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Why is everyone so quiet? Why is the average user so uninvolved?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TheDashGuy, May 14, 2016.

  1. demo2

    demo2 New Member

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    The budget system is imposed to the masternodes by Evan and the core development team. The budget system is not voted or accepted by masternodes in any vote, is it? Also the percentage 10% of the taxes in the budget system, is also imposed, as long as the masternodes never voted with numbers for this percentage. Because voting with numbers is prohibited to masternodes.
     
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  2. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    I'm not here to argue that. You are talking about the project governance again. It has nohing to do with my point about "DASH Nation"
     
  3. demo2

    demo2 New Member

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    The nation is always the result of a state, and a state always needs governance.
    You cannot refer to a nation, whithout taking into account how this nation is formed, under what state and what governance. If you do, you watch only the half side of the coin.
     
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  4. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    I will answer you when you explain how Red Sox Nation (aka Red Sox fans, NOT the team/ownership) is the result of a state and is under a particular governance structure. It's not.
     
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  5. demo2

    demo2 New Member

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    Red Sox Nation is not a real Nation. It is that simple.
    They dont have common custom. They have just a common hobby.
     
    #35 demo2, May 15, 2016
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
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  6. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    And neither is DASH Nation. QED
     
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  7. demo2

    demo2 New Member

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    Yes of course dash is not a nation too. Until now of course.
    Dash is not a state, so how can it be a nation?
    As we already said it, the nation is the result of a state.
    But of course nation differs from the state because the nation may survive after the state's destruction.
     
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  8. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    As usual, it feels like you are eerily inside my head :eek:. Red Sox Nation, along with Free State Project, are my main influences for starting the Dash Nation campaign.

    People have been very receptive to it, as its creating the beginnings of an ideological movement, rather than just asking people to use Dash based on technical merits.

    But it's not for everyone, I realize that. I'm not asking for a formal vote on what to call ourselves, and I never will :) ...we are all Dash.
     
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  9. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    I would disagree, TroyDASH.
    I have come here to learn about DASH, reading language written in my native tongue, which has specific meaning to impart the concepts represented.
    The unpalatable option would be to review code.
    @GreyGhost has made an astute objection, and apparently EvanDuffield concurs.
    Mis-appropriation of the 'DASH' name, used with the modifier 'Nation' could incur decisive action by nation states which would be detrimental to the DASH concept of P2P.
    IMO, it must be stopped. It should never have been allowed.

    I go to Jimmy Wales for definition... This effort is bai mu... bai lan... xiao bai...

    I do not go quietly away in the night.
    rc
     
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  10. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    The idea of the terminology inviting action by actual nation-states might be a valid point. We all know that "DASH Nation" is not referring to an actual nation, but there is the possibility for misconception especially if DASH actually gains ground in its long term goal. I definitely don't see it as an immediate problem anywhere in the short term though, and the concept of it being "allowed" isn't really applicable since it hasn't been endorsed by the development team and nothing has been funded under that name from the blockchain. If anyone can think of a better terminology I'm all ears, but "Dash Nation" I think works just about as well as Red Sox Nation does, which is pretty good.
     
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  11. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Seriously? I think you need to watch this (my segment starts at 5min:30sec):
     
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  12. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    Ha, I had no idea Red Sox Nation was one of the influences for your idea, it was the first thing I thought of though when I first heard the term "Dash Nation". Being from the northeast US myself, and a baseball fan, it's a term I'm quite familiar with.
     
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  13. Comodore

    Comodore Member

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    Dash and dash nation is not the same thing.

    There is already a bitnation.

    Nation states are bringing doom wherever they are. Being alternative for them is only a good thing.
     
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  14. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    I completely agree.
     
  15. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    You are wrong. States may bring doom whenever they are.
    But the lack of state will bring doom.

    Nations are the result of a state, but you cannot blame nations for the doom that is caused by states.

    P.S. please someone to fix the javascript errors occuring in my profile.
     
  16. Voluntary

    Voluntary Member

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    @GreyGhost You take issue with the word 'nation' but 'sovereign' and 'collective' pass muster?

    @demo How can the Dash budget system be a tax if nobody puts a gun to my head if I decide to opt out?

    @rustycase Do you really think use of a word would incur 'decisive action' from a nation state or would it more likely be a convenient pretext for punishment of disobedient slaves that dared to abandon their paper currency? Although... The people that do business as 'government' *did* get pretty tetchy about use of the word 'dollar'... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_von_NotHaus

    But, to get back on topic, I think there can be a positive aspect to forum quietness - everyone is going about their business without issue.
     
    #46 Voluntary, May 16, 2016
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  17. demo3

    demo3 New Member

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    You can also opt out from your state, if you want to avoid taxes. But as long as you live into an area that your state controls, you are obliged to pay taxes, and the same happens to dash also.

    If you dont pay taxes and you live in a state, the state has to put a gun in your head to take them. If you live in dash nation they dont put the gun in you head, simply because they take the taxes anyway, and you are unable to avoid taxation because taxation is written in the protocol of dash.

    The problem is not that dash has taxes, the problem is that dash dont let masternode owners to decide the amount of taxes (means dash prohibits voting with numbers and the 10% tax is a hardcoded number)
     
    #47 demo3, May 16, 2016
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  18. Voluntary

    Voluntary Member

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    @demo Are you honestly arguing that MN owners should decide how much they're paid? What do you think that would achieve?

    Also, as I don't mine Dash, what you refer to as a tax doesn't have any impact on me. But, if I did mine, any income I received would have been generated by the Dash protocol, so this is quite unlike the parasitic nation state.
     
  19. Sub-Ether

    Sub-Ether Well-known Member

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    Love these buttons, how can I vote more than once on a single comment ?
     
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  20. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Where have you been hiding, man? I've missed your wit...
     
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  21. camosoul

    camosoul Grizzled Member

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    "Why is the average user so uninvolved?"

    Because getting involved means you're no longer an average user. And that means you're a target for those who then have a guilt fetish about being lazy, but want to knock down the useful, instead of get off their asses. It's the popular attitude to be a Social Justice Warrior Victim-Status whiner who just sits around getting free shit, declaring it sexist/racist/ageist/whatever that the free shit is insufficient buy them a new Mercedes every week....

    Realize what an "average user" of crypto is, and it's not confusing at all. SJW + Ponzi.

    Speaking of, what's with the moon getting closer?
     
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  22. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    IMO... a newbie opinion, at that ! ... IF someone takes such great pride in DASH participation, request permission from the MN's and print up DASH T-shirts and market them. For profit, or at cost, no matter... It's actually a darn catchy logo !
    My own opinion is objection to the 'nation' qualifier whether it's a simile to the Sox or not. We've all seen msm presentations on the football hooligans, and that behaviour would be quite detrimental and, possibility of that could be deaalt with with pre-emptive action in certain and specific Very populous mega-manufacturing nation states where, IMO again, DASH should endeavor to expand.
    It is my position, for consideration by those interested, that anything which might constitute any sort of impediment to DASH should be avoided like the plague.
    Best
    rc
     
  23. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    OK, tos, I watched it, and your segment, specifically...
    Wow!
    What can I say ?
    What a creepy azz bow tie and I am conflicted by 582 subs, with 1k views and only 38 likes.
    I can see you are excited and exuberant over DASH. I'll give you points for that.
    I did mark the vid, and may go back and pick it apart, but I'm NOT a sports fan.
    As a DASH proponent, I'll take Amanda B. Johnson @ Daily Decrypt, AnyDay ! Yet now, she's departed... My loss.
    < I > work. I work for others. It's a P2P relationship.
    I do competent work. I expect to be compensated upon satisfactory completion of whatever task I have been assigned by contract.
    P2P works fine for me, without involving some cartel that manipulates the purchasing power of whatever nomenclature I am paid for my labor with.
    Peachy to see you are elated and a cheerful sort of fellow. I like that.
    To make any allegation of remuneration for the effort I put into laboring away at any project, in the same light as the diversion of entertainment value achieved by those who follow a corporate owned professional sports team is a perversion of P2P inter-action, where the rubber meets the road... real life.
    I <think> you mentioned religion... Gosh, tos... would you really think it wise to promote any sort of correlation between the payment method we wish to employ when we inter-act with other persons and personal theological concepts ?
    I looked up the accepted definition of "tao" to see what you are about... Do you really feel this is 'the path' ? ...That DASH should take ???
    I just wanna get compensation for construction work and take that to the market place and buy a turnip !
    tos, this is shooting from the hip, and not a prepared response to your video representation, or other topics you have presented.
    You are certainly worthy of a response, and my credential as newbie speaks for itself... rc
     
  24. rustycase

    rustycase Active Member

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    Decisive action ?
    One word... well, two...
    Falun Gong.

    But yes, V... I agree with you... 'everyone is going about their business without issue.'
    This is how it should be. Use DASH and make it stronger !
    ...and don't confuze it with other things like political implications...

    Best
    rc
     
  25. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Irrelevant criticism of Bitcoin Rush and his style and level of success aside, I'm happy you watched my video and provided me feedback. I'm not arguing with you, I'd prefer AJ as well, she's much cuter than me... ;) It's funny that you mention her, though, because the same night when that video was released, she tweeted me to say I did a good job. She is a believer in the Dash Nation concept as it incorporates a powerful message of belonging and promoting privacy and financial freedom.

    This is not your style? That's OK, there are many different people in this world, who would be drawn to different aspects of Dash. The Dash Nation campaign has welcomed many people to our community that may not have joined if we didn't present this way of thinking. You think that we should engage outsiders in a different way? That's great! You can cater to the people that you are trying to attract with your own style, and I will continue doing what I'm doing. You will get people here, and so will I. I will be behind you every step of the way.

    And you know what? The people we bring in with our different styles will all use Dash. And isn't that the point?
     
  26. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    It's your animal magnetism, the moon can't resist you!

    RE: the budget being a tax, I don't get that at all. The budget system funds are never touched by MN owners or Miners, thus they never had to pay it out of their funds. And besides that, MN owners and community members gave overwhelming support for the budget system. Not only that, they "voted" by switching over to it. If the MN network were to vote now, "should we eliminate the 10% budget and take the funds for ourselves" I'm sure more than 95% would say no because they know that those funds help with development, and development ultimately gives Dash far more value.

    To the people that have been complaining lately, where do you come from? Are you really so short-sighted and greedy? Or are you our new Dash.org forum trolls? I suspect the latter.
     
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  27. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    Because something is generated by a protocol, this does not mean that it is not a tax. It is a protocol generated tax.

    What I mainly argue is that 10% is a hardcoded number, thus a wrong number. This is not correct, it should be a number that fits to the will of the active members of the community. If you have a theory explaining why 10% is the correct number for the community of today, then it is ok. But you have not. So in the case a number has no theory, then this number should vary in order to fit best into the community's current needs (and vary again in order to fit to the future needs of course).

    And who is about to decide the change of that number? It is either Evan, or the core team, or the MN owners, or the miners, or the wallet owners. I am in favor of the third or fourth option. I dont think the fifth option (wallet owners) is appropriate, because wallet owners get benefits from the budget (for example they hope the basic income to be written in the budget).

    So lets inspect the decision tree to be voted, and how polls are dependant eachother. More dependent polls could occur of course, this is just the simpliest decision tree example about this subject.

    Poll:Should 10% budget be a constant number for the present and the future?(yes/no/other)
    ---Voted yes/other---> end
    ---Voted no-------------> Poll:Should Evan decide the change of this number? (yes/no/other)
    Poll:Should core team decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
    Poll:Should MN owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
    ------ Voted no/other--->end
    -------Voted yes -----------> Poll: Should MN owners decide that change by voting with numbers? (yes/no/other)
    Poll:Should miners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)
    Poll:Should wallet owners decide the change of this number?(yes/no/other)

    And who is allowed to vote into this decision tree? Evan and the core team currently.

    But I claim that at least MN owners should also be allowed to vote on it. Not by voting a simple yes or no for a proposed budget percentage, but by voting with a number, a number between 0% and 100%. And then the poll result should be the average of all the number votes.
     
    #57 demo, May 18, 2016
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
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  28. bluebit

    bluebit Active Member

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    I'm not much involved cause I'm watching the price of ETH, it's going to mooooooooon
     
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  29. demo

    demo Well-known Member

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    http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/views/all/

    If you sort the last 7 days, if ETH is going to moon, GoldMaxCoin, Mapcoin and Dubaicoin are going to Mars.
     
  30. TroyDASH

    TroyDASH Well-known Member

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    There has been a lot of discussion on who is/should be/will be in charge of decisions like this, buried in the Dash Nation Consensus thread.
    https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dash-nation-consensus-discussion.8759/

    There was also oaxaca's idea regarding dynamically allocated budgeting:
    https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/dynamically-allocated-budgeting.8501/

    It's a really good thing to talk about, IMO, but keep in mind the distinctions between what the network is capable of right now, versus what it might be capable of in the future, and what is or isn't technically feasible to implement. Right now the reality is as an open-source decentralized network, the method for how protocol changes are accepted by the DASH network is very similar if not the same as Bitcoin.