Development Update - Oct 1, 2014

JGCMiner

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I like Proof-of-work, I think it's important for keeping the ecosystem healthy. In balance with a proof-of-service system, I think we'll do well.

Benefits of proof-of-work:
- In a pure proof-of-stake system, the coins are distributed to only the ones that are invested. In a proof-of-work system, you have a wider base of people receiving compensation.
- Proof-of-work sets a price due to the electricity cost of producing the coins.

Proof-of-stake:
- Would require that all masternode operators have their money on a "hot" node. I think one of the best things about the current masternode system is the fact that you can run a masternode with no money in it.
- Also has a incompatibility with proof-of-service, in the existing system we can enforce that ports are open to get paid, or that masternodes are processing Darksend transactions successfully (it doesn't do this currently, but it can in the future).

Solution: Sync a common list across the whole network. Payee and payment amount can be enforced this way, and the reward will increase for 1 1/2 years. First adjustments are 5%, followed by 2.5%, then the last few adjustments are 2.5% every 2 months.

Code:
https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commit/ad59f33e44620cbaa44f33d25d22cac1329beff6

We can start updating testnet and testing this. This will be the last hard fork for months (the next one will be for later revision of InstantX, which is months away.)
Interesting.... This "reward", are you talking about the block reward or the MN payment percentage?
 

UdjinM6

Official Dash Dev
Dash Core Team
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May 20, 2014
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I like Proof-of-work, I think it's important for keeping the ecosystem healthy. In balance with a proof-of-service system, I think we'll do well.

Benefits of proof-of-work:
- In a pure proof-of-stake system, the coins are distributed to only the ones that are invested. In a proof-of-work system, you have a wider base of people receiving compensation.
- Proof-of-work sets a price due to the electricity cost of producing the coins.

Proof-of-stake:
- Would require that all masternode operators have their money on a "hot" node. I think one of the best things about the current masternode system is the fact that you can run a masternode with no money in it.
- Also has a incompatibility with proof-of-service, in the existing system we can enforce that ports are open to get paid, or that masternodes are processing Darksend transactions successfully (it doesn't do this currently, but it can in the future).

Solution: Sync a common list across the whole network. Payee and payment amount can be enforced this way, and the reward will increase for 1 1/2 years. First adjustments are 5%, followed by 2.5%, then the last few adjustments are 2.5% every 2 months.

Code:
https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commit/ad59f33e44620cbaa44f33d25d22cac1329beff6

We can start updating testnet and testing this. This will be the last hard fork for months (the next one will be for later revision of InstantX, which is months away.)
Can we test enforcement too please?
 

eduffield

Core Developer
Mar 9, 2014
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eduffield Your solution "to sync a list across the whole network." Do you mean you are taking every single MN into account and distributing the 20% MN reward to every MN?

Are you also proposing to increase the block reward; As it is now with 5 darkcoin per block, are you proposing 5.25 per block with the same 20% to MN's 80% to miners?
It's a list of who gets paid for which block. Something like this:

{
'10001' : "Masternode1",
'10002' : "Masternode2",
'10003' : "Masternode3",
'10004' : "Masternode4",
}

Every client has the list and when they think they've won, they can prove it by propagating a "win" message. That message is then checked by CalculateScore.

I'm not messing with the total reward, just the split between the miners and the masternode operators. So right now it's 80/20, in a month it'll be 75/25, then 70/30, etc.
 

HinnomTX

Active Member
Jul 22, 2014
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Exactly my points, full agreement!
Maybe you shouldn't have housed your mining farm in the bedroom....wives don't like that :tongue:
LOL! I knew my comment would conjure up pictures like that. I really only had two mining rigs in an office, but even with just two rigs the maintenance time was pretty significant. I have real respect for miners after my 6 month journey into the hobby.
 

Propulsion

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It's a list of who gets paid for which block. Something like this:

{
'10001' : "Masternode1",
'10002' : "Masternode2",
'10003' : "Masternode3",
'10004' : "Masternode4",
}

Every client has the list and when they think they've won, they can prove it by propagating a "win" message. That message is then checked by CalculateScore.

I'm not messing with the total reward, just the split between the miners and the masternode operators. So right now it's 80/20, in a month it'll be 75/25, then 70/30, etc.
Based on my cost analyzation that's not bad. Especially considering how some people are claiming that the mining can be improved upon by 400%.
 

thelonecrouton

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Apr 15, 2014
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Solution: Sync a common list across the whole network. Payee and payment amount can be enforced this way, and the reward will increase for 1 1/2 years. First adjustments are 5%, followed by 2.5%, then the last few adjustments are 2.5% every 2 months.

Code:
https://github.com/darkcoin/darkcoin/commit/ad59f33e44620cbaa44f33d25d22cac1329beff6
I can't see it in the code, what's the roadmap?

eg,
Nov '14 +5% to 25%
Dec '14 +5% to 30%
Jan '15 +5% to 35%
Feb '15 +2.5% to 37.5%
...
Feb '16 +2.5% to ?% ... ?

Or is that still TBC? I'm liking the idea of 60/40 by February and 50/50 by June... :D
 

crowning

Well-known Member
May 29, 2014
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Alpha Centauri Bc
I can't see it in the code, what's the roadmap?
Right here, increases every 30 days:

Code:
+ if(nHeight > 150000) ret += blockValue / 20; //25%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*1)) ret += blockValue / 20; //30%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*2)) ret += blockValue / 20; //35%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*3)) ret += blockValue / 40; //37.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*4)) ret += blockValue / 40; //40%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*5)) ret += blockValue / 40; //42.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*6)) ret += blockValue / 40; //45%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*7)) ret += blockValue / 40; //47.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*9)) ret += blockValue / 40; //50%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*11)) ret += blockValue / 40; //52.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*13)) ret += blockValue / 40; //55%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*15)) ret += blockValue / 40; //57.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*17)) ret += blockValue / 40; //60%
 

Captain_Tom

New Member
Oct 3, 2014
11
5
3
So I made an account to comment on this thread. I gotta say that I hope the developers are taking into account the reaction to these plans. DRK's value dropped noticeably instead of rising, and every one of my friends invested in DRK thinks this continually increasing MN reward idea is completely ridiculous. It just makes this whole coin look like a giant scam, and the fact that it has Dark in the name doesn't help it (It's a great name, but it does have some negative connotations about it that can be amplified by some of the things being proposed here).

Also, I hope everyone here realizes the massive potential of DRK. Yes, it was initially just thought of an anonymous coin, but with the introduction of instantX it can be so much more. Instant, anonymous transactions could turn this into the digital cash we have all been waiting for (And Litecoin failed to become). As such, this needs to be thought of as a coin that can see widespread and broad adoption of consumers. Think long term here guys...
 

thelonecrouton

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Apr 15, 2014
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Right here, increases every 30 days:

Code:
+ if(nHeight > 150000) ret += blockValue / 20; //25%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*1)) ret += blockValue / 20; //30%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*2)) ret += blockValue / 20; //35%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*3)) ret += blockValue / 40; //37.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*4)) ret += blockValue / 40; //40%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*5)) ret += blockValue / 40; //42.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*6)) ret += blockValue / 40; //45%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*7)) ret += blockValue / 40; //47.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*9)) ret += blockValue / 40; //50%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*11)) ret += blockValue / 40; //52.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*13)) ret += blockValue / 40; //55%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*15)) ret += blockValue / 40; //57.5%
+ if(nHeight > 150000+((576*30)*17)) ret += blockValue / 40; //60%
Ah, thanks, I was searching darksend.cpp, hadn't scrolled down to main.cpp... :oops:
 

thelonecrouton

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Apr 15, 2014
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So I made an account to comment on this thread. I gotta say that I hope the developers are taking into account the reaction to these plans. DRK's value dropped noticeably instead of rising, and every one of my friends invested in DRK thinks this continually increasing MN reward idea is completely ridiculous. It just makes this whole coin look like a giant scam, and the fact that it has Dark in the name doesn't help it (It's a great name, but it does have some negative connotations about it that can be amplified by some of the things being proposed here).

Also, I hope everyone here realizes the massive potential of DRK. Yes, it was initially just thought of an anonymous coin, but with the introduction of instantX it can be so much more. Instant, anonymous transactions could turn this into the digital cash we have all been waiting for (And Litecoin failed to become). As such, this needs to be thought of as a coin that can see widespread and broad adoption of consumers. Think long term here guys...
And guess what makes InstanTX possible? And anonymous transactions? What gives value and utility to the coin? That's right, Masternodes! :tongue:
 

splawik21

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I have a couple of MNs. Don't kill me but wouldn't be better to get 2% every month till end of next year and in december getting to 50/50???
 
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nsimmons

New Member
Jul 20, 2014
10
5
3
So I made an account to comment on this thread. I gotta say that I hope the developers are taking into account the reaction to these plans. DRK's value dropped noticeably instead of rising, and every one of my friends invested in DRK thinks this continually increasing MN reward idea is completely ridiculous. It just makes this whole coin look like a giant scam, and the fact that it has Dark in the name doesn't help it (It's a great name, but it does have some negative connotations about it that can be amplified by some of the things being proposed here).

Also, I hope everyone here realizes the massive potential of DRK. Yes, it was initially just thought of an anonymous coin, but with the introduction of instantX it can be so much more. Instant, anonymous transactions could turn this into the digital cash we have all been waiting for (And Litecoin failed to become). As such, this needs to be thought of as a coin that can see widespread and broad adoption of consumers. Think long term here guys...
POW provides equilibrium, if the price is low, hash rate drops, and vice versa. Artificially meddling in this will create distortions.

Why is it that everyone, except current holders of multiple master nodes, thinks this idea is ridiculous? The master nodes only provide value if they are in demand. At $2.38 a coin, they are not in demand. Unless their electricity is free, miners are mining at a loss. Taking even more of their reward away, in hopes it spurs demand for coin is a huge risk. I won't mine at a 60% loss with crossed fingers.

The block reward payout should be a function of the coins USD price. As the price rises, reward can be shifted from miners to nodes. The system can find its own equilibrium, with both miners and nodes making profit, and not pitting the two against each other. A system should be created with a low barrier to entry were everyone is rewarded proportionally for their effort.
 

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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And guess what makes InstanTX possible? And anonymous transactions? What gives value and utility to the coin? That's right, Masternodes! :tongue:
This is what happens when people who don't understand what's going on get a keyboard...

Fewer DRKs == higher value for an already scarce coin... Mining was satoshi's experiment. It works, but it's not the only metric we should be using. Money hosers who don't understand how it works will get mad. They should sell their rigs to people who do understand, just like traders who don't understand fundamental software development should sell their coins so I can buy them...
 

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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POW provides equilibrium, if the price is low, hash rate drops, and vice versa. Artificially meddling in this will create distortions.

Why is it that everyone, except current holders of multiple master nodes, thinks this idea is ridiculous? The master nodes only provide value if they are in demand. At $2.38 a coin, they are not in demand. Unless their electricity is free, miners are mining at a loss. Taking even more of their reward away, in hopes it spurs demand for coin is a huge risk. I won't mine at a 60% loss with crossed fingers.

The block reward payout should be a function of the coins USD price. As the price rises, reward can be shifted from miners to nodes. The system can find its own equilibrium, with both miners and nodes making profit, and not pitting the two against each other. A system should be created with a low barrier to entry were everyone is rewarded proportionally for their effort.
http://thepeoplescube.com/store/the_peoples_cube.php

No, I will not let this turn into BitCoinTalk... Anyone who takes this conversation one reply further should be banned.
 

camosoul

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$2,380 Masternode is cheaper than $10,000 Neptune that won't even pay for itself. The masternode is money itself, and doesn't need to pay for itself when it can simply be cashed out if needed.

Low barrier to entry achieved.

Mining is already a thing that you can do only if you can afford ASICs. MNs are available to anyone with the DRKs, and you get them back no matter what...
 

nsimmons

New Member
Jul 20, 2014
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$2,380 Masternode is cheaper than $10,000 Neptune that won't even pay for itself. The masternode is money itself, and doesn't need to pay for itself when it can simply be cashed out if needed.

Low barrier to entry achieved.
Is it? for a college student who is starving? That's an entire semesters tuition. How about a second, or third world participant?
 

camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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Is it? for a college student who is starving? That's an entire semesters tuition. How about a second, or third world participant?
Your argument is that 1DRK costs more than a Neptune and has a worse ROI? You have lost already... Stop making this forum into BCT.
 

nsimmons

New Member
Jul 20, 2014
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Your argument is that 1DRK costs more than a Neptune and has a worse ROI? You have lost already... Stop making this forum into BCT.
That is not my argument, quote me. Stop making things up.

My argument is someone with old hardware or limited means can participate. This is more of the same, you have your pile, now destroy the rest to make yours more valuable. Disgusting.
 

thelonecrouton

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Apr 15, 2014
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Is it? for a college student who is starving? That's an entire semesters tuition. How about a second, or third world participant?
You could employ starving college students to run on a treadmill to help power your 40 GPU's that are such 'hard work.' :D
 
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camosoul

Grizzled Member
Sep 19, 2014
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You haven't even made a coherent argument to rebut at this point... My 30GH/s BFL unit isn't terribly useful, either. I had a hell of a lot less than "starving college students" have when I bought it! Am I whining that even my ASIC isn't worth anything now? You've made no point. DRK does not exist for the purpose of making poor people rich on old mining hardware. It's not even the same algo... Are you drunk? The future gets here eventually, sorry you didn't notice. Is it the progression of time itself you find disgusting?

Seriously, get out.

Maybe, just maybe, starving college students are starving and studying in college for a reason, and it's not the reason they think it is... If you do nothing but make bad life decisions just because you see everyone else making bad decisions and you follow along... This isn't even about crypto, much less DRK. No one can save you from yourself. Not even the Great and Powerful Evan. Quit whining.

Get out.

DRK is a currency, not a get-rich-for-losers scheme. Some people may abuse it as one, but they show themselves by whining exactly as you have. Here's your sign. Now stop mucking up the thread, sweetie. Men are talking.
 
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UdjinM6

Official Dash Dev
Dash Core Team
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May 20, 2014
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[irony]
One thing is not clear for me - if DRK is so unprofitable to mine why do miners mine it? Why don't they go mine something else, something more profitable? Block reward will go up and everyone will be mining at profit and everyone will be happy...
[/irony]
;)
 

thelonecrouton

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Apr 15, 2014
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[irony]
One thing is not clear for me - if DRK is so unprofitable to mine why do miners mine it? Why don't they go mine something else, something more profitable? Block reward will go up and everyone will be mining at profit and everyone will be happy...
[/irony]
;)
I've heard the latest AMD cards allow you to overclock core, mem, and self-righteousness.
 

camosoul

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Sep 19, 2014
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That is not my argument, quote me. Stop making things up.

My argument is someone with old hardware or limited means can participate. This is more of the same, you have your pile, now destroy the rest to make yours more valuable. Disgusting.
I've never destroyed anyone's coins, or diminished their ability to make their own. You're a liar.

Your argument is still that buying a Masternode is more expensive and riskier than buying mining hardware. You're a liar twice.

Mine with your Celeron. Nobody is stopping you. My worthless SHA256/DR hardware cost more than everything you own and it's useless. I',m not accusing anyone of "destroying my pile." I used my brain and throw my hashes at xpool.ca. Get a grip man.

If college students are so smart, why is it that they made it all the way to puberty and still can't teach themselves anything? This is why they're starving. Google exists. It made college obsolete. Paying for someone to force-feed you information that you could easily get for free is dumb.
 
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oblox

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Aug 6, 2014
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That is not my argument, quote me. Stop making things up.

My argument is someone with old hardware or limited means can participate. This is more of the same, you have your pile, now destroy the rest to make yours more valuable. Disgusting.
Just like anyone that uses the money spent on hardware that buys DRK coins can pool with other holders in the event they hold less than 1K and have a masternode. Certainly you will be seeing more of these offers.
 
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darkmonk

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Oct 3, 2014
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The argument about the barriers of entry to mining vs. mastercoin doesn't have much to do with the development of Darkcoin itself. Can we be done derailing the thread with inflammatory statements about bitcointalk and a discussion about mining rigs vs. masternode rigs?
 

splawik21

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I think that Evan has the best glass ball and he assumes that with time the POW will get more advanced hardware so taking 80% will not be very fair game.
I`m happy to hear that this will go on gradually and not instantly.
If some miners will go away this is the autobalance system so higher block reward will give more for both miners/noders.
Just do our job best we can.
Have I said we have a genius dev?