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Time to lower PrivateSend fee, pretty please -- it's up to ~$6 USD!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by amanda_b_johnson, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. amanda_b_johnson

    amanda_b_johnson Active Member

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    Hey, all. And especially @UdjinM6 and his Core development crew.

    As you already know (this is for the benefit of anyone who doesn't), sending a PrivateSend transaction (the automated kind, not the manual-select kind) rounds up the send amount to the nearest 0.01 Dash.

    That's now ~$6.27 USD!

    As a big fan of and user of PrivateSend, I'd love if the lowering of this fee could be added to the next software release.

    Much thanks for the continuing great work, and a near-complete update to 12.2.
     
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  2. AjM

    AjM Well-known Member
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  3. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member
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    This would require mixing denominations of 0.001 right?
     
  4. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    InstantSend is not PrivateSend ;)

    Yes, the nature of this fee is that it rounds down to the smallest mixing denom to avoid having so called "dead change". We already have 4 mixing denoms (10, 1, 0.1, 0.01) and I'm not sure if we can add yet another one without damaging mixing performance - it could get pretty hard to find mixing parties. I wouldn't promise anything without seeing some results on testnet first :)
     
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  5. AjM

    AjM Well-known Member
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    Indeed, but you said: "All transaction fees are reduced 10x..." :)
     
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  6. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    "All transaction fees are reduced 10x (from 10K per Kb to 1K per Kb)"
    and PS fees are not counted per Kb :p
     
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  7. AjM

    AjM Well-known Member
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    Ok, so Amanda is right then?
     
  8. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    In a sense that fees for PS can be as high as ~$6 - yes. But they can also be as low as normal fees, it really depends on the amount you are trying to send, see my explanation about the PS fee calculation above.
     
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  9. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    A little off-topic but relevant in that it would reduce fees..

    Would it be better to change mixing and use a similar method to zcoin. They burn a coin and then simply issue a new one. I dunno, seems simpler, faster and cheaper to me.
     
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  10. amanda_b_johnson

    amanda_b_johnson Active Member

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    @UdjinM6, if 4 mixing denoms is preferable, what about just lowering them all? So instead of 10, 1, 0.1, and 0.01, they'd be 1, 0.1, 0.01, and 0.001.

    What say you?
     
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  11. demo

    demo Active Member

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    The solution is not to ask @UdjinM6. Who is he, and he is allowed to play with the numbers? Is he a god or something?

    The solution is adaptive Privatesend fee (similar to the adaptive proposal fee of @GrandMasterDash).
    Go vote the numbers, you retarded average people! Go vote them now!
     
    #11 demo, Nov 28, 2017
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  12. amanda_b_johnson

    amanda_b_johnson Active Member

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    Although I think that this requires careful thought, because the fees charged for different services on our network will shape customer behavior.

    If we can't mix (or charge too much for) 10 denoms, customers may be tempted to go elsewhere for sending large, private transactions. If we can't mix (or charge too much for) 0.001 or 0.0001 denoms, customers may be tempted to go elsewhere to send small, private transactions.

    @Ryan Taylor , @eduffield222, @Chuck Williams -- what say you?
     
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  13. demo

    demo Active Member

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    So what is your vote? Is your vote a conditional one?
     
    #13 demo, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  14. younglegend

    younglegend Member

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    She brought up very important issue. This matter will increase as dash grows.

    maybe we should humble our selves and learn from newer privacy tech-knowledge crypto and do

    some softfork? I would love to vote for dash to organize teams to develop and improve tech-knowledge of DASH and

    add value to the company.
     
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  15. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    My knowledge in cryptography is limited to some basic stuffs. Implementing and reviewing low level crypto requires way too much time and experience in that specific field to make it right, I personally don't have either one. If someone can find a really good cryptographer who is passionate about Dash and is willing to implement some kind of crypto magic to improve any aspect of Dash - I'm all for it.
     
  16. demo

    demo Active Member

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    This could be a very nice government decision: "The MNOs decided to search for cryptographers, and pay them X amount whenever they solve Dash's problems."

    Will you give 5 dash from your pocket, to propose this in the budget system, for the benefit of the community? Of course not...nobody does...Or, do you expect the cryptographers to pay the 5 dash?

    Thats why the budget system SUCKS! Because it incentivizes greedy selfish people to propose for their own profit, instead of incentivizing people to propose something good for the benefit of the whole community.
     
    #16 demo, Nov 29, 2017
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  17. RobertWelain

    RobertWelain New Member

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    Totally agree!!!
     
  18. Chuck Williams

    Chuck Williams Official Dash Dev
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    @UdjinM6 is arguably one of our most knowledgeable developers, so on the hard-core tech side I would defer to his correction... however... it seems reasonable to me to expect that if the constraint is the number of denominations for performance purposes, then the value of a "10" mixer would predictably diminish as the "dollar density" of each denomination increases. Basically - shifting denominations would likely happen naturally as users shift downward and "regress toward the mean" (mathematically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean).

    It would be valuable, and probably necessary, to account for these downward shifts in density as the market values of the denominations are pressed upward. The Dash system/platform will need to react in a number of ways like this in order to accommodate the incoming value. Otherwise, we'll be another overpriced currency too expensive to transact.

    OTOH: While mixing & PS transactions may be more costly than regular transactions, I think it's safe to assume that people are willing to pay up to a certain reasonable amount for that privacy. How much? I don't know.... but it's worth accounting the "market rate" for privacy. The challenge here, though, is that most people don't value their privacy *at all* - until their identity is stolen, or some such mess. Market-pricing privacy will get easier, but right now it's nearly impossible, and I daresay almost futile, IMHO. Among urgent issues facing the Dash ecosystem - this is a rising one, but not in the top 5 issues - probably top 10.

    My $0.02.
     
  19. demo

    demo Active Member

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    The increase of the privatesend fee is yet another predecided branch of the structured methodology of the spies. They decided that privatesend should be very expensive, in order to force most of the people not use it. That way, the few people that will keep using privatesend, they will be easily identified. The plan of the spies is so obvious, that only a stupid cannot see it. But unfortunately we have too many stupid here.
    What is my vote? PrivateSend fee should be zero or even negative, in order to incentivize many people to use it, and that way make the job of the spies harder.

    My -$0.02.
     
    #19 demo, Nov 29, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
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  20. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    Or "free" privacy from a privacy centric coin. People really like "free" even if it's not actually free, hence the market cap boost on privacy based coins.
     
  21. Elmo

    Elmo New Member
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    So if DASH goes up 10x to $7,500 private transactions will cost up to $60?
     
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  22. goto1415

    goto1415 New Member

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    While I think the idea behind mixing is clever and cool, the short comings of how PrivateSend works overall are glaringly obvioius. Below is a list of things (there may be more) I can think of that makes PrivateSend an unviable solution for most people to use and is probably the biggest reason people actually don't use PrivateSend.

    Coin mixing is inefficient on many levels

    • places an unnecessary burden on users having to mix coins before being able to make private transactions
    • users incur fees to transact privately
    • users incur higher PrivateSend fees as Dash price appreciates
    • places an extra burden on masternodes to do the mixing
    • places and unnecessary burden on Dash Core as there is an ongoing decision making process and administrative overhead required to adjust the fee structure based on price fluctuations
    • relying on mixed denominations has caused problems for users previously where not enough mixed denominations were available to do a PrivateSend

    People shouldn't have to pay for the priviledge of private transactions just because the system uses an inefficient mechanism to satify the need. Dash has done presentations touting that to be successful it must do things better than what the current fiat system offers - charging for the ability to transact privately is not an improvement on the existing system.

    Most of these problems could be fixed by replacing the mixing mechanism of PrivateSend with a cryptographic solution like Zerocoin or zk-SNARKs. PIVX have managed to implement Zerocoin with a lot less resources than Dash. Dash core should be looking to remedy this before it becomes a bigger problem in the future.
     
    #22 goto1415, Nov 30, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
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  23. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    And it's not available on any mobile wallet.

    And when it's available in Evolution, it will still be unavailable in all other mobile wallets. Why must Private Send be a wallet specific function?
     
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  24. Antti Kaikkonen

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    Privatesend collateral payment is also ~$0.8 (0.001 dash) now. I don't think it would much make sense to mix 0.001 denominations if the collateral payment stayed the same. And I guess lowering the collateral payment would make privatesend more vulnerable to sybil attacks...
     
  25. younglegend

    younglegend Member

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    given the budget,



    Who says people doesn't value privacy? Dash being first privacy crypto makes dash a #1 private crypto in the market.

    I'd love to make private transaction if it wasn't so expensive, also make instant payment all the time if the price is even cheaper.

    Offering more choices makes DASH strong. Is it not DASH motto still is private effortless transaction?
     
  26. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    We all appreciate Core is working flat out on Evolution but please, we have people in HR so just give us the developers we need to make PS better. I'm sure the majority of MNOs would wholeheartedly welcome it.
     
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  27. Dash News Network

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    Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.

    Show me one line of Evolution code (YOU CAN'T!). Show me one DIP >001 (YOU CAN'T!). Show me one peer-reviewed whitepaper (YOU CAN'T!).

    Despite over a year of lavishly funded supposed development, we don't even have a specification for Evolution, so you have zero factual basis on which to assert Core is "working flat out" on it.

    The only thing Core is *DEMONSTRABLY* working flat out on is moving Dash Core Group and Dash Foundation assets into hidden tax havens where Duffield can enjoy spending them far away from the IRS, SEC, and FBI.
     
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  28. Elmo

    Elmo New Member
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    Why are you here?
     
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  29. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    Tax havens? - lol, how clueless you are. Crypto IS the tax haven. For you, me, Duffield, EVERYONE. Damn right that the IRS, SEC and FBI can, finally, no longer confiscate what inherently belongs to the people.
     
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  30. Dash News Network

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    Nice deflection and derailing attempt. Now answer the question.

    Where is the evidence for the claim that "Core is working flat out on Evolution?"
     
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