Universal Dividend and Web of Trust for Dashcoin

Do you like a Universal Dividend and a Web of Trust to be incorporated in Dashcoin?


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Druid

New Member
Jan 19, 2016
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Man, this is crypto town. You are trying to sell socialism to a bunch of libertarians trying to disrupt the government backed global financial system.

You might have more luck selling hamburgers at a vegan convention.
That. Thank you, sir, for expressing my thoughts with words.
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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You are right. People will vote to the extremes. This is an obvious consequence of the system I propose. But the vote in that system does not represent what people really believe and want, but whether they want the current result (the status quo) to be increased or decreased.
People are incentivized to vote on the extremes, but the result is representative of the actual consensus, because if the result is lower than someone believes it should be, then this person is always allowed to change his vote and vote to the opossite extreme. You have to understand that voting exactly what you believe is a wrong way of voting. It is not very important how big you believe a number should be, the most important thing is what others believe about that number. And when you vote, you must primarily take into account the opinions of the others, and not your opinion. Your opinion (and your voting attitude) strictly depends on the opinions of the others. This is what games theory also claims. People must accustom to vote taking into account games theory, taking into account the opinion of the others. They should stop voting like if they were alone in this world, and this applies to any kind of voting and not only to number voting.

There is not any problem with scammers making proposals for 100% of the budget. You understood me wrong.

You are not allowed to make a proposal asking 100% of the budget. You are just allowed to make the proposal. Thats all. You are also allowed to declare that you are going to start working only if the votes of the MO will reach your favorite percentage threshold.

But the percentage of the budget you receive for your proposal is the job of the masternode owners. The masternode owners are the ones who vote with percentages. The only thing you can can do, is to deny or to accept a budget percentage given to your proposal by the masternode owners.
Getting closer. I think the scammer is still a problem because even if there is no "proposed amount", anyone with a proposal is incentivized to bribe masternode owners to vote 100% on their proposal. Makes for a very strange dynamic where the votes may be more driven by how much is being kicked back to the masternode owners in the short term, than the long term benefit to the network. It also does not solve the problem that in real life there are actual contracts for specific amounts of money. This will result in a glut of underfunded projects.

In any case, I think you would do very well to separate your ideas out. You came into this thread going all gangbusters with web of trust, universal dividend and at the same time insisting that we change the protocol so that the way budgets are allocated, and the way the entire block reward is distributed are completely revamped in order for your idea to get funding. Take it one thing at a time. Right now in the current framework it appears you simply don't have enough support to get our people working on a universal dividend or to get a project like that funded, so I would recommend that you put this on the back burner. However the other questions about how the DGBB budget gets allocated among the proposals, and whether we can make the entire block reward allocation more dynamic, those are entirely different areas and should be talked about separately. You should also keep in mind that our project is still very young, and we really only have one core development team, and that development team still has more control over the vision for the project's future than you might have been led to believe by some of the hype about Dash's decentralized governance. The people who are actually programming and testing the protocol are also the ones who are most qualified to answer questions about technical feasibility. The best way to submit your ideas to the community is to clearly describe exactly what you are trying to accomplish and how, and in a way that is not antagonistic towards the development team.

/ramble
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
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In any case, I think you would do very well to separate your ideas out. You came into this thread going all gangbusters with web of trust, universal dividend and at the same time insisting that we change the protocol so that the way budgets are allocated, and the way the entire block reward is distributed are completely revamped in order for your idea to get funding. Take it one thing at a time. Right now in the current framework it appears you simply don't have enough support to get our people working on a universal dividend or to get a project like that funded, so I would recommend that you put this on the back burner.
/ramble
I am not asking a fund for myself, or a fund for whoever is going to implement the universal dividend in dash code. I asked a fund for the universal dividend itself, a some to be allocated and to be given to the (future) persons who are going to claim they deserve that dividend. If a some for the dividend is allocated, then I (or someone else) may start implementing the code (for socialistic reasons, for sure).

If the Masternode owners are only allowed to vote yes/no, and the majority rule is applied, then the universal dividend has no hope at all (taking into account the greed around here). But If the Masternode owners are allowed to vote with numbers, and the result is calculated with the average, then I hope someone to vote in favor of the universal dividend. Because I dont believe all MOs are greedy capitalists here, and because I believe that some MOs here are smart capitalists, and they understand that if they tottaly reject the universal dividend, this will be their fatal error and a catastrophic decision for dash. So in that case a small amount of universal dividend is going to be allocated.

Thats why I changed my tactic, I changed my visible opinion. It is the games theory, applied.
 
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tungfa

Grizzled Member
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Apr 9, 2014
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i think the community vote is VERY clear regarding this idea
i think you should accept it, as you asked for it
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
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i think the community vote is VERY clear regarding this idea
i think you should accept it, as you asked for it
This is not the community of the Masternode Owners. This is just a hint of what the masternode owners may vote.

if you are a bolshevik, you see a clear no in this vote result.
But if you are not, you see 195 dash per month.
 
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TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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I am not asking a fund for myself, or a fund for whoever is going to implement the universal dividend in dash code. I asked a fund for the universal dividend itself, a some to be allocated and to be given to the (future) persons who are going to claim they deserve that dividend. If a some for the dividend is allocated, then I (or someone else) may start implementing the code (for socialistic reasons, for sure).

If the Masternode owners are only allowed to vote yes/no, then universal dividend has no hope at all, taking into account the greed around here. But If the Masternode owners are allowed to vote with numbers, then I hope some one to vote in favor of the universal dividend. Because I dont believe all MO are greedy capitalist here. And in that case a small amount of universal dividend is going to be allocated.

Thats why I changed my tactic. It is games theory applied.
If the universal dividend is going to be in the code itself, then the infrastructure would need to be coded *before* any funding happens, unless you are hiring a developer or developers specifically to implement it. Right now the Masternode owners are only allowed to vote yes/no, and this vote determines only how the budget is allocated, not what features get implemented in the protocol. If you want it to be any other way, then tackle that first. Personally I think changes to the way budgets are allocated, or the way the block reward is allocated, is within the realm of possibility because it has already been done before (eg. the introduction of masternodes, although I wouldn't expect any radical changes and certainly not overnight). And governance over project direction is a different subject as well, which is imo, your biggest problem, because right now ultimately if the development team does not want to build a feature or if they think it is not feasible, then no amount of voting will ever be able to fix that.
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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This is not the community of the Masternode Owners. This is just a hint of what the mansternode owners may vote.

And if you are α bolshevik, you see a clear no in this vote result.
But if you are not, you see 195 dash per month.
I would be interested to see what the masternodes would vote if you can arrange a proposal :p I would guess it would be even more overwhelmingly "no" than the forum result.
 
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demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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If the universal dividend is going to be in the code itself, then the infrastructure would need to be coded *before* any funding happens, unless you are hiring a developer or developers specifically to implement it. Right now the Masternode owners are only allowed to vote yes/no, and this vote determines only how the budget is allocated, not what features get implemented in the protocol. If you want it to be any other way, then tackle that first. Personally I think changes to the way budgets are allocated, or the way the block reward is allocated, is within the realm of possibility because it has already been done before (eg. the introduction of masternodes, although I wouldn't expect any radical changes and certainly not overnight). And governance over project direction is a different subject as well, which is imo, your biggest problem, because right now ultimately if the development team does not want to build a feature or if they think it is not feasible, then no amount of voting will ever be able to fix that.
Of course not. We can also allocate an amount for the universal dividend, before creating the infrastructure. If this is the decision of the MOs, who is about to refuse it?

But in order for a some to be allocated for the universal dividend, first we need to allow MOs to vote with numbers. There is a strong majority here against the dividend, so the Bolsheviks will never allow such a thing unless we make them vote with numbers.

MOs may accept voting with numbers, because this affects not only the universal dividend (which is not important to them, who cares about 195 dash??), but also some other very important aspects, like their freedom for example.
 
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TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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Of course not. We can also allocate an amount for the universal dividend, before creating the infrastructure. If this is the decision of the MOs, who is about to refuse it?
Why would we need to allocate an amount before creating the infrastructure? The only way to do that in the present framework would be for someone trusted to actually submit a proposal and collect/hold the funds. Or do you just want a vote on the issue (with no funding attached), to see what the masternode owners think? Either way, are you willing to fund the proposal? It costs 5 DASH to submit
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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Why would we need to allocate an amount before creating the infrastructure? The only way to do that in the present framework would be for someone trusted to actually submit a proposal and collect/hold the funds. Or do you just want a vote on the issue (with no funding attached), to see what the masternode owners think? Either way, are you willing to fund the proposal? It costs 5 DASH to submit
It is meaningles to spend 5 dash, just to see what a majority of capitalists thinks. I dont care what their majority think. I care about their minority.
It is also meaningless to propose 195 dash for the universal dividend. 195 is a hypothetical number, based in the hypothesis that MOs are similar to the people voted here.

But I would like to make a proposal for allowing the MOs to be able to vote with numbers. If they accept that proposal, then everything else follows.
 
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tungfa

Grizzled Member
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Apr 9, 2014
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This is not the community of the Masternode Owners. This is just a hint of what the mansternode owners may vote.

if you are a bolshevik, you see a clear no in this vote result.
But if you are not, you see 195 dash per month.
than put up a Proposal for a MN vote ?
i am not sure what you are waiting for ?

please keep the politics at bay over here :rolleyes:
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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It is meaningless to propose 195 dash for the universal dividend. 195 is a hypothetical number, based in the hypothesis that MOs are similar to the people voted here.

But I would like to make a proposal for allowing the MO to vote with numbers.
So you would like to make a proposal in order to determine to what extent the masternode owners agree or disagree with voting with numbers, correct?
If that is the case, then I would recommend creating a proposal in a way such that it is in the form of a question, and it is very clear exactly what you mean when you are asking masternodes for a yea or nay on the subject. It will also cost 5 DASH to submit the proposal to the network, so are you willing to fund it?
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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So you would like to make a proposal in order to determine to what extent the masternode owners agree or disagree with voting with numbers, correct?
If that is the case, then I would recommend creating a proposal in a way such that it is in the form of a question, and it is very clear exactly what you mean when you are asking masternodes for a yea or nay on the subject. It will also cost 5 DASH to submit the proposal to the network, so are you willing to fund it?
Yes . But how can I pay with dash? I have no dash at all.
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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It costs 5 DASH to submit a proposal to the network, so it would be up to you to get 5 DASH.
Can you point to a place where I can easily buy dash, while protecting my anonymity at the same time?
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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Can you point to a place where I can easily buy dash, while protecting my anonymity at the same time?
You can try shapeshift.io, probably the easiest way if you want to trade for DASH with Bitcoin
 
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demo

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You can try shapeshift.io, probably the easiest way if you want to trade for DASH with Bitcoin
Thanks for the info. But unfortunately I have no bitcoin either. I have not any cryptocurrency. How can I buy a cryptocurrency, while protecting my anonymity at the same time?
 

tungfa

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Thanks for the info. But unfortunately I have no bitcoin either. How can I buy bitcoin , while protecting my anonymity at the same time?
go to an ATM near u :rolleyes:
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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Thanks for the info. But unfortunately I have no bitcoin either. How can I buy bitcoin , while protecting my anonymity at the same time?
o_O
How are you a crypto enthusiast without any crypto? Got any ether, anything?
The most anonymous way to get bitcoin is at a bitcoin ATM, or using something like localbitcoins.com
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
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o_O
How are you a crypto enthusiast without any crypto? Got any ether, anything?
The most anonymous way to get bitcoin is at a bitcoin ATM, or using something like localbitcoins.com
I am not a crypto enthusiast, I am a universal dividend enthusiast and an anonymity enthusiast .
localbitcoins.com seems nice, but it is not as anonymous as I would like.

Is there a map of cryptocurrency ATMs? Where you can put your cash while masked, and get cryptocurrencies?
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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I am not a crypto enthusiast, I am a universal dividend enthusiast and an anonymity enthusiast .

Is there a map of cryptocurrency ATMs? Where you can put cash and get cryptocurrencies?
Maybe use this? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-atm-map/
Idk if all bitcoin ATMs take cash, I would assume they do? I've never used one.

Of course you could also buy bitcoin non-anonymously, then trade it for DASH and use PrivateSend in the Dash wallet to mix/anonymize your coins. So there'd be an electronic trail of you buying the bitcoin, but then if you use shapeshift and especially the privatesend in the dash wallet, no one will be able to tell if you still own the dash or what you spent the dash on.
 
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tungfa

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demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
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Thank you guys for the info. I ll get my masked suit, and I ll try to reach those ATMs.

bye for now.
 

rustycase

Active Member
Apr 19, 2016
495
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Of course not. We can also allocate an amount for the
Yes, yes, I know... don't feed the ******.

I'm weak... can't resist.

Classic words from a socialist quoted above... 'we can also allocate an amount...'
An industrious person, on the other hand, would say, 'If I am able to do well, I will be able to help others.'

All told, I'll need to check up on my definitions... Not so familiar with 'statism'.
I've always thought fascism to be a merger of corporate powers and state authority, and I do feel we suffer from it's effects today.
As a newbie it is readily apparent everyone holding DASH may vote.
I am free to purchase as much as may be available, if impressed with the prospects.
Of course I may sell if unhappy with some perceived discrepancy.
And these acts may be accomplished with anonymity !

May I pass on the champagne ?
Make mine Stolichnaya, please.

YMMV
rc
 
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demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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Getting closer. I think the scammer is still a problem because even if there is no "proposed amount", anyone with a proposal is incentivized to bribe masternode owners to vote 100% on their proposal. Makes for a very strange dynamic where the votes may be more driven by how much is being kicked back to the masternode owners in the short term, than the long term benefit to the network. It also does not solve the problem that in real life there are actual contracts for specific amounts of money. This will result in a glut of underfunded projects.
There is no problem in that, because if a masternode owner votes 100% for a proposal, then he is forced to vote 0% for all the rest proposals. The scammer may bribe masternode owners to vote 100% on his proposal, but will a MO give this 100%? Of course not, because if a MO gives 100% to a proposal, then he has nothing else left to give to the other proposals.
 

demo

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It costs 5 DASH to submit a proposal
And those 5 dash go back to the budget, right?
So we have 45%(=miners reward)+45%(=masternodes reward)+10%(=budget)
But the budget is not only 10%, it is 10% + an amount arrived from the proposals fee.

Correct?

This 5 dash amount is also a number, it has obviously no theory behind, but can we vote on that number? A vote between 0 and all dash coins of the world makes no sense. So in order for a number to be be able to be voted, we must have at least 2 conditions.

1) For a number to be able to be voted, the number must not have a theory behind. If it has, then we vote yes/no for the theory.
2) For a number to be able to be voted, the number must be both up limited and down limited.

maybe a third condition is also neccessary. I am thinking of it.
 
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halso

Active Member
Apr 27, 2016
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And those 5 dash go back to the budget, right?

So we have 45%(=miners reward)+45%(=masternodes reward)+10%(=budget)

But the budget is not only 10%, it is 10% + an amount arrived from the proposals fee.

Correct?

This 5 dash amount is also a number, it has obviously no theory behind, but can we vote or that? A vote between 0 and all dash coins makes no sense.
So in order for a number to be be able to be voted, we must have 2 conditions.

1) the number has no theory behind.
2) the number can be up limited and down limited.

maybe a third condition is also neccessary. I am thinking of it.
@demo

Dude. No one is buying what you are selling.

People are being polite, but they are just humoring you. Everyone is tired of your wacky ideas.

No one agrees with you.

You are turning into a pest.
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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@demo

Dude. No one is buying what you are selling.

People are being polite, but they are just humoring you. Everyone is tired of your wacky ideas.

No one agrees with you.

You are turning into a pest.
You are right. I have to add a poll in this forum, in order to investigate whether the majority of MOs like to vote with numbers. In case the majority of the MOs dont like to be released from statism and from bolshevism, it is meaningless to propose to the budget and thus spend 5 dash for nothing.

Of course voting with numbers is already an option in this poll. But I am the only one who voted it. I think I am going to add a new poll about voting with numbers, because I have a hope (a tiny one) that people didnt observe that alternative option, due to the title of the poll and due to the fact that this alternative option is added recently and not from the begining.

And for historical reasons, lets take a snapshot of the current result.

Do you like a Universal Dividend and a Web of Trust to be incorporated in Dashcoin?
  1. yes for both 1 vote(s) 2.3%
  2. yes for Universal Dividend 0 vote(s) 0.0%
  3. yes for Wev of Trust 1 vote(s) 2.3%
  4. no 39 vote(s) 88.6%
  5. other 2 vote(s) 4.5%
  6. Lets vote with numbers 1 vote(s) 2.3%
and the people who voted "no" are:
TanteStefana Stealth923 elbereth aleix splawik21 Lariondos tungfa yidakee UdjinM6 calnaughtonjnr acidburn crowning Raptor73 JGCMiner raganius AjM MangledBlue oaxaca TaoOfSatoshi bertlebbert HinnomTX bandidorl studioz camosoul Jeztah balu Macrochip kot noobtrader Vedran Yoweri TroyDASH Defacto Comodore amanda_b_johnson Druid chenriquelira Otaci rustycase halso
 
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