(Pre-Proposal) DASHPayCard - DASH Branded Debit Card + Fiat/Dash Integration

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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Profit Sharing

I'm not 100% sure how this will work. Basically, there is a revenue share that will accumulate from fees to use the card. After talking to the DASH biz dev team, we want to pass the profit back onto the masternodes, miners and community. Would love your feedback on how to do this!

OR

We could just use the funds from the profit share to make the fees lower. I need to ask them about this.
Seems like this idea is the most favored. I will negotiate the rev share and then use that to make the card price and fees as cheap as possible.
I wanted to emphasize that this isn't so much of a choice, as an inevitable conclusion.

How do you Profit Share? You can't pump duffs back into the blockchain once they're removed. Same problem as the budget system's proportionality failure results in free money regardless and burn if it not used.

It would also make an accounting headache.

Better to leave it fiat-side and reduce the fees.

This simultaneously creates a carrot for the simple-minded: "DASH's fees are lower, lets use that instead."

If it's stupid, but works, it isn't stupid.
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How opposed would you be to allowing this service to evolve?

I ask because cards are an awkward and counterproductive step towards what should be; direct use of crypto.

But, once that middle man starts getting paid, that middle man doesn't want to quit. Even if that middle man is being simultaneously handed an opportunity for something better. Once there is money hose, change is unwelcome... Ask a CPU miner... Not to mention the double-fee liability and fraudulent misrepresentation of the conversions as capital gains.

If you have a DASH --> fiat path, you could skip this silly loop.

You could eliminate the burden on the consumer by supporting vendors directly with a crypto > fiat service. Vendors already do AML/KYC on themselves. When is the last time someone paid with cash and filled out ID forms?

We don't really want a card. It's a burden to the consumer that fills in the gap for vendors who have not integrated DASH into their POS. Many people have become complacent with cards as a "good enough" position. And worse, it creates another middle man that resists the ultimate final step. This is not what crypto promised us, but we've compromised and become complacent due to the limitations of bitclones. DASH does not have those limitations. This step can be taken where others cannot.

Where do you stand on that?
 

JZA

Active Member
Jan 4, 2016
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Cancun
alexandro.biz
Dash Address
XmZ3aBBWJdYa6hUJkWbTvwHMwMscmHQFNH
web sites that accept bitcoin dont always take dash, start with both small vendors on a pos system. And getting online vendors to accept dash that perform a service where timing matters. These cards cover the gap until one day the ecosystem is so robust converting back to fiat will be the hard part.
My point is that I would rather see those dash going into Widgets creation for popular Webstores like Magento. Improve the Woocomerce plugin, or create a more sophisticate purchase methods-POS.
 

thesavoyard

Member
Mar 15, 2017
143
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Amsterdam
www.disaf.eu
Dash Address
Xp8WZRv9Papo21ySQE8ghtQDUxN6qoKzS6
You can't profit share. The master nodes do not own the treasury money, they hold a vote to distribute it for the benefit of Dash. Not only does it violate Dash's intent for the master node system but probably runs afoul of bribery and corruption laws in many countries. Could you imagine a grant board receiving kickbacks for grants? That's exactly what it would be.
 

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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Coinizy CEO here. Charlie, I really appreciate all your efforts for both BTC & Dash communities, but you might want to credit us the next time you deliberately use our 2015 virtual bitcoin debit card design to craft yours (d1ueyc5nx1it61.cloudfront.net/939ebe5717041001104.png) . Thanks, and keep up the good crypto work
Yannick
He said it might not be the final design. Its just a demo image. I'm not even involved and I can tell that much.
 

CharlieShrem

New Member
Mar 15, 2017
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Coinizy CEO here. Charlie, I really appreciate all your efforts for both BTC & Dash communities, but you might want to credit us the next time you deliberately use our 2015 virtual bitcoin debit card design to craft yours (https://www.d1ueyc5nx1it61.cloudfront.net/939ebe5717041001104.png) . Thanks, and keep up the good crypto work
Yannick
Hey.

Firstly, I did not "deliberately" do anything. If you are going to accuse me of doing something deliberately which implies intent, you must prove it.

I hired a designer to design this card (I can show you the receipt if you choose). If you want to accuse him of stealing your design, thats fine, however please do not accuse me.

If you want to claim ownership of this design, thats fine, I will change it. Im sorry to bother you :)

Charlie
 

TanteStefana

Grizzled Member
Foundation Member
Mar 9, 2014
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I wanted to emphasize that this isn't so much of a choice, as an inevitable conclusion.

How do you Profit Share? You can't pump duffs back into the blockchain once they're removed. Same problem as the budget system's proportionality failure results in free money regardless and burn if it not used.

It would also make an accounting headache.

Better to leave it fiat-side and reduce the fees.

This simultaneously creates a carrot for the simple-minded: "DASH's fees are lower, lets use that instead."

If it's stupid, but works, it isn't stupid.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How opposed would you be to allowing this service to evolve?

I ask because cards are an awkward and counterproductive step towards what should be; direct use of crypto.

But, once that middle man starts getting paid, that middle man doesn't want to quit. Even if that middle man is being simultaneously handed an opportunity for something better. Once there is money hose, change is unwelcome... Ask a CPU miner... Not to mention the double-fee liability and fraudulent misrepresentation of the conversions as capital gains.

If you have a DASH --> fiat path, you could skip this silly loop.

You could eliminate the burden on the consumer by supporting vendors directly with a crypto > fiat service. Vendors already do AML/KYC on themselves. When is the last time someone paid with cash and filled out ID forms?

We don't really want a card. It's a burden to the consumer that fills in the gap for vendors who have not integrated DASH into their POS. Many people have become complacent with cards as a "good enough" position. And worse, it creates another middle man that resists the ultimate final step. This is not what crypto promised us, but we've compromised and become complacent due to the limitations of bitclones. DASH does not have those limitations. This step can be taken where others cannot.

Where do you stand on that?
To me, the question is, how long will a "debit card" be required. You're right, it will become extinct if things go well. Still, allowing Dash holders to easily use a debit card wherever they go NOW will be a big boost. I'd use what is available now, if it weren't so expensive because I simply don't have the luxury to do so at the high percentage charge it costs.

Sure, the middle man won't want to leave, but can they stop us from growing in the end? When/if we gain enough Dash users, merchants will see the advantage of taking Dash directly themselves. I don't think the middle man (Charlie Shrem) can stop that???
 
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TanteStefana

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No, you should distribute all profits to yourself and buy a Lamborghini ;) Making a Dash debit card available in the US would be well worth the proposed amount imho but if there are profits to re-invest then things like sign up offers and fee reductions could be better than re-distribution amongst masternodes.
I would like to see fees as low as possible. As for sign up offers or some other marketing incentives, Charlie can make another proposal for that. It's the same as any other partnership we've gotten into :)
 

xjones

Member
May 22, 2016
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I don't know a lot about credit and debit cards, but I do know they are a profitable scheme, funded by fees paid by merchants, fees paid by those who own the bank accounts from which the bills are paid, finance charges paid by those who do not pay off their balance immediately, annual fees paid by many cardholders, and late fees often paid by many cardholders.

I can see how a loan might be offered to get this branded card initially off the ground.

But I would expect that in the long run it will make money for the bank issuing it, so I don't see why we should not expect the loan to be fully repaid, and then for the Dash-branded card to become a future source of income for the Dash treasury.

A DASH-branded card should be a profit center, not a cost center. Otherwise there is something fundamentally wrong with the entire scheme.
 

TanteStefana

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Mar 9, 2014
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I don't know a lot about credit and debit cards, but I do know they are a profitable scheme, funded by fees paid by merchants, fees paid by those who own the bank accounts from which the bills are paid, finance charges paid by those who do not pay off their balance immediately, annual fees paid by many cardholders, and late fees often paid by many cardholders.

I can see how a loan might be offered to get this branded card initially off the ground.

But I would expect that in the long run it will make money for the bank issuing it, so I don't see why we should not expect the loan to be fully repaid, and then for the Dash-branded card to become a future source of income for the Dash treasury.

A DASH-branded card should be a profit center, not a cost center. Otherwise there is something fundamentally wrong with the entire scheme.
I don't think this is a credit card. It is a debit card that must be funded to use. Like Charlie said: "IMHO the real value here is now you can buy DASH with bank transfer, INTERAC, in 190 countries. It's amazing!" (page 2) However, they make make fees off the merchant.
 
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TanteStefana

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Hey, I just thought of something @CharlieShrem , if there were a way, after a year or two, to collect the names of all the merchants that sold to a Dash card customer, then send them advertisement that says, "you've sold to X number of customers, if you accepted Dash directly, you could have saved X% in fees"

Of course, if this is a for profit venture for you, you would probably not want to do that. But if this is a passion for adoption for you, then that could be a cool way to reach merchants that have crypto users they're catering to without knowing it :)
 

mastermined

Active Member
May 26, 2014
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Do we know what the fee's are going to be yet? We already have a few other options that utilizes instantsend IIRC. The problem with those though is the crazy high fee's and exchange rates.
How will this card be different? Will it work with Instantsend at some point?
 

JZA

Active Member
Jan 4, 2016
516
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Cancun
alexandro.biz
Dash Address
XmZ3aBBWJdYa6hUJkWbTvwHMwMscmHQFNH
I want to know if these would be dash cards or us nominated cards, which sucks btw. I would like to see a DASH card that holds dash, like xappos does for Bitcoin

Sent from my MotoE2 using Tapatalk
 
Mar 13, 2017
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Maybe I should not have jumped the gun and told all my friends that the card will be ready this summer, but I did. :p
 

GrandMasterDash

Well-known Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
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@CharlieShrem I've previously suggested that companies such as yours might be in a good position to help verify the distribution of MNOs, using AML / KYC to count unique people. My question is, what would incentivise you to produce such a report (obviously in a way to protect personal info)?
 

mastermined

Active Member
May 26, 2014
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387
133
Still waiting to hear what the fee's are before casting my votes. I really enjoyed the tao interview today and hope to vote for this proposal! Everything looks solid i just want to know what the fee's are going to be before voting.
 

Dr. Julian Hosp

Active Member
Mar 24, 2017
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Still waiting to hear what the fee's are before casting my votes. I really enjoyed the tao interview today and hope to vote for this proposal! Everything looks solid i just want to know what the fee's are going to be before voting.
Virtual Card: 1x 1.5 USD
Physical Card: 1x 15 USD incl. shipping
no annual fees as long as you spend more than 250 USD per 12 months. Otherwise: 1.5 USD virtual card or 3.5 USD physical card
We do not charge any transaction fees other than what Polo is using (please understand that there might be a slight difference due the small time lag, which should not be significant though - just stating that as we had users who said the price was a few decimals off)
We make our money from the merchant side through the kick-back as we do not rely on a 3rd party.

This is already implemented for BTC that way and DASH would have the same structure once finished. How does that sound @mastermined
 

mastermined

Active Member
May 26, 2014
511
387
133
Virtual Card: 1x 1.5 USD
Physical Card: 1x 15 USD incl. shipping
no annual fees as long as you spend more than 250 USD per 12 months. Otherwise: 1.5 USD virtual card or 3.5 USD physical card
We do not charge any transaction fees other than what Polo is using (please understand that there might be a slight difference due the small time lag, which should not be significant though - just stating that as we had users who said the price was a few decimals off)
We make our money from the merchant side through the kick-back as we do not rely on a 3rd party.

This is already implemented for BTC that way and DASH would have the same structure once finished. How does that sound @mastermined
My questions are for charlie's card proposal. I think you are in the wrong thread :oops:
I personally like both card ideas:). We already have a few cards but they all have one issue or another i don't like. Fee's are a big thing for me as well as Instantsend integration.
 
Mar 13, 2017
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Will wait to see what core team like @babygiraffe has to say about this, will abstain until this point.

EDIT: Ended up abstaining and letting the community decide. I'm glad it was funded and hope to see the slick new cards soon.
 
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