Budget Proposal : Promotion / Reimbursement / Core Team

mastermined

Active Member
May 26, 2014
512
388
133
I would like to see an ad budget proposal to have Andreas Antonopoulos give a talk about the advantages of DASH over BTC.
The free publicity from the ensuing controversy on reddit, bitcointalk and the btc maximalist twitter accounts would pay for itself as well as give us lots of street cred.
 

balu

Well-known Member
Dash Core Team
Foundation Member
Dash Support Group
Oct 9, 2014
117
239
213
To add something to what I believe Solarminer is saying, I cannot even count the articles, books, presentations I've seen about making small bets, testing and gathering feedback about how things work out, and then commit resources to it. If without this information we commit a lot of resources (5500$ is a large percentage of our total), that may not give the desired result. It's even worse to commit a huge percentage of the resources long-term, hence he was asking about the timespan the 5500$ will cover.

I'm all for validating our assumptions with "small" bets, and only paying significant amounts for the best looking solutions. Now back to holiday mode :)
 

Sub-Ether

Well-known Member
Mar 31, 2014
1,516
1,254
183
Sub-Ether, This is fantastic. You would be perfectly qualified for a project I have in mind. Kind of related to this documentary Ghostplayer posted here:
Algorithmic Forex Trading! ...
The project would involve only one customer so it shouldn't need too much for database structure. The main code would work with masternodes and how they interact with each other. Specifically, high frequency manipulating of masternode inputs for hijacking payments to a specific address.
LOL! :D
Yes, I saw that doc, smart guy, head hunted by a large company so they can skim the top off the world's stocks, alls fair in love and Wall street I suppose, but the difference was they were not tied down to the mathermatical rules of a blockchain consensus (or any other law for that matter!)

At university, we studied how to model things like 2nd order equations for real life engineering problems such as the g-force of a fairground ride.
The masternodes, markets, memory pool, blocksize etc are all interconnected and this has never been done before, not sure how much this would help Dash but it would lend a lot of kudos to the project and provide a solid mathematical backdrop of whats going on (like I have attempted to do with the Tao sync ratio)
Those Uni Professors love their long equations and getting them interested could result in a course on cryptocurrency, Harvard and MIT already are just about to start teaching crypto, this will be taught in classrooms in the future and we could provide the starting blocks for such an erudition.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dunedoo and buster

miningpros

New Member
Jun 6, 2014
27
19
8
Good to hear you are visiting the Netherlands, planning also to join the meeting as it is nearby :D
if you would need any local assistance we are here to help out ( including being a taxi if needed :cool:)
 

Sub-Ether

Well-known Member
Mar 31, 2014
1,516
1,254
183
Good to hear you are visiting the Netherlands, planning also to join the meeting as it is nearby :D
if you would need any local assistance we are here to help out ( including being a taxi if needed :cool:)
Attach a large Dash logo sticker on the side of car (like Uber do) and we'll know who you are :cool:
 

jpr

Active Member
May 11, 2014
493
393
133
I will go to netherlands only if moli goes :D
Seriously now, you gotta make some photos there guys!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dunedoo

Lebubar

Active Member
Mar 15, 2014
249
213
103
May be I got an idea for the "Core Development team budget" to have something more "long term", but maybe it will take too much time to become effective:
The idea is to make something that will (in future) even don't need to take money from the budget system, but it will take time to become interesting.
Instead of paying directly the Dev Team from the budget, regroup those DASH to make MasterNode and the revenue of those MN will pay the core dev team.

The proposal for this month is 3,000$, this could be 1 MN. But dev will receive nothing this month. So next month they could receive payment from those 1 MN and create 1 more. At beginning this will be few but with time maybe the revenue of all MN created will be enough to sustain a good "Dev Core Team" without need to cut the budget, and so budget can be use for other things.

Maybe we can split those 3,000$, half to pay "dev core team", half keep for the dev core payin's MN.

I know that maybe the beginning could be hard and low paying, but if we look at future and long term I saw only benefice :
-No more cutting from budget to pay a keep "Dev core Team" motivated.
-More MN for the network.
-More DASH hold in MN.

Though?

EDIT: with a quick calcul (DASH=3$ and MN earning per day = 0.5) we'll need ~66 MN to have a 3000$ monthly revenue ;)

Edit 2: Hmmm something also we must think about : who are the proprietary of those DASH (hold in MN)? and those DASH will be hold in MN for the eternity? lol

Edit 3: OUPPs big mistake 3000$ are 1 MN not 3 ... so should take longer than I though... Maybe not so good idea...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

moli

Grizzled Member
Aug 5, 2014
3,255
1,830
1,183
May be I got an idea for the "Core Development team budget" to have something more "long term", but maybe it will take too much time to become effective:
The idea is to make something that will (in future) even don't need to take money from the budget system, but it will take time to become interesting.
Instead of paying directly the Dev Team from the budget, regroup those DASH to make MasterNode and the revenue of those MN will pay the core dev team.

The proposal for this month is 3,000$, this could be 3 MN. But dev will receive nothing this month. So next month they could receive payment from those 3 MN and create 3 more. At beginning this will be few but with time maybe the revenue of all MN created will be enough to sustain a good "Dev Core Team" without need to cut the budget, and so budget can be use for other things.

Maybe we can split those 3,000$, half to pay "dev core team", half keep for the dev core payin's MN.

I know that maybe the beginning could be hard and low paying, but if we look at future and long term I saw only benefice :
-No more cutting from budget to pay a keep "Dev core Team" motivated.
-More MN for the network.
-More DASH hold in MN.

Though?

EDIT: with a quick calcul (DASH=3$ and MN earning per day = 0.5) we'll need ~66 MN to have a 3000$ monthly revenue ;)

Edit 2: Hmmm something also we must think about : who are the proprietary of those DASH? and those DASH will be hold in MN for the eternity? lol
Are you saying the devs shouldn't eat or pay their bills? I think it's been a long time coming for them, how long do we want to make them wait? A C++ programmer can make a whole lot more money somewhere else right now, why should we make them work for free?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dunedoo

Solarminer

Well-known Member
Apr 4, 2015
762
922
163
May be I got an idea for the "Core Development team budget" to have something more "long term", but maybe it will take too much time to become effective:
The idea is to make something that will (in future) even don't need to take money from the budget system, but it will take time to become interesting.
Instead of paying directly the Dev Team from the budget, regroup those DASH to make MasterNode and the revenue of those MN will pay the core dev team.

The proposal for this month is 3,000$, this could be 3 MN. But dev will receive nothing this month. So next month they could receive payment from those 3 MN and create 3 more. At beginning this will be few but with time maybe the revenue of all MN created will be enough to sustain a good "Dev Core Team" without need to cut the budget, and so budget can be use for other things.

Maybe we can split those 3,000$, half to pay "dev core team", half keep for the dev core payin's MN.

I know that maybe the beginning could be hard and low paying, but if we look at future and long term I saw only benefice :
-No more cutting from budget to pay a keep "Dev core Team" motivated.
-More MN for the network.
-More DASH hold in MN.

Though?

EDIT: with a quick calcul (DASH=3$ and MN earning per day = 0.5) we'll need ~66 MN to have a 3000$ monthly revenue ;)
If we add masternodes to the network, existing masternode owners lose a piece of the earnings (about 1/3000) less. Not opposed to the idea, but it sure sounds better to an outsider if the blockchain is paying rewards that are used for development vs "interest" on a set of nodes.
 

Lebubar

Active Member
Mar 15, 2014
249
213
103
moli:
Yes I know this is not perfect idea, and that they had already done lot of work, without payment, and this should took time to be effective. But once this is in place. No more problems for dev payment. This is an idea that I wanted to share, and maybe find other good "long term" solution.
Because if you want to keep paying the "dev" during all life of the project (years and years and years..) that mean cutting 3000$ every month permanently of the budget.

Solarminer :
Yes this could give little less payment for others, but this also keep some DASH away from exchange and can drive price up ;)
 

moli

Grizzled Member
Aug 5, 2014
3,255
1,830
1,183
I will go to netherlands only if moli goes :D
Seriously now, you gotta make some photos there guys!
LOL...
Even if I went, you wouldn't be there, don't lie :tongue:

It would be nice to meet our devs and shake their hands and buy them a drink or two, and it would be nice if everybody in the community could meet each other, but only for two days max before something happens... Like "my masternodes are down, why? why there's no changelog? why don't i see the coins in my wallet? why doesn't my wallet sync? Synchronization failed.. why? Why's enforcement off? Why did you let jmmA hijack my mn payment? I haven't got paid for 6 days.." BLAHH BLAHHBLAHHBLAHH....

After working hours would you want to hang out with your co-workers or patients or customers? def not !!!!

But I do want to see Holland to visit a hairdresser/artist that i've been following his videos for a few years (check out "theoknoopkapper" on youtube), and there's more to visit there like the museums, anne frank house... etc. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

oaxaca

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Jul 8, 2014
573
832
263
How many people usually attend bitcoinwednesday Amsterdam?
 

Solarminer

Well-known Member
Apr 4, 2015
762
922
163
Yes, I saw that doc, smart guy, head hunted by a large company so they can skim the top off the world's stocks, alls fair in love and Wall street I suppose, but the difference was they were not tied down to the mathermatical rules of a blockchain consensus (or any other law for that matter!)

At university, we studied how to model things like 2nd order equations for real life engineering problems such as the g-force of a fairground ride.
The masternodes, markets, memory pool, blocksize etc are all interconnected and this has never been done before, not sure how much this would help Dash but it would lend a lot of kudos to the project and provide a solid mathematical backdrop of whats going on (like I have attempted to do with the Tao sync ratio)
Those Uni Professors love their long equations and getting them interested could result in a course on cryptocurrency, Harvard and MIT already are just about to start teaching crypto, this will be taught in classrooms in the future and we could provide the starting blocks for such an erudition.
Just trying to be funny. The Dash system should be secure enough that hijacking can't happen.

I actually think we have similar backgrounds, I have a mechanical engineering degree so I have dabbled with matlab/simulink and CAD in college. Not that I am any good at it now, but good experience none the less.

Here is where I think we need to spend some effort on. How many transactions per second and how fast can they get?
It has got to be a big differential equation with constantly changing fees, coin value, and miner hashrate. It would be interesting to simulate with matlab and graph as time goes on and see if it is underdamped or overdamped. Bitcoin is really at the transaction limit now and comparing Bitcoin to DASH would be useful. Also estimating blockchain growth and pruning will be another item to tackle. And I love the Tao snyc ratio stuff, keep that going.

There is currently a class for Bitcoin/crypto. You can watch videos online. Couldn't find the link to it. Otherwise Andreas wrote a book that has good reviews.
http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Bitcoin-Unlocking-Digital-Crypto-Currencies/dp/1449374042. I would bet any class would start with this book. Maybe you can add some Sub-Ether adendums in it.
 

Sub-Ether

Well-known Member
Mar 31, 2014
1,516
1,254
183
Are you saying the devs shouldn't eat or pay their bills? I think it's been a long time coming for them, how long do we want to make them wait? A C++ programmer can make a whole lot more money somewhere else right now, why should we make them work for free?
Moli, at $2 per day at current market value per masternode income split between 4 developers, we will be fighting off c++ programmers queuing round the block for a job ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Solarminer and moli

moli

Grizzled Member
Aug 5, 2014
3,255
1,830
1,183
Moli, at $2 per day at current market value per masternode income split between 4 developers, we will be fighting off c++ programmers queuing round the block for a job ;)
LOL..

I don't think most people have the foggiest idea how much a skilled programmer can make.
 

Sub-Ether

Well-known Member
Mar 31, 2014
1,516
1,254
183
Just trying to be funny. The Dash system should be secure enough that hijacking can't happen.
I actually think we have similar backgrounds, I have a mechanical engineering degree so I have dabbled with matlab/simulink and CAD in college. Not that I am any good at it now, but good experience none the less.
Here is where I think we need to spend some effort on. How many transactions per second and how fast can they get?
It has got to be a big differential equation with constantly changing fees, coin value, and miner hashrate. It would be interesting to simulate with matlab and graph as time goes on and see if it is underdamped or overdamped. Bitcoin is really at the transaction limit now and comparing Bitcoin to DASH would be useful. Also estimating blockchain growth and pruning will be another item to tackle. And I love the Tao snyc ratio stuff, keep that going.
There is currently a class for Bitcoin/crypto. You can watch videos online. Couldn't find the link to it. Otherwise Andreas wrote a book that has good reviews.
http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Bitcoin-Unlocking-Digital-Crypto-Currencies/dp/1449374042. I would bet any class would start with this book. Maybe you can add some Sub-Ether adendums in it.
Indeed-simulink was mighty powerful I always meant to go back to it but never found a decent application. I like to visualize the markets as positive and negative feedback loops like in electronics, the masternodes themselves provide price dampening in both directions due to market demand (as you suggest)
When the (hoped for)optimizations of the blockchain happen, it will be a real pleasure to work out a Tao sync ratio that smashes the record which we already hold :D.
Your suggestion to read up on cryptocurrencies makes me think to study some theory on merkle trees, as optimization in this area will lead to the fastest possible Tao ratio and smallest transaction sizes possible, as our transactions increase our block sizes get smaller, as it should be, no 8 megabytes blocks required just yet!
 

eduffield

Core Developer
Mar 9, 2014
1,084
5,320
183
Thanks for the input everyone, I just wanted to point out a few things so that we're all on the same page.

This budget system is a really new concept and at this point we're just trying to get a nice framework of how we should interact with it and how the community and masternode network should interact with it. It's going to take some time to figure out, soon we should have a portal (it's a few months out, probably next year), that will provide a place where the proposers will be held accountable and they can interact with the masternode network and community in a structured way. It's hard to even predict how this system will be used in the future, but currently here's what we're thinking:

- No one will get directly paid that works on the project (on a continual basis), except through the core-team budget. This isn't even meant to cover living expenses, it's more of a token of appreciation for what our team does. Hopefully if the team holds on to these coins, they'll be rewarded in the future through price appreciation
- We will pay outside people directly for specific things, such as a website design, legal work, seo, pr, etc. These contractors will be managed by the team, which would be paid from the core-team budget.
- Just because a budget is approved, doesn't mean it's permanent. This system is insanely flexible, the masternode network can change their mind on a dime and downvote and remove proposals at anytime, even proposals that are currently approved and have been paid in the past. This allows us to correct errors quite rapidly.

Because we're just getting started and nothing like the budget system has ever existed in crypto, we're going to just try things and see how it works. We also are going to setup a system so the community can hold us accountable for the money and see where it's going. I think we have a really good idea of how to manage this, but some things might have to change.

A lot of behind the scenes work has went into tweaking this system to be the most effective governance and budgeting possible, but if something doesn't work out we will surely be willing to fix it. Just rest assured, our team is doing the best we can. The results we get from this over the next few months shouldn't disappoint anyone.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ArpFlush

Member
Jan 24, 2015
49
23
48
I've put Oct 7th in my calendar: bitcoin wednesday talks "Dashian". Hope to join you guys ;-)
 

eduffield

Core Developer
Mar 9, 2014
1,084
5,320
183
Budgets Are Live!

I've added the budgets to the system and we are all set to vote. All you have to do to vote is load up a client with the masternode.conf. Your actual funds are NOT required to be online to vote on proposals

core-team :
eac6392cd0d63e4b2ebd3c60da2d3e13137c892cd4cd1a8f3885077ac86b7487

public-awareness :
cbafad18687045bb72fae611078fac09c3ec09c8379e357c36901ce84891f189

reimbursement :
428438998eeb3234b232a3609d2e0f1122049241e5ecad972554ad163772a109

To vote simply execute these commands:

./dash-cli mnbudget vote-many eac6392cd0d63e4b2ebd3c60da2d3e13137c892cd4cd1a8f3885077ac86b7487 yes
./dash-cli mnbudget vote-many cbafad18687045bb72fae611078fac09c3ec09c8379e357c36901ce84891f189 yes
./dash-cli mnbudget vote-many 428438998eeb3234b232a3609d2e0f1122049241e5ecad972554ad163772a109 yes
 

qwizzie

Well-known Member
Aug 6, 2014
1,697
815
183
and for voting with a single masternode change "vote-many" to "vote"
end-result should be : "Voted successfully"

To check the current votes : ./dash-cli mnbudget show
Currently 187 YEAS for all three budget proposals

If you want to specifically vote against a specific budget because you dont agree with it then change the "yes" into a "no"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Raico

Sub-Ether

Well-known Member
Mar 31, 2014
1,516
1,254
183
Judging by the last block payment at 2002228, I make this an 8 year project almost exactly until the end payment.
 

oaxaca

Well-known Member
Foundation Member
Jul 8, 2014
573
832
263
and for voting with a single masternode change "vote-many" to "vote"
end-result should be : "Voted successfully"

To check the current votes : ./dash-cli mnbudget show
Currently 187 YEAS for all three budget proposals

If you want to specifically vote against a specific budget because you dont agree with it then change the "yes" into a "no"

Let's assume that I have a wallet with 2 masternodes listed in masternode.conf.
I want to vote using 1 masternode (ie: less than many)
Is the syntax:
Code:
./dash-cli mnbudget vote-alias mn1 eac63...87 yes
  (where mn1 = the alias of one of the masternodes)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

qwizzie

Well-known Member
Aug 6, 2014
1,697
815
183
Let's assume that I have a wallet with 2 masternodes listed in masternode.conf.
I want to vote using 1 masternode (ie: less than many)
Is the syntax:
Code:
./dash-cli mnbudget vote mn1 eac63...87 yes
  (where mn1 = the alias of one of the masternodes)
i'm having a deju-vu feeling right now :)
(to the others, we are having the exact same discussion on the bitcointalk forum :D)

good question, i leave that for the dev-team to answer