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DASH mining in any capacity is officially dead

Discussion in 'Mining' started by Checkerama, Nov 18, 2017.

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Do you see current DASH algorithm as unsustainable in terms of scalability?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    46.2%
  2. No

    7 vote(s)
    53.8%
  1. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
    Masternode Owner/Operator

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    @Checkerama This stupid MNO would just like to point out that decentralization has nothing to do with the USD cost of acquiring a masternode. So long as I have the choice to participate or not, and so long as no single person is making decisions, then it's decentralized.
     
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  2. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    I thought you was one of the people complaining that MNOs are stupid and giving away too much dash for little or no reason. So I don't understand, with all those giveaways, how is it that no one else can afford to buy a masternode?
     
  3. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    An historical quote:
    Decentralization is when two persons are making decisions. @GrandMasterDash
    :rolleyes:
     
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  4. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    The spies deliberately increased dash's price (and thus the masternode collateral fee), in order to control its governance. For the same reason there is a maximum number of masternodes. The spies want the price of a masternode to remain high in order to discourage people of joinning the Dash network. These steps are part of their structured methodology, in order for them to be able to control (or destroy) Dash in the future.

     
    #64 demo, Nov 19, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
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  5. Ftoole

    Ftoole Member

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    Ok so max coin supply is 18.9 mill.
    10k max master nodes locks up 10 mill dash. Current supply is 7.698 mill. So current max man count is 7,698 based on circulating coins.
    Also could we reduce collateral requirements yes but if we do that what is going to happen when 1 gb links are needed for blocks will the price be high enough to pay for that.
    Sadly this is a for profit venture. Those who took the risk early have seen good profits.
     
  6. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    Gee then I dont understand the point? I'm so dumb can you help me understand how a centralized bank, government or a corporation work then? Is it centralized because one person makes the decision or decentralized because theres a board of directors or a senate/congress?

    See how stupid you sound? Centralization isnt about guaranteeing multiple pieces, its about multiple pieces acting as one entity.
     
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  7. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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    And how is that so, who is dictating my ability to run a node, whether it's a masternode or not? Who is dictating that you run a mining node or not? Please come back when you understand the difference between centralization and concentration.
     
  8. GrandMasterDash

    GrandMasterDash Well-known Member
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  9. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
    Dash Core Team Moderator

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    FYI, I deleted all altcoin advertisement/discussion posts here, please stay on topic.
     
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  10. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    You really are dense - 4:54. That doesn't sound like a masternode governance system to you?

    Someone suggests a change to reward system from 45/45/10 to 30/60/10 (MNO/Miners/Budget), is that a miner or an end user making that decision?

    No. It's not. It would be up to the miners and end users to convince the MNO to vote their way, but this is the equivalent of telling senate/congress to vote for a reduction in their ridiculously high salaries of 250k/yr for doing nothing but govern and provide a service whose only maintenance is a fucking server and a VPN service (and thats only SOME masternodes that use it) while they sit on an equivalent of $450,000 in DASH.

    Meanwhile, MNO are currently making an equivalent of $3000 a month (At best your expenses are $500 a month, and thats being generous) and miners, with many more expenses than you could possibly have, are making an equivalent of what? Negative income? With no effect on their overall payout due to the current fluctuations in difficulty. As I stated before, more hashrate means more buyer confidence. This correlation is made even more obvious when you look at the current hashrate rise vs the DASH price, whereas an increase in MNO has done 0 to improve the prices, just more greedy, entitled asshats who think they're generating a service that provides anything to the current network, and if you think PrivateSend and InstaSend services are what is making DASH rise in price, you seriously need to reconsider why an investor would have high confidence in a network's ability to process more and more transactions. It's not because of a new MN I can assure you.

    [​IMG]

    Masternode influence on DASH price saturated back in August 2015. Get real.

    But yeah, lets tell the literal people with the backbone of the network sitting on their shoulders to be happy that they at least get to mine 2 DASH a month for each machine that will never pay off until 6 months later when you've already made 42 DASH in the same time period. Take a couple of seats.

    Just to be clear, MNO payout IS the increase in DASH price, influenced only by miners joining the network, not whatever garbage type shit of a governance role you play.

    https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/dash-hashrate.html
    https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/dash-price.html
    https://dash-news.de/dashtv/#value=1000
     
    #70 Checkerama, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
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  11. Dandy

    Dandy Member

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    You forget that MNs are also the investors and they have more skin in the game than most of the miners. I personally invested a lot of my life savings into buying a masternode and it's definitely in my best interest to make decisions that will benefit the network in the long run. How much did you invest in your miner?
    Also, why do you think price of Dash is so high and relatively stable? Because of MNs that are not selling their Dash holdings.

    Do you really believe that hashrate is that important to the average user? The average user doesn't even know what a hashrate is.
    I agree that it's better to secure the network by more hashrate, but Dash hashrate already jumped a lot in a short amount of time. I think we are secure enough and when the Dash price rises again, so will the hashrate.
     
  12. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    I appreciate the honest response and it's actually exactly what I was expecting.

    I don't think you would lose your life savings - it would do a U in price when we kick out the whale MNOs that are just cashing out on miners work (MNO do not generate their own DASH, miners do)

    Essentially there is a master-slave relationship, and this current debate is me in the North and MNOs in the south. Anyone with any knowledge of basic economics knows that the influence of liquidity is much better for economic output than artificially inflating prices due to MNOs holding off of more than half of the supply of DASH. Investors are scared to jump in because of this (this is personally why I mine DASH but buy bitcoins with cash - MNO whales could crash it anyway now)

    So what I'm suggesting would increase liquidity, discourage whale MNOs (Thus creating a more decentralized network), increase hashrate (And thus security and buyer confidence into the network) AND increased number of end users (who would absolutely buy DASH at the dip)

    I know it would crash the current price, but what's the current price worth right now if everyone is just holding and not transacting with DASH? Do we want an economy that depends on DASH technology (Which we all know is the BEST)? Or do we want the major components of any economy (The individual) to literally play with DASH fractions?

    Investors would swarm in once they see their investments won't just crash because the people who control half of all the currency is being held up by a few (holy shit this totally sounds exactly like the USD AND why banks are shitting themselves)
     
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  13. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    As a matter of fact once I get to a computer, I can generate a correlation between hashrate and price for any cryptocurrency and we would see the obvious correlation. Yes, investors ARE looking at it.
     
  14. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    The original idea for MNOs was to discourage miner influence on the economy of DASH. MNs can still play that role without such a high payout. Miners would be left with two choices: sell their DASH for instant gratification, or hold their DASH and try to become an MNO.

    Which would be impossible for any miner to do so at the moment btw, unless they invest hundreds of thousands to generate the hashrate required to get the DASH required. This would be impossible to do solely mining without putting their own cash into it. With currently 150 GH/s, A 12k investment, I would only generate about 30 DASH a year. Even if rewards were to go 0/90/10, I would still be mining 60 DASH/yr. Nowhere near enough for an MN. With a 120k investment not including electricity bills which would amount to about 60k/yr, I would still only mine 600 DASH. I think thats far more skin in the game than whale MNOs who bought up cheap DASH in 2015.
     
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  15. Dandy

    Dandy Member

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    Of course, there is a correlation, but it's because hashrate follows the profitability, not the other way around.
    Also, I AM an investor and I didn't buy enough Dash for a masternode because of it's hashrate. I bought it because I like its technology, its potential, how it's structured and also it got me a vote on the future of the network.
    You vote with your mining power. If you don't like where it's going, you are free to move your hashrate to another coin or sell your miners.


    You can't compare the prices in 2015. and now. I bought a MN at the beginning of 2017.
    It was a lot cheaper then, but I still paid a lot for it.
    How about you calculate how much mining power you could get with 440,000$?
     
  16. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    Of course I can compare - half of all masternodes were generated pre-2016. You made an investment when the prices were already inflated. I call that a bad investment (much like everyone else is telling me on here about my miners).

    And you've got the wrong idea about mining - no one mines because of short term profits, and hashrate does not follow profitability (unless we're talking short term, but then we'd also be talking about MNOs doing the same thing much like you're defending right now). Miners join a network because they believe their investment would make the best possible outcome in the long term... Much to the dismay of why MNOs would do it.

    And everyone IS voting with their mining power AND their money - why do you think theyre dropping their D3s like hotcakes on amazon and ebay right now? Why do you think that DASH volume 24h never raises past $20M unless theyre hedging their value onto this currency? It's because they know it will remain stable, because there is no liquidity. If you were an actual investor you would know this.

    And if you were an actual investor and not just some guy who threw a whole fuckton of cash to own an MNO for your own short term profits, you would understand that an 8% return per month on owning one server with a VPN service is fucking ridiculous and highly inflated (not even the dot com boom bro).

    You're not an investor - you are here for the same reason every other miner is complaining about their profits going to shit after the mining flunctuation - you're a short term thinker, and its clear to me you would be one of the MNOs I would be talking about.
     
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  17. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    Also you clearly glanced over the fact that I said you WOULDN'T lose your investment - it would dip and rise again. The valuation of $450 is inaccurate as this is a pseudoeconomy with a centralized bank (MNs holding the rest of the liquidity much like the feds would hold back on printing more cash). If you want to make an ACTUAL investment, you would let the market decide the actual price for your service.
     
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  18. Dandy

    Dandy Member

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    Return is 8% per year for a MN and it will only go down year to year, so check your math.

    Market IS deciding the actual price. MNs can't create Dash out of thin air.
     
  19. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    But let's compare a $444,000 investment into D3 miners then. And I'm not even counting the ridiculous amount 296 D3s turning online would again flunctuate current difficulty into oblivion, nor am I counting the amount that DASH would crash after my MNO getting lower payout suggestion would play out:

    296 D3s = $444,000
    Hashrate increase = 4.44 TH/s
    Power consumption = 278,240 W
    Price per KWh = lets assume 7 cents

    Power cost/yr = 225k/yr
    (Note this doesnt even include rent to be paid in a facility or any electrical upgrades necessary to make such a powerhouse viable)
    Profit/yr (AS OF TODAY'S DIFFICULTY) = 970 DASH, or after discounting ONLY electricity, 200k/yr

    Wow, what an investment. So what sounds better? I just added 4.5 TH/s to the network for the same price as your "investment" did nothing but garner you a vote and highly inflated profitability. Who deserves the 8% a year more? The guy sitting on 1000 DASH or the guy who literally is spending hundreds of thousands to support the network?
     
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  20. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    That's correct - your miners generate your DASH. You literally get paid because of a miner's investment, not because you yourself hold 1000 DASH on an AWS server.
     
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  21. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    I corrected the math btw, sorry for saying a month. 8% a year. Still ridiculous for just sitting on it and renting out a AWS server. Even value investors take more risk than you do.
     
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  22. Dandy

    Dandy Member

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    Masternode would generate about 80 Dash in that time, so your 970 doesn't sound so bad.
     
  23. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    It doesn't until I start adding all the REAL costs. Electricity already takes away half of that DASH alone. You're sitting on 1000 DASH. I'm actually working. Let's be realistic here.
     
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  24. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    Do I need to calculate the hours needed to maintain such a facility? The bodies I would need to do the maintenance? The rent for the WAREHOUSE I would need to get to store 300 DASH miners? The parts I would need to replace because they would burn out? THE INITIAL INVESTMENT I would need to make NOT just on the D3s but also to make my warehouse airflow viable enough to prolong the life of these miners? I'm not putting these at home sitting on my ass and remoting into them from a user-friendly interface.
     
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  25. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    And yes, I would definitely still hold all my profit margins in DASH, because I'm not an asshole trying to make short term profits. I would sell off what is required to maintain and pay my employees, and hopefully, one day, get a MN and SIT ON 1000 DASH and pay a measely what? 30 bucks a month to run an AWS server? 5 dollars for a VPN server? JUST so I could get ONE ACTUAL vote on the network.
     
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  26. Dandy

    Dandy Member

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    Well, that's why I bought a masternode ;)

    In any case, even with the miners you've got at the moment, I think if you calculate the ROI, you'll get more than 8% back on your investment per year.
     
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  27. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    With my current miners I won't even break even until two years later unless DASH prices increase fourfold (break even at 6 months) and I spend my own money (sell none of the DASH) on electricity and maintenance. Do we see where I'm going with this?

    Also, if we were to traditionally calculate ROI for MNOs, they do not make 8% back per year because they can pull out their 1000 DASH at any time. They would make more than that. FAR MORE than that.

    You dont SPEND 1000 DASH, you HOLD 1000 DASH, so thats not an investment. Your ROI would be the money you spent on the AWS server and VPN service. How much do you spend on that? I'll edit the calculation when you give me more accurate numbers:

    Assuming you even spend 50 bucks a month, that's 600 dollars a year to gain back 36,0000 worth of DASH.

    Your ROI is 60,000%. Not including whatever price increase DASH goes through and increases your 1000 DASH valuation.
     
    #87 Checkerama, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
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  28. Dandy

    Dandy Member

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    We can argue about this without end...
    Dash is made this way, you knew this when you bought the miners. Nobody forced you to do it.
    Live with your decision and stop trying to put the responsibility on someone else.

    Also, I don't think Dash price will increase fourfold in the next two years. I think it will increase at least twentyfold.
     
  29. Checkerama

    Checkerama Member

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    No this is pretty much the end unless you can explain to me why sitting on 1000 DASH entitles you to an ROI 5 times more than the people who literally generate your profits. MNOs are leeches off of the people who do the actual work on the network - miners.

    They're neither so much so vital that it is needed that they own servers and sit on half of the liquidity of the DASH network that we would fail if even half of them sold off their DASH, nor are they making any real network decisions other than being idiots on budget propositions and voting for the most ridiculous, least ROI incentive advertising campaigns I have ever seen in my life as a business owner.

    And without the liquidity, if DASH price increases twentyfold, Bitcoin will increase hundredfold, because no one takes DASH seriously as a transactional value network but rather as a hedger whenever bitcoin goes through one of its drama stages. You do realize they're DASH's main competitor right? They're not your friend, or any cryptocurrency promising to be of transactional value's friend (I'm looking at you, LTC)

    And yeah, I knew this coming in, and maybe I should've crunched up the numbers, but the amount of reek I smelled as soon as I got onto these forums and only being lectured by MNOs about "you took a risk and you lost" really got me thinking, "is this why DASH is so shit? is this why the technology is going to waste on a bunch of greedy assholes who think nothing about the future of DASH but rather play politics on advertising campaigns?"

    So, I set out to prove my point here. And I did. Hopefully people will either reconsider their investments or try to fix this sinking ship before the MNOs eat up anything that will be left after BITCOIN beats them to the punch of what they're actually trying to accomplish.
     
    #89 Checkerama, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
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  30. Dandy

    Dandy Member

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    Because I put money that I saved for the previous 20 years in a Dash project that could've just as easily failed and I would be left with 1000 pieces of nothing.
    So I AM an investor and I risked a lot of money.
    It's easy to see that Dash has great potential now, but it wasn't really that obvious a year ago.

    I host the masternode myself. I have a high-end machine dedicated to it and I plan on getting a gigabit network connection soon, so I'll be ready for an increase in requirements when the Evolution update is finished.
    And thank you for calling me an idiot. I appreciate your opinion.