?
 

Checkerama

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I don't get the "undercirculated" argument. Cryptocurrencies are highly divisible. There is no lack of currency for anyone that wants to buy it.
The undercirculated argument is economics 101 - there is no incentive to spend and circulate the currency at any point - regardless of its divisiveness which, by the way, is why the US has a hard on for being the only currency to trade oil with around the world.

There is only incentive to buy, not sell, and because of that it doesnt create a two-way venue for DASH to be properly vetted as a currency and its usefulness to investors. It's just something anyone knowing what deflationary currencies do would think, and I understand that it can be used with any cryptocurrency out there, but the systems you currently have now make it all the more obvious. At least speculative investors (which all currency traders are) have a slingshot of hope for everyone to win if they invest in more liquid markets.

I think that is achievable in the next 5-6 months, maybe even sooner.
I have no doubts that as soon as this over-exuberance is over with Bitcoin, everyone will hedge it to DASH just as they have done many times before, and the price point may make this a profitable venture, but at the same time, I'm thinking in terms of long term sustainability. All that's required to shoot down this is another ASIC dump in the market. The way that difficulty is calculated is just far too quick in comparison to other coins. If DASH had as many miners as Bitcoin did, it would need to be worth ~$60,000(x4 Bitcoin's price) to attract a mining community as dominant as Bitcoin.
 

demo

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I got into Dash because I like how it works now.
If the miners, the stake holders and the new generation leaves, then Dash will not work as it works now. It will be the hanging garden!

 

Checkerama

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Could you please tell us what part of the code that refers to mining would you like to vote the number?
When I created the model, it was based off of a linear formula using every day of DASH difficulty increase/decrease coupled with its hashrate increase (information available on coinmarketcap) to determine my coefficient. No code. But if the developers want a VERY specific solution that involves changing the part of the code that governs difficulty, sure I'll go find it and give them a more proper code :)
 

Dandy

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I have no doubts that as soon as this over-exuberance is over with Bitcoin, everyone will hedge it to DASH just as they have done many times before, and the price point may make this a profitable venture, but at the same time, I'm thinking in terms of long term sustainability. All that's required to shoot down this is another ASIC dump in the market. The way that difficulty is calculated is just far too quick in comparison to other coins. If DASH had as many miners as Bitcoin did, it would need to be worth ~$60,000(x4 Bitcoin's price) to attract a mining community as dominant as Bitcoin.
Personally, I think Bitcoin has too many miners right now. Bitcoin mining uses as much electricity as a small sized european country.
We don't really need more hashing power at the moment.
Also, any ASIC dump would not work, as nobody would buy them with the current profitability.

If the miners, the stake holders and the new generation leaves, then Dash will not work as it works now.
It will be the hanging garden
Why would the stake holders leave if the Dash value stays strong?
If 90% of miners would leave, Dash would still function normally, so that's not really an issue.
 

demo

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Why would the stake holders leave if the Dash value stays strong?
How can Dash value remain strong, if there is no community to support it?
And why the stake holders and the fresh Dash generation to remain in old Dash, being the slaves of the MNOs, instead of going to the new Dash, get voting rights and become free?
Who prefers slavery from freedom?
 
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Checkerama

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Personally, I think Bitcoin has too many miners right now. Bitcoin mining uses as much electricity as a small sized european country.
We don't really need more hashing power at the moment.
Also, any ASIC dump would not work, as nobody would buy them with the current profitability.
They would when the DASH price increases once more to profitable levels. And yeah, maybe Bitcoin miners has TOO many miners... that could be a counterpoint to attract more people into the network, but it also guarantees the decentralized distribution of the network - the whole purpose of cryptocurrencies. I think we can pitch the environmental position when that becomes an underpinning issue which, currently, it has not. Maybe thats just cause everyones milking the profits.
 

Dandy

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How can Dash value remain strong, if there is no community to support it?
And why stake holders remain in old Dash, being the slaves of the MNOs instead of going to the new Dash, get voting rights and become free?
Who prefers slavery from freedom?
They will stay if they see a healthy development and rising of the value of their holdings.
Why would they want to be poor? Also, they are already free. Free to go to some other cryptocurrency if they like it better.
Dash is not a democracy. It's a corporation.
 
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