DASH mining in any capacity is officially dead

[Ftoole]

Poor return on investment? I think u need to do some lookin November 2015 dash 2 bucks now 450. Growth of like 22500%.
Btc was about 350 now 7800 ish. Growth of like 2500%.
Would u rather had bought 1 btc or 150 dash in November of 2015?
I’d take the 150 dash.

 

[Checkerama]

Poor return on investment? I think u need to do some lookin November 2015 dash 2 bucks now 450. Growth of like 22500%.
Btc was about 350 now 7800 ish. Growth of like 2500%.
Would u rather had bought 1 btc or 150 dash in November of 2015?
I’d take the 150 dash.

The ROI I represent is the one that all miners will have to face as the hashrate goes up along with the difficulty. As stated and calculated before, DASH difficulty rises at a rate 4 times faster than bitcoin for every arbitrary hashrate added to the system. In other words, if price was equal for DASH and Bitcoin and so were their short term profits, DASH would require 4 times less network hashrate. Less hashrate means less decentralization. Less decentralization means more centralization of power. More centralization means less miners. Less miners (and less hashrate) means you can upgrade the system all you want, but you will never scale to replace everyday transactions (which is why investors are sitting on bitcoins and DASH is simply siphoning off of its success).

So yes, for those who buy the cryptocurrency, good job, they win a lot of money. For those who invested into the infrastructure required for the network to really take off? They can go fuck themselves apparently, because only people who got in early on DASH are winning, not people who invest in trying to make it a truly decentralized system.

 

[Ftoole]

Yes dash’s difficulty is calculated by the time it took to create the last 24 blocks so future blocks will be spaced 2.5 mins apart. Which we could lower the difficulty but then thier would be more blocks created everyday and increase the coin supply which could cause downward pressure on the price. Is that what you think we should do? Or are you saying we should only re adjust the difficulty every 2 weeks like bitcoin?

 

[Twilight Miner]

Well, Bitmain cheated you and sold overpriced miners. Actually i dont think its cheating. Because they had clear offer and you agreed. And now instead of blaming yourself you try to blame dash community.

 

[Checkerama]

Well, Bitmain cheated you and sold overpriced miners. Actually i dont think its cheating. Because they had clear offer and you agreed. And now instead of blaming yourself you try to blame dash community.

You have 0 idea what is going on in this thread. Please leave. I haven't even mentioned the price of Bitmain's D3.

 

[Checkerama]

Yes dash’s difficulty is calculated by the time it took to create the last 24 blocks so future blocks will be spaced 2.5 mins apart. Which we could lower the difficulty but then thier would be more blocks created everyday and increase the coin supply which could cause downward pressure on the price. Is that what you think we should do? Or are you saying we should only re adjust the difficulty every 2 weeks like bitcoin?

I might've missed that part in my calculations - the change in difficulty is determined on block generations. I don't think lowering the difficulty is necessary, but I think the rate of which it changes needs to be slowed down. This would obviously have the effect of lowering difficulty, but it really needs to be adjusted in order to get more incentive for people to add to the network hashrate

 

[Twilight Miner]

Just imagine situation if dash devs will decide to help you and increase reward. Of course it will lead to price decay.
But for example that there is another guy who decided to invest in MN. Now its nearly 450k usd. And why HE should lose money because of YOUR mistake?

Also dash network will be operating even it will have just ONE miner. Difficaulty will drop but this miner will earn only 1.8 dash every 2.5 min. No more.

I think you need to investigate how crypto currencies works before screaming out.

 

[Twilight Miner]

Lowering difficulty with constant quantity of miners will lead to more coins generated. More coins supply will lead to price decay. Period.

And again lower difficulty will help only BITMAIN to run more miners. And you helped them with your orders to gain more hashpower in their hands.

 

[Ftoole]

I might've missed that part in my calculations - the change in difficulty is determined on block generations. I don't think lowering the difficulty is necessary, but I think the rate of which it changes needs to be slowed down. This would obviously have the effect of lowering difficulty, but it really needs to be adjusted in order to get more incentive for people to add to the network hashrate

With DGW adjust every block on a moving average and dash has used v3 since 2014. Changing rules mid stream seems off.

 

[Checkerama]

Lowering difficulty with constant quantity of miners will lead to more coins generated. More coins supply will lead to price decay. Period.

And again lower difficulty will help only BITMAIN to run more miners. And you helped them with your orders to gain more hashpower in their hands.

Oh my God you are so off on the whole purpose of this thread why are you still talking like you know what you're talking about???

DASH will still run on ONE miner? LOL, how dumb can you get, honestly? Do you know what happens when transactions surpass network hashrate capability? A fuckton of orphaned blocks. But you know... keep dreaming that hashrates aren't important.

 

[Ftoole]

Actually the difficulty can go up or down each block. Also if the difficulty gets to low the reward actually increases. Unless that was removed from the code.

 

[Checkerama]

With DGW adjust every block on a moving average and dash has used v3 since 2014. Changing rules mid stream seems off.

Off, but not unheard of. I mean, we are talking about the necessity for more hashrates to incentivize and prove to investors that DASH can handle the transactions of the masses one day. It would be a win-win for everyone.

 

[Checkerama]

Actually the difficulty can go up or down each block. Also if the difficulty gets to low the reward actually increases. Unless that was removed from the code.

It does pull back from time to time, but to hit the ceiling so soon with just a few months of ASICs is honestly crazy you know

 

[Ftoole]

So if half the miner decide to go off line af the same time after 24 blocks the block time should be at 2.5 mins again.

 

[Twilight Miner]

Transactions cannot surpass hashrate. Transactions size can surpass block size. But block size have nothing common with hashrate.
But if transactions size will surpass the block size nothing extraordinary will happen. Just payment fee should be increased.

 

[Ftoole]

Orphan blocks aren’t cause by not enough hashrate. They generally happen when 2 miners find a block at close to the same time and the one who was second didn’t confirm the one before and the next block found confirms the 2nd block and not the first btc had issues with this with ASICS and only retargeting every 2016 blocks. Which is why keg and dgw and other diff algorithms came out. You should do more research on mining a difficulty.

 

[Checkerama]

So if half the miner decide to go off line af the same time after 24 blocks the block time should be at 2.5 mins again.

Fair point, but I don't think it should be necessary is my conclusion. Maybe bitcoin's model of changing it every 2016 blocks was the best idea.. that way the fluctuations wouldnt be so wild and create uncertainty on network difficulty. Nonetheless, a few months supply of ASICs shouldn't have sent it out of whack so quickly. It shouldve built up some sort of difficulty change resistance already given september + october batch, but its just getting worse.

 

[Ftoole]

But one big issue with the 2016 blocks is like the halt of blocks for btc when the price spike happened for bitcoin cash. We have to have users transact transactions more then needing miners to mine blocks.

 

[Twilight Miner]

Fair point, but I don't think it should be necessary is my conclusion. Maybe bitcoin's model of changing it every 2016 blocks was the best idea.. that way the fluctuations wouldnt be so wild and create uncertainty on network difficulty. Nonetheless, a few months supply of ASICs shouldn't have sent it out of whack so quickly. It shouldve built up some sort of difficulty change resistance already given september + october batch, but its just getting worse.

Changing difficulty every 2016 blocks like bitcoin its not a good, its deprecated idea. Bitcoin just keep it as legacy.
For example if some big pool will go offline bitcoin network need 2016 blocks to readjust difficulty. And all this time transactions will pass much SLOWER.
Dash adjusts diff every block. It is protected from such kind "attacks".
Dash is a way of transmitting money and flawless working of transactions should be always first priority. Mining profits or losses is just a SIDE EFFECT of dash.

 

[Checkerama]

So if I'm understand this correctly, a linear relationship between difficulty and hashrate wouldn't make sense to create (like I did) because difficulty is based off of how fast one found a block within the last 24 blocks.. so what we are experiencing now is not necessarily a permanent change in difficulty but rather an adjustment fluctuation created by the introduction of super-powerful ASIC miners and don't necessarily reflect an extrapolated model of future difficulty?

 

[Ftoole]

Correct but with the current hasrate I don’t see block times slowing to were the difficulty will make a major drop. Also when a new miner comes out in the future I see the diff climbing more but probably at a slower pace then with this flooding of miners that just happened.

 

[Ftoole]

I see dash crossing 1k next year and as I have told people in the past I think it will become a greater value then btc. If dash fuffils it’s goal of digital cash it will have a 1 trillion + market cap currently it is at 3.4 billion. Do that math at look at ur machines potential roi.

 

[Twilight Miner]

Dash advantage over bitcoin is fast and flawless transactions. And as faster dash readjust difficulty then more robust is the network.
To survive dash need to focus on flawless transactions not miner's profits.

 

[Checkerama]

Correct but with the current hasrate I don’t see block times slowing to were the difficulty will make a major drop. Also when a new miner comes out in the future I see the diff climbing more but probably at a slower pace then with this flooding of miners that just happened.

I also see that with the current hashrate - dont worry, I'm not trying to regain short-term profits. My concern is purely with the rewards in terms of DASH, not dollars. Extrapolating current Antminer S9 technology hashrate, I guess this would make sense as well if applied to DASH (and the reward on the bitcoin network from a 14 TH/s machine also makes sense).

Hopefully with the mining I do now, then, I will be able to upgrade my equipment for free, essentially.

I see dash crossing 1k next year and as I have told people in the past I think it will become a greater value then btc. If dash fuffils it’s goal of digital cash it will have a 1 trillion + market cap currently it is at 3.4 billion. Do that math at look at ur machines potential roi.

In that case, I will change my business model - short term goal with bitcoins and long term goals with DASH. This should give me the necessary funds to support any additional fluctuations in DASH mining difficulty while supporting the network. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Checkerama]

Dash advantage over bitcoin is fast and flawless transactions. And as faster dash readjust difficulty then more robust is the network.
To survive dash need to focus on flawless transactions not miner's profits.

We will have to see where the network settles in the next few months in terms of difficulty then... and of course price the miners used for it accordingly when thinking about short term profits.

 

[Twilight Miner]

Current problem of mining is not a problem of increasing difficulty. Its a problem that most of hashpower is concentrated in one (MITMAIN) hands.
To overcome this we need to use our governance power and develop open source ASIC ICs that will be sold over the world. But it is a tough challenge and also have some risks.

 

[Checkerama]

Current problem of mining is not a problem of increasing difficulty. Its a problem that most of hashpower is concentrated in one (MITMAIN) hands.
To overcome this we need to use our governance power and develop open source ASIC ICs that will be sold over the world. But it is a tough challenge and also have some risks.

It can't be more risky than allowing Bitmain to consolidate most hashrate power for all crypto. I haven't read a proposal yet to create an open source ASIC IC that would propagate network hashrate exponentially on the DASH network. That's actually kind of genius... Remove consolidation of power by using DASH budget funds to create it, then distribute it to the community. Even if it were open source though, the development of the code into a miner would still present a barrier, so it wouldn't be THAT bad of a risk - only those really dedicated would be able to turn it into a quality miner they could use to support the network.

I don't see how someone could lose with this kind of suggestion. Good thinking.

 

[Twilight Miner]

It can't be more risky than allowing Bitmain to consolidate most hashrate power for all crypto. I haven't read a proposal yet to create an open source ASIC IC that would propagate network hashrate exponentially on the DASH network. That's actually kind of genius... Remove consolidation of power by using DASH budget funds to create it, then distribute it to the community. Even if it were open source though, the development of the code into a miner would still present a barrier, so it wouldn't be THAT bad of a risk - only those really dedicated would be able to turn it into a quality miner they could use to support the network.

I don't see how someone could lose with this kind of suggestion. Good thinking.

Actually i am not just thinking, i am moving toward to this goal. But i want to come out with proposal after i have some results and calculations. Hope in a couple of weeks. Not like dozens of other proposals that just want to get some free coins and run away.

 

[Dandy]

I really don't understand your argument at all.
The current low profitability is the result of a big influx of hash power into the network that was initiated by the rise in profitability some time ago.
It will equalize after some time when some miners stop mining because they don't think it's profitable anymore and when Dash price rises.
Then, the cycle will happen again, but as the size of the Dash network and Dash market cap raises, the oscillations will be smaller.

The same thing happened with Bitcoin. The same thing more or less happens with any commodity on the market. It's all about supply and demand and it's perfectly normal.

 

[Checkerama]

I really don't understand your argument at all.
The current low profitability is the result of a big influx of hash power into the network that was initiated by the rise in profitability some time ago.
It will equalize after some time when some miners stop mining because they don't think it's profitable anymore and when Dash price rises.
Then, the cycle will happen again, but as the size of the Dash network and Dash market cap raises, the oscillations will be smaller.

The same thing happened with Bitcoin. The same thing more or less happens with any commodity on the market. It's all about supply and demand and it's perfectly normal.

Yes when I initially came here, no one really explained that - they were just complaining that I was complaining about profits when really, I was expecting an end to the influxing difficulty that has exponentially made mining unprofitable. I thought it was a flaw in the coding itself.

But Twilight and Ftoole walked me through it - I will be waiting for the influx to equalize.