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DashPay Point-of-Sale

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by kodaxx, Dec 26, 2016.

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Would you support this proposal if it was submitted?

  1. Yes

    26 vote(s)
    81.3%
  2. Yes, with some changes

    5 vote(s)
    15.6%
  3. No

    1 vote(s)
    3.1%
  1. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Hello, I would like some feedback on my planned proposal. The official pre-proposal can be found at this link:

    //vv OFFICIAL PROPOSAL LINKED BELOW vv
    DashPay Point-of-Sale Proposal v.01

    [​IMG]

    What is DashPay POS?

    DashPay POS is a free mobile point-of-sale app designed to run on mobile platforms (Android, iOS, Windows Phone), desktop platforms (Linux, macOS, Windows), and standalone hardware terminals. This project is designed for merchants to be able to accept Dash quickly, easily, and securely. In order to further adoption of Dash we need to make it easy for merchants to accept Dash as a form of payment. This system will enable them to do so.

    Budget Breakdown

    50 Dash - Nitya (server) - development efforts, testing, hosting fees
    50 Dash - kodaxx (client) - development efforts, testing, graphics
    60 Dash - Hardware terminals, ledgers/keepkey/trezor (compatibility testing)
    5 Dash - Reimbursement for this proposal
    -------------------------
    Total: 165 Dash

    More Project Info

    official project proposal: click here
    alpha source code: click here
    demo video: click here

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    Some FAQ:

    -What is the objective?

    This project addresses a basic need of Dash - adoption. This project will be a tool to help merchants accept dash easily once they’ve decided to participate in the Dash ecosystem. Not only will this help those who have decided this, but it may sway others who would like to, but think it is too difficult.

    The objective of this project is to reduce the complexity for merchants willing to accept Dash as payment, and to create a great experience for customers wanting to purchase with Dash.

    -Why use this instead of a mobile wallet?
    One of the main reasons a merchant would use this app over the standard mobile wallet would be to have an experience they are familiar with. It has been designed to be very closely related to credit card processing machines in this respect.

    The main reason however, besides ease of use and familiarity, is the fact that this terminal is not a wallet. In fact, it only generates the address and payment requests to a wallet that the merchant controls on a different machine. This means that there is no control of the coins from the POS software. This situation works especially well when you have employees that may access this machine as well.

    Plus, keeping your private keys offline is always a bonus!

    -What are the features planned for this release?
    • Works on Android, iOS, Windows Phone - Mac, Windows, Linux
    • Compatible with Trezor/KeepKey/Ledger Hardware Wallets
    • Generate a new account on first run. Customize store name, create backups, etc.
    • Enter sale amounts in your local currency (only supports USD at the moment) and have them converted to an amount in Dash using http://coinmarketcap.com exchange rate
    • A QR code payment request is generated with your receiving address, sale amount, store name, and 'use InstantSend' for your customers to scan
    • Unique addresses are used for every sale that are a part of your HD wallet. One private key
    • Get an on-screen notification when the requested amount is received at your address
    • Detects partial payments and allows multiple parties to pay the total amount owed
    -Are there features planned beyond this release?
    • NFC touch-to-pay with mobile phones using Dash Wallet
    • Multiple currency support (USD, CAD, UAD, etc.)
    • Offline payments system using plastic EMV-type cards for customers
    • Ability to have payments converted to fiat instantly

    License info
    This software (client, server, everything) will be released under a free open source license (MIT license). If this project is funded we do not intend to code in any percentage charge to the merchant or any other cost mechanism.

    Any thoughts?
     
    #1 kodaxx, Dec 26, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
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  2. alex-ru

    alex-ru Grizzled Member
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    Thanks for this project.

    As most of the people have no experience with PoS-software, could you please explain in simple words, why merchant will use this app instead of using standard Dash Wallet (mobile for example) for receiving payments in Dash? What are benefits of this app for them?

    Thanks.
     
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  3. Stealth923

    Stealth923 Well-known Member
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    My suggestion is to split payments up dependant on delivery of each phase of the project instead of the entire amount upfront.

    We have had issues with certain projects not delivering on promises lately.
     
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  4. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
    Dash Core Team Moderator

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    Nice!
    I would suggest to feed rates from few sources, instead of coinmarketcap.com only, and then calculate an average of some sort (or give user a choice where to fetch from). Could calculate DASH/USD rate by fetching BTC/USD from some large btc exchange like Bitstamp and DASH/BTC from Poloniex for example, should be pretty simple afaik. For websocket "push" version you can grab some code for both exchanges there https://github.com/UdjinM6/bitlisten/blob/gh-pages/src/ratebox.js if you wish.
    Also, make sure to make app description as neutral as possible when submitting to Apple appstore to avoid rejection/delisting :rolleyes:

    EDIT:
    PS. finally someone is using that proposal template, that's kind of a xmas gift to @kot I guess :D
     
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  5. Dash_Canada

    Dash_Canada New Member

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    Cool idea, Kodaxx!

    One thing any POS will need is a CAD / USD dollar amount for merchandise, which will automatically be converted into current DASH equivalent.

    This is a feature that is sorely lacking in current wallets, as well.

    :)
     
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  6. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Of course! One of the main reasons a merchant would use this app over the standard mobile wallet would be to have an experience they are familiar with. It has been designed to be very closely related to credit card processing machines in this respect.

    The main reason however, besides ease of use and familiarity, is the fact that this terminal is not a wallet. In fact, it only generates the address and payment requests to a wallet that the merchant controls on a different machine. This means that there is no control of the coins from the POS software. This situation works especially well when you have employees that may access this machine as well.

    Plus, keeping your private keys offline is always a bonus!

    This is something I have attempted with this proposal. This proposal is for a v.01 with a base set of features, or a 'phase 1', if you will.

    It's possible to receive the separate portions of dash upon delivery of the individual products (ie when client app is delivered, receive that portion. When server is delivered, receive that portion, etc.)

    Phase 2 and 3 will bring much more exciting and innovative features.

    Right now we're playing catch-up to bitcoins current merchant features, then...We surpass them.

    Thank you for the link! This is totally possible, do you mind explaining the benefits of doing it this way?

    This is definitely something I have planned. Multi currency support is very important.

    Unfortunately I do not have it planned for the v.01 release, but I will structure code for easy additions later.

    I do hear you though! Dash is global, and the point-of-sale app will be as well!
     
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  7. t0dd

    t0dd Active Member

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    Note: Airbitz is looking to incorporate Dash... and they have a really nice "Merchant Mode" for their app. Just a heads up that there may be some competition in this space. Check them out to make sure you can differentiate significantly.
     
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  8. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Thank you! I will definitely check them out. I have some ideas that I think will differentiate this, not only from airbitz, but maybe from anything in crypto space
     
  9. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Of course, I'm open to all criticism. Where are you suggesting I bend?
    I plan to release it under the MIT license so the dash community can also use it as they see fit. What if I stop development? This way it can continue.

    I don't really think of open source software as socialism. I'm far from a socialist myself.
     
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  10. mranderson010

    mranderson010 New Member

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    I really like the quality of your proposal and all the work you have done before formally submitting it.
     
  11. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Thank you! I'm still continuing to work. If you're going to be at btcMiami on the 16th - you can most likely catch a demo there!
     
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  12. mranderson010

    mranderson010 New Member

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    There is already merchant POS software for DASH. I am an Ambassador for BlockPay which in my opinion has the best POS system out there since it takes instant BTC, ETH, DASH, LTC, STEEM, etc; you can look at it at blockpay's website (can't post yet).

    Would you be interested in doing a joint venture with BlockPay and integrate their software with yours? One way it could work is your hardware could still accept hundreds of crypto-currencies like their BlockPay "s" does, but instead of converting to bitUSD (or bitEUR/bitCYN) automatically for merchants, the merchants could have an option to receive DASH instead; that would be the part you would probably need to code.

    Combined with your hard wallet integration and other hardware features, I think your device would be far superior to any physical POS the credit card folks could ever come up with. Plus, they are already partnered with Odoo so your hardware/software could run right along cc payment options.
     
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  13. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Very interesting. I will talk with nitya about this. Have them reach out to me on dash nation slack! I'd like to know more
     
  14. mranderson010

    mranderson010 New Member

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    I represent BlockPay and I am on Dash Nation Slack. What is your handle there? I'm @mranderson there. edit......I found you and sent a message.
     
  15. fernando

    fernando Powered by Dash
    Dash Core Team Foundation Member Moderator

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    I really like the project. Merchants having several options is not a problem in my opinion, the more the merrier. However, I'm gonna be with @camosoul here and say that without a revenue model I'm afraid this can fall into oblivion. Being open source is not enough for other developers to develop if you move on. Maybe in the future, with a big installed base of merchants it could be fine, but with our current situation that won't happen. I would rather have some plans on how to support/maintain this. If that involves some payments somewhere, so be it. Or maybe a support proposal down the line, I'm not sure.

    One stupid and yet unpolished idea to help adoption/maintenance of your software... how about if on installation you could include an address for a small fee on payments? that way people would chase merchants to use this software and would support the merchant because they would be earning money. Kinda like an affiliate program.
     
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  16. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Hey @fernando,

    Thanks for the input here! One of the great things about how this project is set up is the ability to have it both ways I think. For starters, the MIT license will allow any business to come along and create a revenue model around this software, but will also keep the parent project free.

    Nitya and I have been in this discussion for awhile now - we plan to add services on top of this POS system (ie, instant fiat conversion for a percentage fee, selling hardware terminals, etc.) but we would still like to keep the base project free for the community to use as well (and of course, push improvements to the parent project).

    Many companies already operate this way with a few key products. Adobe does this with brackets/edgecode and cordova/phonegap. For example, Adobe bought the company that made Cordova and donated it to the Apache foundation, and made a fork of it themselves and named it Phonegap. Phonegap is a "cost" service that provides extended API's and automated build tools, etc. We think this model will work well for us.

    I hope I've addressed your concerns - if you need any clarification, I'd be more than happy to provide that for you.
     
    #16 kodaxx, Jan 5, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  17. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Part of my theory on adoption has to do with solutions like you mention here feeling "hacky" and unprofessional/unfamiliar. My goal is to make DashPay POS a legitimate and professional business solution. My mom owns a clothing store and has been in business for ~25 years and there is no way she is learning how to print out QR codes, etc. She takes one look at a Dash address and her eyes go cross.

    Speaking of my mom - what you mention here is also true. There's no way she is going to want to figure out how to exchange Dash for dollars. There's also no way she's interested in holding Dash. If these issues were solved, there's no reason she wouldn't accept it. If it was easy for her to do, and she ended up with cash - then all she needs is a customer demand. (which is another issue in itself)

    It's also a larger part of what we plan to accomplish with this project. Once the app and hardware terminals are at a certain point with functionality (ie multi-currency support, NFC capabilities, major bugs squashed, etc.) we will innovate on top of the platform (as a paid service) with features such as card-type wallets and instant conversion to fiat.

    The reason I don't mention this in *this* proposal is to keep from promising a house before the foundation is laid.

    I can assure you that plenty of hard work will be involved here. In this stage itself, and much more hard work in stages further down the road. I want exactly what you mention, which is the reason I started this project in the first place - nothing that fills this gap yet exists.

    We just need to take this one step at a time.

    If you have done the research, do you mind if I reach out to you during that phase of the project? Navigation of legal regulations here in the US and abroad is mind-numbingly difficult. I agree than XVC had some interesting tech as well - and you may have seen me in that community before. It's a shame what some developers end up doing...

    I'm not sure what you mean here, but I can assure you that any talk about partnering with any other solution thus far has been only that. If any decisions are made regarding the contrary, it will be made known.

    If there is anything that you feel I can expand on, please let me know
     
  18. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    This is exactly what I'm going for - integrating NFC is trivial, honestly and the way the NFC will work is that it will be active in the background on phones/tablet/terminals that have NFC chips. If the phone does not have an NFC chip then it will not affect the normal operation of the terminal.

    In our system design, there is not any integration with existing solutions. It will be a standalone terminal. All a merchant has to do is put the amount charged in the 'other' category on their POS (supported by almost all existing POS) and they will still get all the accounting, inventory management, etc. that they are already used to.

    Asking a merchant to "switch to 'such and such' POS system because it supports cryptocurrencies" will fall on deaf ears.


    Skeletal and modular is what we intend to design here. I understand exactly what you're saying here, and this has definitely been thought out.

    The DASH to USD is a different proposal entirely, and one that I know is possible to accomplish.

    One thing that is important to remember is: I'm new to this community - I will need to do a few projects (like this one) to prove that I am competent and capable of accomplishing what I'm setting out to do here.

    I can understand what you mean here, and you are probably right. I am also a firm believer in 'more than one way to skin a cat'. I think this project alone will at least add value to the community and give us time to work on the more complicated issues of actually creating the DASH/USD business.

    Like I've said before, the DASH/USD is a different proposal entirely (and one I intend to make). In itself, the instant fiat conversion service will be terminal-agnostic. I don't care how they accept their DASH - if it comes to the service, it's getting converted (less service fee) and deposited. Unfortunately it's not what I'm working on at this moment, but I am thinking about it's integration with every move.

    This is good info, thank you for this


    To be clear, I am a software developer now, but I haven't always been. In real life I'm actually a machinist (not sure how that helps here lol). I learned to code with the goal in mind of offering something to the cryptocurrency community because I believe in the idea, and for reasons you mention below.

    ^^ This...crypto is full of a bunch of nerds that just plain don't get it (I still love em though!). I could dredge up some past posts in different communities where I am saying almost identical things as you (and I still am). I was making those posts when I didn't know how to code and other software developers were not responding or saying, "code it yourself"...so now I am! Lol.

    Exactly the experience I want to see. I honestly think we are coloring within the same lines here - I'm just coloring a leg and you're coloring an arm lol.

    One day the whole picture will be clear as long as you're dedicated to coloring the whole thing.
     
  19. Dworf

    Dworf Member

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  20. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Cool find! I had not seen those before. There are some differences though.

    These apps you point out seem to be full POS apps (requiring a merchant to switch software) but the app I'm proposing in akin to a dedicated standalone credit card terminal.

    It's use is compatible with any standard POS (even square register!).

    Bitcoin does have some apps like this (blockchain merchant, bitpay, etc.) But Dash does not.

    To answer your questions:

    -This proposal is the foundation for many unique features to come. But to be clear - these features are not very unique to crypto in general. Right now I'm playing catch-up to bitcoins current merchant features.

    One thing that does differ this solution from any existing is the support for instantsend detection. Imho instantsend will be super important for merchants.

    -Plans to support multiple cryptos are not currently in motion (though theoretically it's a few lines of difference for each Bitcoin fork). The reason we don't currently plan on supporting other currencies is because other coins do not have instantsend. To accept other coins in a timely manner would mean 0-confirm transactions for merchants, which is not very safe.

    -Dash to fiat conversion is still in planning stages and is not slated for this proposal. To be clear, this is something that will be implemented in the future and not in this release.

    If you have any other questions, please let me know
     
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  21. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Kind of. Basically how it will work (tentatively) is this - a merchant that wants to receive DASH only will create a wallet on the device using the wizard and they will have a locally controlled wallet.

    If a merchant wants to receive fiat (most likely) they will create a wallet with our online service and then when setting up the terminal they will select "existing account" and input their public key (or mnemonic seed). Similar to restoring a hardware wallet. It will still be very much a turn-key service.

    Is that for a pcnc? If you ever want to discuss machining stuff, I am on slack (dash nation and coin chat club).

    Of course. Planning and problem solving are big parts of my bread and butter in daily life.

    Well thank you for the confidence in this endeavor. I think my partner and I will be able to make this happen - the overall vision will take patience and it will have unexpected things crop up, I'm sure. That's a big reason why this proposal isn't a $5000/month for 6 months contract.

    I plan to make a proposal at each stage of development when all has been thought out, concepts have been tested and delivery is just around the corner

    To be honest, the image in the OP is old, and a new logo has been made containing the InstantSend branding.

    All graphics at this point are temporary for demos, etc. Even the name will be changed upon release to avoid confusion with other Dash products using the "dashpay" branding.
     
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  22. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    I have tapped @moocowmoo (extensively) lol. He's been a very big help to me from the beginning of this project. I've also tapped @chaeplin and a few other members regarding the 12.1 updates and the demo is currently running on 21.1 testnet fantastically.

    As far as IX support - this is the foundation of why this is possible. It currently supports IX very well and also detects payments that are not sent IX and notifies the merchant.

    I totally agree with this. Until a solution is found, our client requests IX by default but detects payments that come non-IX and notifies the merchant. It's important that we think of these cases in the development of something like this.
     
    #22 kodaxx, Jan 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  23. chaeplin

    chaeplin Official Dash Dev
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    12.1 has two option on InstantSend notify
    1) dashd cmd option
    Code:
      -instantsendnotify=<cmd>
    
          Execute command when a wallet InstantSend transaction is successfully
    
          locked (%s in cmd is replaced by TxID)
    
    2) dashd zmq option
    Code:
      -zmqpubhashtxlock=<address>
    
          Enable publish hash transaction (locked via InstantSend) in <address>
    
      -zmqpubrawtxlock=<address>
    
          Enable publish raw transaction (locked via InstantSend) in <address>
    
    With zmqpubrawtxlock, rawtx is emmited. So any trigger can be set.

    ex) decode block and tx(codes copied from other source) https://github.com/chaeplin/dash-testnet/blob/master/testnet-decode.py
     
  24. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Yes, and zmq is what the POS terminal currently uses :)

    Thank you for the info by the way, I'm not sure if I ever thanked you for that.
     
  25. dkaparis

    dkaparis New Member

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    I'm not too familiar with PoS systems.

    From what I understand, the merchant will set up a Dash wallet on his own desktop system and will acquire a dedicated PoS terminal that will run the client application set it up with the wallet's public key.

    A few questions:
    What hardware will the client run on? Will it target various widely available PoS terminals? What models, etc.
    Considering this is a standalone system to be deployed in addition to merchant's existing setup, are there any provision to integrate into their processes, for example WRT accounting?
     
  26. JerryBanfield

    JerryBanfield New Member

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    Nice work on this proposal! I voted yes!
     
  27. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Pretty close! The merchant has 2 options :

    -They can use the terminal's 'account generation' wizard to automatically generate the keys to an account
    -They can import existing keys that have been generated elsewhere

    The POS terminal only uses the extended public key (for HD address generation). The private key is never stored on the terminal. Also, you are correct in assuming it is a dedicated terminal.

    Now, to answer your questions:

    -The client will run on all standard mobile and desktop devices. So, any Android or apple phone. Or computer. There are also dedicated hardware terminals that we will make available for sale, similar to the one you see in original post's picture. We will have these for merchants that would like a more professional experience and don't mind buying the hardware. The fact that it will run on mobile and desktop platforms is to ease starting costs for merchants just casually accepting cryptos.

    -To be honest, I'm not clear what WRT accounting is (if maybe you want to expand on that), but I'll tell you how this works.

    Almost all POS software has fields to input what 'type' the payment is (customer paid with cash, credit card, check, gift certificate, other)

    It's this other field that we will use.

    When a merchant makes a sale with a credit card, they actually process the transaction on the credit card terminal. They input the amount paid by the customer into the 'credit card' input box in their POS only for accounting purposes, transaction history, etc.

    There is an 'other' box that is cleverly programmed in, but rarely used. (can you think of what it would be used for?)

    In our case, the merchant could put the Dash payment amounts into the 'other' box after processing the transaction on the terminal and then during accounting, they will know that these payments are Dash payments. The bonus is: now their Dash payments are treated with the same importance as other transactions in their current POS software. They get all the accounting, inventory management, etc. that comes with that.

    This process is exactly the same steps as credit card processing is today.

    Thank you!!
     
    #27 kodaxx, Jan 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  28. David

    David Well-known Member
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    It might be good to include some sort of logic that blocks outlier prices from being included in any averages. About 6-8 months ago, somebody fat fingered on a China exchange and bought a some Dash for several hundred dollars apiece. That skewed the price on Coinmarketcap for a short time--making it look like the price was over $12 when on all other exchanges it was half that.
     
  29. kodaxx

    kodaxx Member

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    Yeah, we're juggling ideas on the most effective way to get price equivalents. Any ideas are appreciated!
     
  30. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    I should have known. The OP has been in bed with the The King and The Pied Pipers for a while.

    Not that it's a bad thing. Something that isn't obscene pork-barreling has finally been proposed! Woo hoo!

    It still exposes just how corrupt this project is. Must be prescribed by the king and his men or forget it...

    Was throwing a way a 2 year head start on DASH's own invention really worth it? Just to spite people of a political slant that you hate? This corruption and bratty attitude is exactly why grown-ups don't take cryptocurrency seriously...

    I'm glad this is finally happening, but it's 2 years too late. The underlying toxicity, corruption, and immaturity of this project's leadership and community is still it's Achilles's Heel. Since this proposal is pre-ordained by the king and his pied pipers, there's no need to worry about support. No member of the community need vote, it'll be passed regardless. So, I get to continue my voting boycott without concern.

    As bad as the process still smells, at least something worth a damn is finally getting done.
     
    #30 camosoul, Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Trolling Trolling x 1

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