Pre-Proposal: Adaptive Proposal Fees

Would you accept this proposal?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 41.7%
  • No

    Votes: 7 58.3%

  • Total voters
    12

raze

King of the Morlocks
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Mar 9, 2014
337
372
233
Dash Address
Xtrdw361DvoyDhxL5XoeAvTxTPvM4dXuLW
Nice idea if you believe in fiat, in which case, why are you in crypto? What happens if the US dollar hyper-inflates / becomes volatile, or your preferred currency is EUR, GBP, CNY, YEN? If we had to denominate in something else, I would rather ask, "how many grams of gold would you give me for this dash?" But ultimately, it's far easier and less subjective if we simply denominate in dash.
Aren't we having a debate over proposal fees precisely because of fiat valuation? Unfortunately, Dash doesn't exist in a closed ecosystem (yet). Pegging the fee to something with low volatility, be it USD or something else, is far less subjective and more efficient than going through a new proposal process to play catch-up every time the price moves.
 

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
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I only "believe" in fiat because I have to pay my rent, elecricity, water bill, groceries, etc in fiat. When the day comes that USD hyperinflates, then such an index price will not be needed anymore. If USD hyperinflates, it'll be many years or even decades from now anyways. Most likely in the mean time, Dash is likely to be more volatile than USD, therefore pricing should be denominated in USD.
Too US centric, dash is global
 

GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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Aren't we having a debate over proposal fees precisely because of fiat valuation? Unfortunately, Dash doesn't exist in a closed ecosystem (yet). Pegging the fee to something with low volatility, be it USD or something else, is far less subjective and more efficient than going through a new proposal process to play catch-up every time the price moves.
Yeah, but your view of the US dollar comes from your personal location and circumstance. Try explaining this to a Chinese or Russian person and see how far you get. Everyone in their global location already knows how much their dash is worth. As an MNO, is it really that difficult to submit one command each month stating your preferred proposal fee? Denominating in dash keeps us all on the same page.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
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Really, I'm beginning to think MNOs can't and won't decide shit. Someone has already put up their own money (twice!) to try and lower the price, no one else has bothered countering it with their own proposal because it's too expensive / they are too stingy. On the forums, fine, y'all going to argue the shit out of this. Oh yeah, you're going to have opinions when it's free, but none of you won't put up or shut up. Y'all going to start discussing the merits of denominating in US dollars or some shit but that's it, cheap useless words. Where is your proposal to crowd source USD values etc?

Dare not that you change from dash to usd / grams of gold etc. Dare not that you change from 5 dash to any other value. You all are making jokes of dash, you can't decide anything. That's why others are experimenting with governance in novel ways; decred, pivx etc. More inclusive, not just a few hundred MNOs too scared to try something new. What was so magical about 5 dash in the early days? Why is 5 still the magic number? You want to talk about high proposal fees to retain quality proposals... then fine, you're going to support a fee of 50 dash? - why not? And there was me thinking that this time next year, dash might be worth 10x and y'all going to be sitting there justifying a 10x fee increase. None of you can claim this to be true because none of you are willing to try any other value or approach.
 
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Vedran Yoweri

Active Member
Apr 29, 2015
334
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Really, I'm beginning to think MNOs can't and won't decide shit.
Most ignore these desperate attempts.
Someone has already put up their own money (twice!) to try and lower the price
More to come i hope.
You all are making jokes of dash, you can't decide anything.
Ahh. the ranting phase. nice.
experimenting with governance in novel ways; decred, pivx etc.
Go man, go.
 

dashly

Member
Mar 5, 2017
110
44
78
Put up or shut up. So far, the only people that have submitted governance proposals are Evan, myself and @Technologov
And I, for one, appreciate it. It takes balls at these prices.

I would vote "Yes" to a proposal fee that was created based on MN votes. As long as it took into account the outliers, like somebody voting 10000 Dash and it was also flexible enough to work with fractions.

I would also vote "Yes" to a proposal fee tied to a fixed price of fiat, say $50 USD... but I would prefer it to be tied to 3 oz of silver... That would more likely take into account inflation. So it could be conversion from silver prices to fiat to Dash. Different currencies could be used to get an average... (3*oz of silver in USD -> Dash, 3*oz of silver in CNY -> Dash, etc...)
 

dashly

Member
Mar 5, 2017
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So I did the math for 3 oz of silver using 2 base currencies... we could use more!

USD oz of silver = 18.00 (USD)
CNY oz of silver = 123.54 (CNY)

18*3=54 (USD)
123.54*3=370.62 (CNY)

Divide values by price of Dash in each respective currency.

54/72.18 = 0.748 Dash
370.62/418.03 = 0.887 Dash

Take the average and get 0.8175 Dash per proposal.

Now we have to deal with the issue of spam. This was discussed earlier in a different thread. For each 10 proposals submitted we could increase the proposal fee by 1/2 the initial proposal fee... So the 1-10 proposal would cost 0.8175 Dash, 11-20 would cost 1.22625 Dash, 21-30 would cost 1.635 Dash, etc... Obviously would take some coding work, but it would be a long term solution.
 

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
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Jul 12, 2015
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And I, for one, appreciate it. It takes balls at these prices.

I would vote "Yes" to a proposal fee that was created based on MN votes. As long as it took into account the outliers, like somebody voting 10000 Dash and it was also flexible enough to work with fractions.

I would also vote "Yes" to a proposal fee tied to a fixed price of fiat, say $50 USD... but I would prefer it to be tied to 3 oz of silver... That would more likely take into account inflation. So it could be conversion from silver prices to fiat to Dash. Different currencies could be used to get an average... (3*oz of silver in USD -> Dash, 3*oz of silver in CNY -> Dash, etc...)
Thank you. Yes, if you look at how the median average works, a few outliers of, say, 1000 dash (or the other extreme of 0.1 dash) would not affect the overall result. Please see this link for a straight forward explanation; http://www.mathsisfun.com/median.html

Although I see some merit for dash fx rates, I feel this in itself opens up a whole other debate and yet another way to create indecision. At least with dash denominations, there is no direct external influence - I think we should just keep it simple.

I also feel, given MNOs are responsible for voting on these proposals, and they will in any case do so at least once a month, that it's a simple process to also vote on the proposal fee. More so, given sites like Dash Central make it quick and easy to vote, then I imagine integrating such feature would be relatively easy. For every person that is hard and fast on 5 dash proposal fees, then fine, they can continue to vote that amount. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

At this point, I just want someone from core to tell me this is reasonably feasible.

@UdjinM6 A new vote command could trigger a spork to modify the proposal fee each month?
 

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
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Jul 12, 2015
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Now we have to deal with the issue of spam. This was discussed earlier in a different thread. For each 10 proposals submitted we could increase the proposal fee by 1/2 the initial proposal fee... So the 1-10 proposal would cost 0.8175 Dash, 11-20 would cost 1.22625 Dash, 21-30 would cost 1.635 Dash, etc... Obviously would take some coding work, but it would be a long term solution.
Sorry but it was brought to our attention this mechanism to prevent spam would not work, simply because an attacker could push the proposal fee up by buying up all the early proposals.

I think we just need to tackle this one step at a time. Personally, I would like to see a new fee structure in place for a few months so that all the FUD can be put to bed, that things won't turn out as bad as people thought.
 
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demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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Put up or shut up. So far, the only people that have submitted governance proposals are Evan, myself and @Technologov
I also offer 20% of my whole dash fortune for the below specific dash governance proposal.
Its not my fault that the governance proposals are so expensive and I cannot add one. So please count @demo nearby Evan, you and @Technologov.

So lets go back before the arrival of @Technologov.

Is anyone interested in creating a multisig address, and do a fundrasing in order to reach the amount of 5 dash and be able to add a proposal in the governance system asking the 5 dash proposal fee to remain the same?

Lets start a list of the people who are interested in this fundrasing. Whenever the list reaches the 5 dash goal, we are going to vote for the person who we trust he creates the multisig address, and vote the minimum (m) number of signatures required to spend the money. Everyone may gives whatever he/she wants, even a single duff is welcome, and he/she may defines whatever terms or conditions he/she desires in order to give the amount. The only expected is to keep his/her promise.

The list follows (it will be updated accordingly):

1. Myself @demo ( XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX ) : I initially offer 20% of my entire fortune in Dash for this puprose ( 20% of my Dash fortune is currently set to 0.1899 dash, since the above Dash address is the only non-empty I possess). Until the creation of the multisig address I keep the right to reduce or increase what I offer. But after the multisig address has been created, I hereby declare, on oath, that I will give the declared amount.
 

priestc

New Member
Mar 5, 2017
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@dashly, the problem I have with pegging the value to silver is that there are no crypto -> silver markets that I know of from where to pull the price from. Whatever currency the fee is denominated in, it needs to have two properties:

1. It have a stable price
2. It have a lot of volume and be implemented on many exchanges.

Silver satisfies criteria 1 better than USD, but does not do better than USD on criteria 2. USD and BTC are the best choices in regards to criteria 2, but the BTC price is not stable at all, so USD wins.

If you make the price be part of the protocol, it needs to be calculated in a completely deterministic way. One node can't have a value for exchange rate and another node with a different value. All nodes need to come to the same value (or at least within a narrow margin). That is why I think existing crypto exchanges like polonies, bittrex and btce should be used to determine the "protocol exchange rate".
 

Kevin Stalker

Member
Feb 18, 2017
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I would vote against any link to usd. I dont live in usa and current us debt linked to the new president makes it all look risky from here. Of course no other currency has my confidence either.

Only gold would work for me. Or perhaps the ftse.

Earlier suggestions of a monthly vote can be a problem because very high positive numbers scew the average, for example a vote of 1000000. Remember that this is critcal. If we break our voting system we cant vote to fix it.
 
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demo

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Earlier suggestions of a monthly vote can be a problem because very high positive numbers scew the average, for example a vote of 1000000. Remember that this is critcal. If we break our voting system we cant vote to fix it.
Man you can solve the problem with those who cast very high number votes in order to screw the average. Excommunicate them!

I really believe that the mean average is the best selection process, if it is combined with a threat of excommunication for those who are far away from the average. So you allow the freedom of choice, but you maintain the excommunication/ostracism threat for the individuals who constantly vote outrageous.

Excommunication/ostracism in the sense that they lose their voting rights, not their money.
 
Last edited:

Kevin Stalker

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Feb 18, 2017
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How about this....

Every month the masternodes vote to for either "up", "same", or "down". The majority wins. If "up" wins the price goes up by 10%, if "down" wins the price goes down by 10%, otherwise it stays the same.

That way we can adapt to situations. If there are too many proposals the price will gradually rise, etc. I cant see how it can be hacked or broken.

Brilliant.
 
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UdjinM6

Official Dash Dev
Dash Core Team
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May 20, 2014
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...
At this point, I just want someone from core to tell me this is reasonably feasible.

@UdjinM6 A new vote command could trigger a spork to modify the proposal fee each month?
It can be done via "traditional" spork, we just need to add a new one on next major release. However, I would like to avoid that and actually try to decrease number of "traditional" sporks and shift control to masternodes by implementing smth which can be seen as "masternode spork". Basically, the idea you described which is to let MNs to vote and decide on some predefined set of network params. From design point this looks pretty much like hardcoded proposals with some special type of trigger (which won't be mined but instead will be "applied" to next budget cycle in some way) and we _should_ be able to reuse much of existing governance code in both dashd and sentinel. We have this on our list but it's too early to say if it really feasible or not. If we fail to make this work in short term, we can reuse good old "traditional" sporks as a temporary fix I guess. Long term - it should be either algorithmic like diff adjustment or "masternode spork" imo.
 

Kevin Stalker

Member
Feb 18, 2017
118
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Man you can solve the problem with those who cast very high number votes in order to screw the average. Excommunicate them!

I really believe that the mean average is the best selection process, if it is combined with a threat of excommunication for those who are far away from the average. So you allow the freedom of choice, but you maintain the excommunication/ostracism threat for those who constantly vote outrageous.
Excommunication rules? Built into the dash protocol? Madness
 

Kevin Stalker

Member
Feb 18, 2017
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78
How about this....

Every month the masternodes vote to for either "up", "same", or "down". The majority wins. If "up" wins the price goes up by 10%, if "down" wins the price goes down by 10%, otherwise it stays the same.

That way we can adapt to situations. If there are too many proposals the price will gradually rise, etc. I cant see how it can be hacked or broken.

Brilliant.
 
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dashly

Member
Mar 5, 2017
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It have a lot of volume and be implemented on many exchanges.
Take a look back at the post where I made the calculation. There doesn't have to be a silver to Dash exhange... There are plenty of Silver to Fiat exchanges, and also plenty of Fiat to Crypto exchanges. So it would work very well. It could be calculated against multiple currency (USD, CNY, RMB, Euro, PHP, etc.) conversions from silver and averaged out so it doesn't matter if a currency is stable or not... It also doesn't matter if there is inflation. Again, I ask that you look at my post where the calculation is done. All you would need is FX exhanges (which there are a lot) and Crypto exchanges (also a lot). Btw, if 4 oz of silver was used, a proposal would cost almost exactly 1 Dash today.

Honestly though, I don't care which solution we go with as long as we go with one. @GrandMasterDash's solution is also a very good solution.
 

dashly

Member
Mar 5, 2017
110
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How about this....

Every month the masternodes vote to for either "up", "same", or "down". The majority wins. If "up" wins the price goes up by 10%, if "down" wins the price goes down by 10%, otherwise it stays the same.

That way we can adapt to situations. If there are too many proposals the price will gradually rise, etc. I cant see how it can be hacked or broken.

Brilliant.
Yes, another good solution!
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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How about this....

Every month the masternodes vote to for either "up", "same", or "down". The majority wins. If "up" wins the price goes up by 10%, if "down" wins the price goes down by 10%, otherwise it stays the same.

That way we can adapt to situations. If there are too many proposals the price will gradually rise, etc. I cant see how it can be hacked or broken.

Brilliant.
Its not a bad idea, but why 10% increase and not 5% increase?
And why the masternodes to vote every month, and not every day, or every year?
And why the majority (50%+1) wins? Who says that?
And what if the result is 33% "up", 33% "same" and 33% "down"? What do you do in that case? Where is the majority (50%+1) then ?

Hardcoded numbers and hardcoded selection processes again.... :rolleyes:
 
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demo

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Masternode votes are counted monthly at the moment.
No they arent. It depends on how you set up the proposal. You could setup a proposal that last for example 12 months, so the masternode votes will be valid for 12 months. So counting the votes every month is hardcoded. You could count every two months, and who says that counting every two tmonths is better that counting every one month?

The votes are counted every month in order to receive the requested budget amount. This is normal for the implementation proposals, but it is irrelevant to the governance proposals, which do not ask any amount from the budget (except the return fee). I think you confuse this, thats why you believe that the votes are counted every month. The monthly count refers to the implementation proposals and it is irrelevant to the governance proposals, which may be counted in whatever time quanta someone wishes. In a governance proposal you could also start counting the votes immediatly after submiting the proposal, and not count the votes in time quanta.

IMHO you should set up a governance proposal that last forever, and count the masternode votes every single tiny second, and for ever. Infinite is better than quantization. This cannot be done in the current DASH governance system because the maximum a proposal can last is 25 months (25 montly budget payements). So the same it is for whatever proposal is clasiffied as governance. After 25 months your "governance law" may be considered as invalid, as long as after the expiration it will not represent the view of the masternodes. So you have to resubmit it. This must be fixed, and the time a proposal lasts should extend more in order to support the governance questions.
 
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demo

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Basically, the idea you described which is to let MNs to vote and decide on some predefined set of network params.
Although I prefer the MNs to be able to vote and decide on all params (and even vote and ignite code chuncks), a predefined set is a good start.
What params do you plan to allow the MNs to vote?
 

GDASHMoney

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Apr 12, 2017
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My solution to this problem is to fix the proposal fee to a fiat amount. Say $50. The next problem is how does the protocol enforce an exchange rate? You could institute an official "dash exchange rate" by taking a vote from master node owners to select the official exchanges whose current market price make up the official exchange rate. For instance, one master node could vote "bittrex,poloniex", while another could vote "poloniex, btce". To get the current price you gather everyone's votes and created a index out of the weighted average of each exchange's market price. Sort of like the winkdex, but with master nodes voting on the sources of the index.
This seems like a practical, fairly simple solution to the problem. A fixed rate in fiat would simplify the issue, since the value of DASH is inherently going to fluctuate.

Also, to not stifle opportunity for creative proposals from all walks of life, let's keep it relatively "affordable" so as not to shoot ourselves in the foot by creating our own barriers to entry for would be, could be DASH marketing geniuses.. (ahem).
 

GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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I would vote against any link to usd. I dont live in usa and current us debt linked to the new president makes it all look risky from here. Of course no other currency has my confidence either.

Only gold would work for me. Or perhaps the ftse.

Earlier suggestions of a monthly vote can be a problem because very high positive numbers scew the average, for example a vote of 1000000. Remember that this is critcal. If we break our voting system we cant vote to fix it.
Please read how median averages work. If I make this proposal, I will have to include a basic math lesson because this keeps coming up. If you have, say, 100 people voting and, say, 40 people voting for 1000000 dash proposal fee, it still doesn't affect the price because the votes are placed into sequence and the middle number selected (or, if there is an even number of votes, it's the average of the two middle votes).

However, I concede a few fail-safes will need to be put into place. For example, if there's less than 1% of MN voting on the proposal fee then the price automatically reverts to 5 dash (in homage to the original value).
 

GDASHMoney

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Please read how median averages work. If I make this proposal, I will have to include a basic math lesson because this keeps coming up. If you have, say, 100 people voting and, say, 40 people voting for 1000000 dash proposal fee, it still doesn't affect the price because the votes are placed into sequence and the middle number selected (or, if there is an even number of votes, it's the average of the two middle votes).

However, I concede a few fail-safes will need to be put into place. For example, if there's less than 1% of MN voting on the proposal fee then the price automatically reverts to 5 dash (in homage to the original value).
What about pegging the fee to something non fiat, like, say the current spot price of an ounce of .999 pure Silver?