Pre-Proposal: Adaptive Proposal Fees

Would you accept this proposal?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 41.7%
  • No

    Votes: 7 58.3%

  • Total voters
    12

GrandMasterDash

Grizzled Member
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Jul 12, 2015
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Currently:
  1. Community unable to agree on proposal fee, and
  2. Community agrees the USD value of dash is likely to change and therefore prefers a longer term solution
Solution:

Once a month, MNOs can voluntarily submit their preferred proposal fee. At the time of the Superblock, the median average is used for the new month. The command would be linked to a spork and look something like this:

gobject vote-many proposal-fee 5

This would also be relatively easy to incorporate into DashCentral et al, and I think it's a very simple procedure for an MNO to carry out.

As with the usual vote-many command option, MNOs would be free to change their vote within the usual constraints.

In the extreme case that a proposal fee is not voted, the fee would be set at 5 dash, in homage to how it all started. (but then again, no one voting on a proposal fee might be symptomatic of a much bigger problem)
 
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demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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Currently:
  1. Community unable to agree on proposal fee, and
  2. Community agrees the USD value of dash is likely to change and therefore prefers a longer term solution
Solution:

Once a month, MNOs can voluntarily submit their preferred proposal fee. At the time of the Superblock, the median average is used for the new month. The command would be linked to a spork and look something like this:

gobject vote-many proposal-fee 5
I agree but I have one objection.

The median average may lead to the followed flawed situation.
imagine 2000 masternodes to vote 1 dash, and another 2000 masternodes to vote 10 dash and a single masternode to vote 1.0001
The median average will give as result 1.0001 dash while a result close to 5 dash seems more rational.

I prefer the mode average, and more specificaly a mode average variation. In general the simple mode average selection process is applied, but If the mode average turns undefined and no result can be extracted by this selection process, you should cut from the votes as much decimals as they are required in order for a mode average selection process to be able to work.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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The median average may lead to the followed flawed situation.
imagine 2000 masternodes to vote 1 dash, and another 2000 masternodes to vote 10 dash and a single masternode to vote 1.0001
The median average will give as result 1.0001 dash while a result close to 5 dash seems more rational.

I prefer the mode average.
I think a lot of people would be happy if 2000 MNs actually bothered to vote. But anyway, by the time you had 2000 votes, I doubt there would be any real difference between the mode and the median. Besides, you've calculated it wrong: http://www.mathsisfun.com/median.html
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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I agree but I have one objection.

The median average may lead to the followed flawed situation.
imagine 2000 masternodes to vote 1 dash, and another 2000 masternodes to vote 10 dash and a single masternode to vote 1.0001
The median average will give as result 1.0001 dash while a result close to 5 dash seems more rational.

I prefer the mode average, and more specificaly a mode average variation. If the mode average turns undefined and no result can be extracted by this selection process, to cut as much decimals as they are required in order for a mode average selection process to be able to work.
Realistically there is no way such a scenario would occur.. the Masternodes aren't going to vote completely 50/50 split with nothing in between
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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I think a lot of people would be happy if 2000 MNs actually bothered to vote. But anyway, by the time you had 2000 votes, I doubt there would be any real difference between the mode and the median. Besides, you've calculated it wrong: http://www.mathsisfun.com/median.html
No I didnt.
You have 2000 votes that voted 1, you have 2000 votes that voted 10, and you have the medium vote which is 1.0001
I think my calculations are correct.
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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Realistically there is no way such a scenario would occur.. the Masternodes aren't going to vote completely 50/50 split with nothing in between
The more close to 50/50 split they are, the more unfair the median average becomes.
Why choose a potentialy unfair selection process, when you can use my mode average variation which cannot be unfair in any case?
Or , can you show me a case where my mode average variation selection process turns unfair?
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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The more close to 50/50 split they are, the more unfair the median average becomes.
Why choose a potentialy unfair selection process, when you can use my mode average variation which cannot be unfair in any case?
Or , can you show me a case where my mode average variation selection process turns unfair?
Yes, suppose 4000 Masternodes vote between 1 and 2 dash, all with different exact values, and then 5 masternodes vote for 20 dash exactly. The mode would be 20 but it would be more reasonable for the number to be between 1 and 2.

Of course, such a situation would be unlikely, just like yours
 

demo

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Yes, suppose 4000 Masternodes vote between 1 and 2 dash, all with different exact values, and then 5 masternodes vote for 20 dash exactly. The mode would be 20 but it would be more reasonable for the number to be between 1 and 2.

Of course, such a situation would be unlikely, just like yours
you've calculated it wrong: http://www.mathsisfun.com/mode.html
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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@demo a better example

400 votes for 0.1 dash
550 votes for 0.5 dash
600 votes for 1 dash
500 votes for 1.5 dash
580 votes for 2 dash
601 votes for 5 dash

5 dash is the mode.
 

demo

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No, you've calculated it wrong. In my example 5 is the highest frequency, which belongs to the 20 dash votes. If the votes between 1 and 2 are all distinct values, as I said.
I didnt notice the distinct values. You are right.
In that case a more complicated selection process should be used. Α mode average variation version 2
A mode average should be applied, along with the cut of the decimals and some rounding to the votes in case the mode average gives a total different result that the result the mean average and the median average are giving.
Let me think about it I will come back.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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I didnt notice the distinct values. You are right.
In that case a more complicated selection process should be used.
A mode average should be applied, along with the cut of the decimals and some rounding to the votes in case the mode average gives a total different result that the result the mean average and the median average are giving.
Let me think about it I will come back.
lol, you do that :-D

Honestly, if the kind of extremes and flukes you're talking about actually happened, I would be happy to settle on the median, no less than flipping a coin on the two contentious numbers. In any case, it's just not going to happen.
 

demo

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@demo a better example
400 votes for 0.1 dash
550 votes for 0.5 dash
600 votes for 1 dash
500 votes for 1.5 dash
580 votes for 2 dash
601 votes for 5 dash
5 dash is the mode.
Ok let me explain to you my mode average variation version 2.
  1. First we apply the mode average.
  2. The mode average is 5 dash.
  3. In order to check whether it is fair, we check the mean average.
  4. the mean average is 1.79666.
  5. The two selection processes have big difference, they can converge, so let them converge.
  6. I cut the decimals and do the roundings:

400 votes for 0 dash
550+600=1150 votes for 1 dash
500+580=1080 votes for 2 dash
601 votes for 5 dash.

The mode average is now 1 dash and it is much closer to the mean average.
So the final result is 1.

Instead of cutting all the decimals you may also start the rounding to another decimal. For example do the rounding to the third decimal (the 1.00Χ) then to the second, then to the first. Do some rounds, until the best converge is reached.

Do you understand now my mode average variation version 2?
 
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TroyDASH

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Jul 31, 2015
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Ok let me explain to you my variation version 2.
The mode average is 5 dash which is obviously unfair.
But the mean average is 1.79666 which seems more fair.

They two selection process have big difference, so let them converge.
I cut the decimal and do the roundings:

400 votes for 0 dash
550+600=1150 votes for 1 dash
500+580=1080 votes for 2 dash
601 votes for 5 dash.

The mode average is now 1 dash, and this is more fair.

Do you understand now my variation version 2?

The way we cut the decimals and do the rounding may be more granural.
Using rounding or cutting decimals to group them together seems arbitrary. Much more intuitive to simply take the median.
RIP this thread
 

demo

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Using rounding or cutting decimals to group them together seems arbitrary. Much more intuitive to simply take the median.
RIP this thread
All selection processes are arbitrary. Not only mine.
The median is also arbitrary. And it is not intuitive, I already told you why:

The more close to 50/50 split they are, the more unfair the median average becomes.
Why choose a potentialy unfair selection process, when you can use my mode average variation vesion 2 which cannot be unfair in any case?
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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You have to prove your quotes.
I gave you an example where the median average turns tottaly unfair.
Its your turn, please give me one example where my mode average variation 2 turns unfair.
Can you?
5. The two selection processes have big difference, so let them converge.
How do you tell whether they have a big difference? Define big difference. Is there a cutoff where anything above is a big difference, and anything below is not?

Example:
2000 votes for 0.1 dash
1900 votes for 1 dash
2001 votes for 5 dash

The mode in your average variation 2 is still 5 dash.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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@demo

If we accepted a demo endorsed fee structure, someone else would come along and say otherwise. And all for what, a very extreme example? Who's to say that the extreme examples you invent might actually shake things up in general e.g. getting more people to vote, or lead the way to finding a lower / higher price. The answer to that is unknown. I would much rather have a simple solution than spending a lifetime looking for the perfection you'll never find.

In all likelihood, the fee will be voted from 0.1 to 5 dash. and I'm just not going to quibble about 0.5 difference

Given MNOs are being paid to make decisions, I don''t think it's much to ask that they also make such decisions every month.
 

demo

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@demo

If we accepted a demo endorsed fee structure, someone else would come along and say otherwise. And all for what, a very extreme example? Who's to say that the extreme examples you invent might actually shake things up in general e.g. getting more people to vote, or lead the way to finding a lower / higher price. The answer to that is unknown. I would much rather have a simple solution than spending a lifetime looking for the perfection you'll never find.

In all likelihood, the fee will be voted from 0.1 to 5 dash. and I'm just not going to quibble about 0.5 difference

Given MNOs are being paid to make decisions, I don''t think it's much to ask that they also make such decisions every month.
In that case why dont you use the mean average?
In your closed example, where everyone votes reasonable, the mean average is a much more fair selection process than the median one.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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In that case why dont you use the mean average?
In your closed example, where everyone votes reasonable, the mean average is a much more fair selection process than the median one.
Just one person voting for 100000 dash fee would have an impact. You could put in limits but then that would be finding a solution to a problem you just created. With the median, one or two people could try an outragious proposal fee and it would have zero impact.
 

demo

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5. The two selection processes have big difference, so let them converge.
How do you tell whether they have a big difference? Define big difference. Is there a cutoff where anything above is a big difference, and anything below is not?

Example:
2000 votes for 0.1 dash
1900 votes for 1 dash
2001 votes for 5 dash

The mode in your average variation 2 is still 5 dash.
I dont judge their difference. I have already told you the way I converge the mode average with the mean average. I progressively cut the decimals. Thats the method.

But in you example, even if I cut the decimals, a converge is not possible. Are you looking forward to hearing how I converge the mode average to the medium average?

I dont know yet. I will think about it, and if found an answer I will tell you.:confused:
 
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demo

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With the median, one or two people could try an outragious proposal fee and it would have zero impact.
It is the same with the mode average. One or two people trying an outragious proposal has zero impact.

The important thing is to let the voters see the number votes of the others and let them change their number vote whenever they wish. In worst case let them use the double vote (number, selection process) and give them the right to change the prefered selection process also, whenever they wish.

In the worst case of the median average, if the voters are polarized, then they will change their vote towards the middle in order not to let the middle voter (1.0001) to choose whatever he wants. There is also the risk for the numerous edge voters to give bribery to the few middle voters.

In the worst case of my mode average variation version 2 , the people who are close enough (0.1, 1) they will unite eachother in order not to let the most loved number (5) to pass. The association is the most possible scenario and the bridery is not as possible as it is in the worst case of the median average.

Both worst cases are rare but I think the polarization is more probable to happen, thus it is more possible for the median average to fail. Let the Statisticians do their research now, and reveal us which worst case is more probable.
 
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priestc

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My solution to this problem is to fix the proposal fee to a fiat amount. Say $50. The next problem is how does the protocol enforce an exchange rate? You could institute an official "dash exchange rate" by taking a vote from master node owners to select the official exchanges whose current market price make up the official exchange rate. For instance, one master node could vote "bittrex,poloniex", while another could vote "poloniex, btce". To get the current price you gather everyone's votes and created a index out of the weighted average of each exchange's market price. Sort of like the winkdex, but with master nodes voting on the sources of the index.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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My solution to this problem is to fix the proposal fee to a fiat amount. Say $50. The next problem is how does the protocol enforce an exchange rate? You could institute an official "dash exchange rate" by taking a vote from master node owners to select the official exchanges whose current market price make up the official exchange rate. For instance, one master node could vote "bittrex,poloniex", while another could vote "poloniex, btce". To get the current price you gather everyone's votes and created a index out of the weighted average of each exchange's market price. Sort of like the winkdex, but with master nodes voting on the sources of the index.
Nice idea if you believe in fiat, in which case, why are you in crypto? What happens if the US dollar hyper-inflates / becomes volatile, or your preferred currency is EUR, GBP, CNY, YEN? If we had to denominate in something else, I would rather ask, "how many grams of gold would you give me for this dash?" But ultimately, it's far easier and less subjective if we simply denominate in dash.
 
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priestc

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I only "believe" in fiat because I have to pay my rent, elecricity, water bill, groceries, etc in fiat. When the day comes that USD hyperinflates, then such an index price will not be needed anymore. If USD hyperinflates, it'll be many years or even decades from now anyways. Most likely in the mean time, Dash is likely to be more volatile than USD, therefore pricing should be denominated in USD.