What's in a name? ...or, is a rose by any othername worth the trouble?

strix

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I am creating this thread to be a repository for the ongoing, and for some, annoying discussion of the Darkcoin name. It seems this subject comes up on a regular basis, resulting in a rehashing of old arguments, the opening of old wounds, and in general creating more heat than light. It is my hope that in the future, people wanting to discuss this issue can simply be pointed here to see what has already been discussed.

Before going further it needs to be recognized that this is not a democracy, nor should it be a shouting match. The decision to change--if it is ever made--will be made by Evan, and the board of directors of the foundation. It is my hope that they will find rational and polite input for their decision here.

To that end, I would suggest that we try not to repeat views that are already expressed here other than as needed to rebut, or rebut a rebuttal. The shorter this thread, the more likely it is to be useful to newbies reviewing the issue, and decision makers considering the options. I know that some on both sides are tired of debate, but I would ask that if you find the absence of an argument that you think important, please post it for consideration.

Peace to you all...
 

oblox

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I would like to chime in by saying if we do eventually consider a name change, oblox's compounding of DIGITAL CASH into DASH is a brilliant idea...

DASH (DSH) is DIGITAL CASH, the currency of the Internet!

I will have to become the DASH CHAMELEON...

:cool:
Not only that, Dash by definition, is fast--would also play off instantx as well as be able to use the existing D logos and the likes.
 

splawik21

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I think that if we official foundation of darkcoin and darkcoin foundation members want the name change it should be done after InstantX implementation with info couple of months before that there will be the name change...if so...
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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Darkcoin is feature wise, community wise and market capitalization wise amongst the top 10 of ALL coins for quite a while now, and it's one of the youngest of them.

It got there _with_ the name "Darkcoin".

Think about it.
Yes, it has gotten far, but I agree the potential would be so much more with a mainstream-friendly name. Makes it easier to sell...we are not just a "Dark" coin anymore, we are going to be THE most advanced coin there is, and our branding should reflect that, IMHO.
 

oblox

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Darkcoin is feature wise, community wise and market capitalization wise amongst the top 10 of ALL coins for quite a while now, and it's one of the youngest of them.

It got there _with_ the name "Darkcoin".

Think about it.
True, but by all accounts a $10 million dollar market cap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, let alone factoring all the potential end users out there. Just because it got there in crypto land, doesn't mean it will make it to large user adoption keeping the name as is.

Don't get me wrong, the exposure is great and the brand established in crypto is bar none, but it's peanuts to compare to brands globally and the average person, who already doesn't understand bitcoin as is, will have a tough enough time using something that has negative connotations associated with it. We can keep the name as is for all I am concerned, but know that the likelihood of mainstream adoption with it (along with far larger investors) is off the table, or at least slim at best. By keeping the name, I think you're limited to focusing on markets like the underground black markets, gambling, and porn. Which, in and of itself, is a large enough market anyway. Keeping the name as is means focusing attention to getting those three markets to use it. Trying to push for mainstream adoption with the name as is seems like a fruitless effort, but by all means, burn resources trying.
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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True, but by all accounts a $10 million dollar market cap is nothing in the grand scheme of things, let alone factoring all the potential end users out there. Just because it got there in crypto land, doesn't mean it will make it to large user adoption keeping the name as is.

Don't get me wrong, the exposure is great and the brand established in crypto is bar none, but it's peanuts to compare to brands globally and the average person, who already doesn't understand bitcoin as is, will have a tough enough time using something that has negative connotations associated with it. We can keep the name as is for all I am concerned, but know that the likelihood of mainstream adoption with it (along with far larger investors) is off the table, or at least slim at best. By keeping the name, I think you're limited to focusing on markets like the underground black markets, gambling, and porn. Which, in and of itself, is a large enough market anyway. Keeping the name as is means focusing attention to getting those three markets to use it. Trying to push for mainstream adoption with the name as is seems like a fruitless effort, but by all means, burn resources trying.
This exactly. With a name like DASH, our coin could be adopted anywhere, including Dark markets and such. Why handcuff ourselves by keeping a restrictive name? Let's give ourselves a chance to be something more, and realize the full potential of our Dark, AND Fast coin. This isn't your dad's Darkcoin anymore!
 
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moli

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TaoOfSatoshi

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oblox

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The logos might not be a problem but what about the source code, websites and everything else. Not sure if Evan would want to take this hurdle since the name of the coin was already changed once 11 months ago:

https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commit/fff17db9800c9f3f92485fb674fd289e6790c919
Source code is a find-and-replace sort of deal (much like what happened when it went from XCoin to Darkcoin or how we are currently replacing all the Bitcoin text in the 0.9 branch). Websites would have their domains forwarded to the new appropriate link. The foundation would have to file paperwork to name change but in the grand scheme of things, if the direction really was to rebrand, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
 
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moli

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OK guys :cool:, I'd like to designate you guys with the task... please ask Evan and see what he thinks ... lol :tongue:
 
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oblox

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I've already said my peace, I'm not going to push the issue any farther than it already has been. I've made my points--Evan, the team, the foundation, etc, can all evaluate pros and cons in moving forward. As I said, I am fine with Darkcoin's name as is if people realize that mainstream will not adopt it and resources aren't wasted on pursuing it. I implore the foundation and team to consult with a marketing firm as to which one would have the better outcome. I think you already know the answer.

What started as a privacy-centric coin has turned (and is turning) into something so much more. I don't think anyone at the beginning of the project imagined we would be where we are in such short order. I've already asked friends and family about investing and adopting Darkcoin and hands down the first question asked is, am I doing something illegal? I certainly am not the only one that has had this happen to. And that's just a small sample size. Surely, you will have people more receptive but I think you are completely disregarding the overwhelming majority by sticking to your guns and not looking at the larger picture.
 
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Sub-Ether

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suggest dressing up the darkcoin name into flowery star trek techno babble and then noone will be any the wiser. Thus preserving the best of both worlds.
 

moli

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I've already said my peace, I'm not going to push the issue any farther than it already has been. I've made my points--Evan, the team, the foundation, etc, can all evaluate pros and cons in moving forward. As I said, I am fine with Darkcoin's name as is if people realize that mainstream will not adopt it and resources aren't wasted on pursuing it. I implore the foundation and team to consult with a marketing firm as to which one would have the better outcome. I think you already know the answer.

What started as a privacy-centric coin has turned (and is turning) into something so much more. I don't think anyone at the beginning of the project imagined we would be where we are in such short order. I've already asked friends and family about investing and adopting Darkcoin and hands down the first question asked is, am I doing something illegal? I certainly am not the only one that has had this happen to. And that's just a small sample size. Surely, you will have people more receptive but I think you are completely disregarding the overwhelming majority by sticking to your guns and not looking at the larger picture.
The question still remains... Are you doing something illegal???!!! .. lol just kidding :D

It seems to me, it's not just the name but because it's a crypto currency that comes after bitcoin, which has the reputation as "drug money". Also, not many people understand how cryptos work and therefore do not like cryptos, not yet... Having said that, I do agree that I have come across some people who do not want to get into Darkcoin because of the name, and unfortunately, because of what happened to bitcoin first.
 

oblox

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The question still remains... Are you doing something illegal???!!! .. lol just kidding :D

It seems to me, it's not just the name but because it's a crypto currency that comes after bitcoin, which has the reputation of "drug money". Also, not many people understand how cryptos work and therefore do not like cryptos, not yet... Having said that, I do agree that I have come across people who do not want to get into Darkcoin because of the name, and unfortunately, because of what happened to bitcoin first.
lol, it is what it is. You can't change the majority's perception of English language overnight. I would love to be proven wrong about being able to achieve mass adoption while keeping the name the same, but I'm a realist and know that any efforts are going to be that much harder just for the sake of stubbornness. Lets face it, the Darkcoin community is small and even though it is small, they are more likely to just blindly stick together and refrain from looking at the larger picture because it's what they are comfortable with. I, on the other hand, want to see the coin grow and with that, it should be appealing to as many people as humanly possible. If the name is a deterrent, than it is an unnecessary deterrent. I'm not in charge here, I'm not spearheading anything... just pointing out a harsh reality. One in which the quicker people realize the limitations, the better off the coin will be. Hell, I am not even saying it has to be named Dash, it's just one idea of potentially many. I like it but just because I like it doesn't mean anyone else has to.
 
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strix

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Wow, this thread has kind of gotten ahead of its self! I was looking to simply gather reasons pro and con, not actually jump dash prematurely to name suggestions. I haven't had a chance to collate my thoughts and present them yet, so I will just respond to a few things that have been mentioned so far...
1. Crowning's astute historical observation holds water, but... success in the market requires being nimble. The perennial problem of breaking into the circle of success-breeds-success is always confounded by those those who will adopt quickest, but may ultimately limit appeal. Consider Presidential elections--candidates are often nominated by the most vocal/extreme activists of a party--but success at that level often destroys adoption in the general election. DRK is following the path of its predecessor BTC, with growing adoption by "dark" markets. I fully expect (dare I say hope) that this will continue. Up until this point the name has certainly attracted them and pushed the buttons of those who fear such things. This has lead to warnings of DRKs dangers by the mass media. This has bought DRK press it could have never afforded otherwise, and leading to even greater adoption by "those who love the dark because their deeds are evil." This has (and will) lead to even more press, and ever increasing attacks by those who see themselves as opponents of the "Dark side."

Bitcoin found itself in the same position, but as the technology was new, and not specifically seen as serving dark ends, it also had a significant libertarian element to it that quickly became vocal and demonstrated the utility of the coin. Their voice blunted the critique of the authorities, and while Dark markets continued their adoption, the publics view of the story slowly began to change and Wall-street began to step up to the plate, further breaking the perceived link between crime and BTC. Our coin must also make this transition if it hopes to fulfill the promise of economic freedom that BTC failed to fulfill. As Wall-street tycoons move for more and more regulation, we should actively be seeking libertarian support. A minority of them will no-doubt like the Dark moniker, but those same types have labored in obscurity for ages and hindered the overall movement.

The "dark-side" is now aware of us, and will continue its adoption even if we change the name to "Pink Pony." I suspect that their adoption will be huge, and that at this point nothing can stop it, short of the tech itself failing. If all you want is to get rich, then sit back, support the dev team, and watch it happen. However, if you want to change the world, the corner must be turned which allows Mom, and Pop, and Pastor, Priest, Rabi, Imam, politician, and yes even bankster, to see what is in it for them. The dark-side must be seen as an anomaly, not the focus, if this is to occur.

Switzerland, and Costa Rica will survive as neutral parties, no matter what happens, for the simple reason that everyone (even Hitler) wants a place to hideout should their plans for world domination fail. Our coin can and should fulfill that role. Good for all of us--and if means putting up with some dark scum in the shadows, so I can be free and help those suffering at the hands of others--so be it.

2. The Dash name is attractive, retains the D and evokes the highly marketable instantX attribute. As much as I like owls, a Dalmatian with blue D's for spots, running to put out economic fires has a certain appeal.:) But as I said, I think it may be premature to discuss specifics at this point.

3. I also love the Dash cartoon character, but I'm not sure you could get Disney's permission.:rolleyes:

4. I forget if it was tao or oblox who mentioned it, but the idea of a marketing consultant was well put.

Enough for now--Peace...
 
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r-ando

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Actually its not a harsh reality, its your perception, which is harsh, which is infinitely small compared to reality. Hahahaha

This is maybe going to seem a bit harsh, hopefully not too much.

So weird to discuss name changes right now imo… Definitely not something to casually laugh about in my opinion. I don't want to seem like an overbearing parent here but what are you thinking? This is the potentially sabotaging talk I was talking about.

These are the conversations that create absolutely no value and can actually hurt value if people think you are associated with the brand. I noticed you didn't include yourself in the community when you said ''they are more likely to just blindly stick together''. So maybe I should mention this to potential investors, these people are not people who consider themselves part of the community and whatever they say is random bla bla. :)

If I was an outside investor looking in on this out of curiosity or interest right now… after seeing the recent efforts put towards promoting the coin through online initiatives... and I see you guys spending time complaining about how you are not being effective when you try to sell things to people and you think its a name that has a proven track record already that is stopping you...

Instead of talking about ways to market the coin, cold calling, sending out USB's with clients, creating lists of target people we want to approach, etc… Things no one even commented about on this board when it was mentioned, you talk about things that give no value and put into question the brand.

I call that backseat driver and definitely not creating. Change your name please, why don't you change your name please? name… how often do you change your name? More than once a year? This shows me you are not creating or approaching businesses related to or that accept Darkcoin, you are not putting your heart fully into Darkcoin which is what I suggest people start doing because that is how you make a startup succeed. People power, heart power.

I'm creating a business based on Darkcoin right now and reading this stuff is not encouraging, frankly if you can't do branding you think you can do rebranding? And from scratch?

Someone who is good at selling can sell anything and they don't accept no for an answer and they close, thats how you get things done. Every client version has its own separate name already… Use that name to sell it if you feel insecure with the word Darkcoin.

You already have a multitude of tools to sell Darkcoin through different ways if that is what you are trying to do, what your telling me is that you are not being very effective at properly selecting those tools for selling things to people. If the name changes one day so be it, what you don't want to do is talk about it like old ladies (edit:eek:r old men) sitting on a bench all day in the sun like it was a joke. The identity of the brand is not a joke and it should not be casually put into question by someone who could be spending that supposedly positive questioning time doing something definitely constructive-creative. Because every moment you are doing this, you are not doing that. imo Surpass yourselves gentlemen and show some backbone show some resolve.
 
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oblox

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Actually its not a harsh reality, its your perception, which is harsh, which is infinitely small compared to reality. Hahahaha

This is maybe going to seem a bit harsh, hopefully not too much.

So weird to discuss name changes right now imo… Definitely not something to casually laugh about in my opinion. I don't want to seem like an overbearing parent here but what are you thinking? This is the potentially sabotaging talk I was talking about.

These are the conversations that create absolutely no value and can actually hurt value if people think you are associated with the brand. I noticed you didn't include yourself in the community when you said ''they are more likely to just blindly stick together''. So maybe I should mention this to potential investors, these people are not people who consider themselves part of the community and whatever they say is random bla bla. :)

If I was an outside investor looking in on this out of curiosity or interest right now… after seeing the recent efforts put towards promoting the coin through online initiatives... and I see you guys spending time complaining about how you are not being effective when you try to sell things to people and you think its a name that has a proven track record already that is stopping you...

Instead of talking about ways to market the coin, cold calling, sending out USB's with clients, creating lists of target people we want to approach, etc… Things no one even commented about on this board when it was mentioned, you talk about things that give no value and put into question the brand.

I call that backseat driver and definitely not creating. Change your name please, why don't you change your name please? name… how often do you change your name? More than once a year? This shows me you are not creating or approaching businesses related to or that accept Darkcoin, you are not putting your heart fully into Darkcoin which is what I suggest people start doing because that is how you make a startup succeed. People power, heart power.

I'm creating a business based on Darkcoin right now and reading this stuff is not encouraging, frankly if you can't do branding you think you can do rebranding? And from scratch?

Someone who is good at selling can sell anything and they don't accept no for an answer and they close, thats how you get things done. Every client version has its own separate name already… Use that name to sell it if you feel insecure with the word Darkcoin.

You already have a multitude of tools to sell Darkcoin through different ways if that is what you are trying to do, what your telling me is that you are not being very effective at properly selecting those tools for selling things to people. If the name changes one day so be it, what you don't want to do is talk about it like old ladies sitting on a bench all day in the sun like it was a joke. The identity of the brand is not a joke and it should not be casually put into question by someone who could be spending that supposedly positive questioning time doing something definitely constructive-creative. Because every moment you are doing this, you are not doing that. imo
I'm assuming this was directed at me, but herd mentality doesn't solve anything. Blindly agreeing to keeping the name the same without at least entertaining the potential of what could come from changing it is pretty obtuse. We are all pushing for adoption and just like you, I am out there trying to convince my circles to invest which has so far been fruitless at best. Again, you can't change the perception of English language and extrapolate the small crypto markets as anything other than being small and unknown. You think a $10M marketcap is a lot? Really?

Think small r-ando, be small. A name in and of itself can be a large deterrent for investors. How many do you think already passed over it because their perceptions were misguided and uninformed?

Please convince the grocery store down the street or the local gym to take Darkcoin. Go on. You afterall have brought on numerous merchants to Darkcoin, right? Nothing like selling a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves.

EDIT: And there is nothing wrong with have a healthy discussion while the coin is young about future potential, name change being one viable option. Darkcoin had its merits when it was exclusively a privacy-centric coin. When InstantX is finished, it will be far more than just for private tx's.
 
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moli

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Actually its not a harsh reality, its your perception, which is harsh, which is infinitely small compared to reality. Hahahaha

This is maybe going to seem a bit harsh, hopefully not too much.

So weird to discuss name changes right now imo… Definitely not something to casually laugh about in my opinion. I don't want to seem like an overbearing parent here but what are you thinking? This is the potentially sabotaging talk I was talking about.

These are the conversations that create absolutely no value and can actually hurt value if people think you are associated with the brand. I noticed you didn't include yourself in the community when you said ''they are more likely to just blindly stick together''. So maybe I should mention this to potential investors, these people are not people who consider themselves part of the community and whatever they say is random bla bla. :)

If I was an outside investor looking in on this out of curiosity or interest right now… after seeing the recent efforts put towards promoting the coin through online initiatives... and I see you guys spending time complaining about how you are not being effective when you try to sell things to people and you think its a name that has a proven track record already that is stopping you...

Instead of talking about ways to market the coin, cold calling, sending out USB's with clients, creating lists of target people we want to approach, etc… Things no one even commented about on this board when it was mentioned, you talk about things that give no value and put into question the brand.

I call that backseat driver and definitely not creating. Change your name please, why don't you change your name please? name… how often do you change your name? More than once a year? This shows me you are not creating or approaching businesses related to or that accept Darkcoin, you are not putting your heart fully into Darkcoin which is what I suggest people start doing because that is how you make a startup succeed. People power, heart power.

I'm creating a business based on Darkcoin right now and reading this stuff is not encouraging, frankly if you can't do branding you think you can do rebranding? And from scratch?

Someone who is good at selling can sell anything and they don't accept no for an answer and they close, thats how you get things done. Every client version has its own separate name already… Use that name to sell it if you feel insecure with the word Darkcoin.

You already have a multitude of tools to sell Darkcoin through different ways if that is what you are trying to do, what your telling me is that you are not being very effective at properly selecting those tools for selling things to people. If the name changes one day so be it, what you don't want to do is talk about it like old ladies sitting on a bench all day in the sun like it was a joke. The identity of the brand is not a joke and it should not be casually put into question by someone who could be spending that supposedly positive questioning time doing something definitely constructive-creative. Because every moment you are doing this, you are not doing that. imo Surpass yourselves gentlemen and show some backbone show some resolve.
This is a very unprofessional post and one of your strange posts that I often ignore but I can't ignore this one. We're all adults here and we're all investing in Darkcoin. If you don't agree with what people talk about how they feel or whatnot, please refrain from attacking them personally. And please read what you wrote before posting it. Thank you.
 

r-ando

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What I was trying to imply is you don't want a company changing its name all the time… sigh

I have succeeded and I am succeeding. Maybe you should refer your leads to me? No really... I don't want want to come off as cheeky oblox with all due respect but I don't play the negative thinking game, so let me turn this around, $10M a lot compared to what… What other year old startup are you comparing Darkcoin to exactly?

We don't want really want to argue but I think individual and team efforts could be better served than by endlessly going over the same things over and over again and talking about things that add no value and put the brand into question. The foundation was just launched named after Darkcoin! Come on...

Frankly I think its a little insulting for the people who are putting so much effort (you too!) into Darkcoin and investing so much of their personal resources into it. So on that note I'll stay positive. Thanks for letting me vent. Let Evan change the name if he wants to, just don't talk about it all the time please… it makes us look weak and ineffective and discourages further investment.
 

strix

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Actually its not a harsh reality, its your perception, which is harsh, which is infinitely small compared to reality. Hahahaha

The identity of the brand is not a joke and it should not be casually put into question by someone who could be spending that supposedly positive questioning time doing something definitely constructive-creative. Because every moment you are doing this, you are not doing that. imo Surpass yourselves gentlemen and show some backbone show some resolve.
Up until this point, I have not perceived anybody as joking, and the only laughter evidenced seems sarcastic rather than humorous, but I may be mistaken. While you have communicated it somewhat harshly, I take it that the reasonable point you were trying to make was that DRK is so far along in the adoption cycle, that to change course now would risk loosing market share. If this is correct, it would imply that you think we have less adoption available ahead of us than exists behind us. I think this is pessimistic and that now, or at least beforecoin development approaches 1.0 and leaves beta, would be the appropriate time.

I would really like to hear your reasoning as to why you think this is, or is not so, rather than negative opinions of other honorable members of this team. Sound reasoning is appreciated and welcome, ad homonym not so much.

Peace to you...
 

oblox

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What I was trying to imply is you don't want a company changing its name all the time… sigh

I have succeeded and I am succeeding. Maybe you should refer your leads to me? No really... I don't want want to come off as cheeky oblox with all due respect but I don't play the negative thinking game, so let me turn this around, $10M a lot compared to what… What other year old startup are you comparing Darkcoin to exactly?

We don't want really want to argue but I think individual and team efforts could be better served than by endlessly going over the same things over and over again and talking about things that add no value and put the brand into question. The foundation was just launched named after Darkcoin! Come on...

Frankly I think its a little insulting for the people who are putting so much effort (you too!) into Darkcoin and investing so much of their personal resources into it. So on that note I'll stay positive. Thanks for letting me vent. Let Evan change the name if he wants to, just don't talk about it all the time please… it makes us look weak and ineffective and discourages further investment.
No one is saying the name change will happen. We're all adults and having a meaningful, educational discussion is healthy for the coin.

I'll be the first to admit, every other name change suggestion till now (and it seems to happen every couple of months) I have been against, but with recent developments of InstantX, it seems now there is much more potential in usage than just those focusing on privacy. I think it's worth at least discussing. There is a very real possibility that nothing comes about, but at least it is discussed from those at have vested interests in the coin itself and to those that MIGHT be future users down the road. Having an educational discussion about pros and cons is good for the coin. Anyone that thinks having these sorts of things will negatively impact the coin only further proves that the community and market as is, is too small and impressionable.
 
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r-ando

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Peace to you as well strix!

I know I can come out as harsh but its meant well, I apologize for the moments when this will happen, I'm thinking about how to get things done and will err in my ways at times.
 
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