Bitcoin Flash: If Bitcoin and Dash had a baby...

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
So, on Jan 5, 2018, a new coin, based on the Instant X of Dash, but using the existing Bitcoin blockchain is to be released, to be called "Bitcoin Flash." (BTF) It seems that this new coin is not going to have any anonymity features, at least not for now, although I imagine that this could come along later, after the BTF masternode network gets up and running.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this new coin? Here's its site: https://bitcoinflash.io
 

Dandy

Member
Mar 1, 2017
276
99
88
44
Belgrade, Serbia
Well, this is actually a form of flattery. I don't see why would anyone want to use this coin instead of Dash. Only existing Bitcoin holders would actually have any benefit because they would already have some coins, but I'm guessing most of them would probably sell their coins as soon as possible.
It could be a good alternative for Dash miners, though. At least in the short term.
 

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
Well, it does have "Bitcoin" in the name, which can't hurt. But are there technical reasons to choose one over the other?
 

Dandy

Member
Mar 1, 2017
276
99
88
44
Belgrade, Serbia
Well, Dash development team for one.
Yes, they can copy Dash, but I don't see how they can innovate as fast as Dash.
Also, they would be just one of the (now many) Bitcoin forks, or if you look at it another way, one of the copies of Dash. Dash is the original here.
 

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
You know, I was actually thinking about the Dash development team myself. I've been following cryptos for quite a while, and have been simply blown away by the organization and innovation of the Dash team. I'm also of the mind that Dash is the superior coin, but this is an interesting development, and I naturally was (and still am) curious about any other viewpoints on this.
 

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
Will you vote the numbers in your coin?
I have seen you talk about "voting the numbers" over and over, all over the forum. There are many ways of voting, and ALL of them have to do with numbers. There are voting systems which require a majority, some which require a super-majority, countless variations of proportional voting systems, and so on.

First, you would have to describe in complete, unambiguous detail, in a way which everyone on here could easily understand, EXACTLY what YOU mean, when you use that very ambiguous phrase, "voting the numbers." Furthermore, it would be helpful if you explained, again as clearly as possible, what the advantage of YOUR "voting the numbers" has over the current system, or even better, why it might be the OPTIMUM system. Then I will be in a better position to answer you, just as clearly.

Also, please see my answer here.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
I have seen you talk about "voting the numbers" over and over, all over the forum. There are many ways of voting, and ALL of them have to do with numbers. There are voting systems which require a majority, some which require a super-majority, countless variations of proportional voting systems, and so on.

First, you would have to describe in complete, unambiguous detail, in a way which everyone on here could easily understand, EXACTLY what YOU mean, when you use that very ambiguous phrase, "voting the numbers." Furthermore, it would be helpful if you explained, again as clearly as possible, what the advantage of YOUR "voting the numbers" has over the current system, or even better, why it might be the OPTIMUM system. Then I will be in a better position to answer you, just as clearly.

Also, please see my answer here.
Vote the numbers is not a selection process (majority, mean average e.t.c) . Although in order to extract a result form a set of numerical votes you have to choose/vote a selection process . Vote the numbers is just to allow the electorate to vote directly a number, instead of voting yes/no/abstain or rank or range-vote predecided choices (condorcet method or range voting).

I dont care what number you are going to chose to vote. Vote whatever number you like. Vote for the most innocent number. For example, you could vote for the "Adaptive proposal fees" of @GrandMasterDash.

Be the first community in the human history to do that.
 
Last edited:

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
Vote the numbers is not a selection process (majority, mean average e.t.c) . Although in order to extract a result form a set of numerical votes you have to choose/vote a selection process . Vote the numbers is just to allow the electorate to vote directly a number, instead of voting yes/no/abstain or rank or range-vote predecided choices (condorcet method or range voting).

I dont care what number you are going to chose to vote. Vote whatever number you like. Vote for the most innocent number. For example, you could vote for the "Adaptive proposal fees" of @GrandMasterDash.

Be the first community in the human history to do that.
Focus. I am not asking what vote the numbers is NOT. I am asking you to CLEARLY describe EXACTLY what you mean by "vote the numbers."
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Focus. I am not asking what vote the numbers is NOT. I am asking you to CLEARLY describe EXACTLY what you mean by "vote the numbers."
Let an electorate vote for all the initial and regulative values of a system. This is "vote the numbers". Depending on the system, you may discover many initial and regulative values to be voted.

In Dash's case, for example, you may vote for the budget which is 45% mnos-45% miners-10% proposals , you may vote for the maximum number of masternodes, vote for the masternodes collateral fee, vote for the network parameters e.t.c. e.t.c.

For begining, you dont have to deal with all of them. Just pick the easiest one which is vote the "Adaptive proposal fees" of @GrandMasterDash.

The code is almost ready. Will you try it?
 
Last edited:

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
Ok, so "vote for the numbers" means "vote for the numbers which control the protocol?"
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Ok, so "vote for the numbers" means "vote for the numbers which control the protocol?"
Almost that. Additionaly to the numbers which control the protocol, you should vote the numbers which initialize the protocol.
 

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
Well, we already can vote to change the numbers which control the protocol. That's covered by masternode governance already. In order to make an informed vote, however, one would need evidence regarding what numbers would be optimum. In the absence of such evidence, I would say that the current numbers seem to be working just fine, but I would not be adverse to "tweaking" them, if that seemed to be an improvement.

As for changing the numbers which initialize the protocol, wouldn't that mean creating a new coin from scratch?
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Well, we already can vote to change the numbers which control the protocol. That's covered by masternode governance already. In order to make an informed vote, however, one would need evidence regarding what numbers would be optimum. In the absence of such evidence, I would say that the current numbers seem to be working just fine, but I would not be adverse to "tweaking" them, if that seemed to be an improvement.

As for changing the numbers which initialize the protocol, wouldn't that mean creating a new coin from scratch?
"Vote the numbers" is a community driven numerical voiting. The community may decide to switch the runtime of its coin, from one coin type to another. This is what numerical voting capability offers. You dont have to re-create the coin from scratch. You can change it in the runtime. "Vote the numbers" refers to the runtime of the coin and of course it is a vote casted by individuals, not a automated vote casted by masternodes/machines/computers.

"Vote the numbers" refers also to a bounded vote, for all the numbers that have no theory behind. For example, there is no reason why you should have maximum 10000 masternodes and not maximum 11000 masternodes or maximum 9999 masternodes. There is no theory behind this initial number. So this number is a candidate to be voted.
 
Last edited:

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
Votes by Masternodes aren't "automated." They are cast by those who own them.

Also, I can see a danger in changing certain numerical variables in "run time" without testing on testnet first.

So, why do you feel this is such an important issue? No one else seems to, so I would like to know why this is so important in your mind.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
So, why do you feel this is such an important issue? No one else seems to, so I would like to know why this is so important in your mind.
It is not important only to me. It is important also to 458 masternodes.
Maybe you should ask them first.
I am not a masternode, so what I have in my mind does not count a lot.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
But answer the question: WHY is it so important? Why should I care? This is what I want to know.
It is a matter of freedom. Some masternodes accept themselves to be the slaves of the core team, while some others want to be free to choose the numbers.
 

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
It is a matter of freedom. Some masternodes accept themselves to be the slaves of the core team, while some others want to be free to choose the numbers.
It is not a matter of accepting slavery. That would be stupid. It is a matter of thinking that in certain things the core team has more knowledge, and they defer to them for that reason.

Furthermore, Masternode operators are already free to "choose the numbers" for anything they want. All they have to do is make a proposal (or pre-proposal) and vote.

The more you talk about this, and the more I actually understand it, the more it seems like a non issue.

Thanks for clarifying, though. I appreciate it.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
Furthermore, Masternode operators are already free to "choose the numbers" for anything they want. All they have to do is make a proposal (or pre-proposal) and vote.

The more you talk about this, and the more I actually understand it, the more it seems like a non issue.
The proposals and preproposals are not considered to be in the runtime. They are offline.
Of course vote the numbers can also be applied to proposals in case an alternative budget system is applied.

@UdjinM6 wrote code in order to allow the masternodes to vote the numbers (the core team rejected it), so he thinks it is not an non issue. The same applies also to @Pietro Speroni, or to @GrandMasterDash. As long as it is an issue for at least 4 persons, it is not a non issue.
 
Last edited:

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
I should be more specific. This is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. I don't know why those four, or you, consider this so important. I will go further, however, and say that changing certain numbers "at run time" could actually be dangerous to the function of Dash itself. It is FAR safer to test changes before they are applied. I program, and know this from experience.

So, after having you explain your ideas in detail, you have actually convinced me (unintentionally) that this "changing in run time" is a very bad idea. As for "voting the numbers" itself, the present system where anyone can make proposals which the masternode Operators then vote for seems fine. Any "numbers" which need to be changed could be changed that way.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
I should be more specific. This is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. I don't know why those four, or you, consider this so important. I will go further, however, and say that changing certain numbers "at run time" could actually be dangerous to the function of Dash itself.
As I have already told you, the first candidate numbers to be voted are the numbers that have no theory behind.
You choosed these numbers by pure CHANCE , and THIS is what is actually dangerous to the longterm function of the cryptocurrency.
Anyway, I have talk a lot to you, I find your talk very concervative and not interesting at all, so our conversation is over.
 

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
The one "number" I would be okay with voting for, and applying dynamically, would be the Masternode Budget proposal fee. That seems safe enough. As for other types of "numbers," each would have to be examined individually to see if it was or was not appropriate to change them dynamically as well. It would be foolish to make a blanket statement, "Let's dynamically change them all by vote," as that could unintentionally serve to harm or "break" Dash. You may find that "conservative," but I find your approach reckless, although (unsurprisingly) it is completely in line with your apparent desire to create discord and harm Dash.
 

demo

Well-known Member
Apr 23, 2016
3,113
263
153
Dash Address
XnpT2YQaYpyh7F9twM6EtDMn1TCDCEEgNX
The one "number" I would be okay with voting for, and applying dynamically, would be the Masternode Budget proposal fee.
ok...lets do it in your coin.
 

ScioMind

Member
May 28, 2014
183
73
88
For now, Dash is "my coin." I foresee a time when it will essentially be everyone's coin.