Vote: Self-sustainable Decentralized Governance by Blockchain

TanteStefana

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I find coingun's idea intriguing. I don't think it can be made to work, but still, an interesting idea for certain. If someone votes with start-many, they only get one vote. So the voting would be more of a popular vote rather than a shares vote. However, a program would quickly be created to vote individually on many wallets, so I don't think it'd work. Also, start-many has made us all able to run our masternodes completely in cold storage, which is very nice.

Still, I think it might be worth hashing about for a while?
 

raganius

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Regarding "inequality", I'd like to share this video:

UNIVERSITY OF NICOSIA MSc in Digital Currency
MOOC 3.0 Session 1


edit: for the specific subject of "inequality" please start at 32:00 min.

edit 2: It is not my intention here to attack anyone directly, I just feel it's necessary to express my concern when I see some dangerous opinions that, IMO, have the potential for bad consequences if ever "adopted" by the community. But all the complaints about the inequality (including the boring "instamine" FUD) are exaclty what the trolls have been doing against us...
... sorry to quote this here... but I have to, as an evidence of what I am saying:

There's quite a fine tuning in these discourses. Let's not feed it amongst us.

(I dare make myself clearer: The Mao Tse-tungian ideas of popular power are nonsense... unless I got all wrong... Now I'll rephrase myself: If not respected, serious investors will never be willing to put their (hard earned) money in a power redistribution machine.)
They will go away... and we, the powerful, but poor, people, will remain... as bagholders ; )
 
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TanteStefana

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@raganius, It's not really the inequity that worries me. That's not why I found CoinGun's idea intriguing. It's the worry that one entity could take control of the coin's direction because they hold enough votes to nix projects and give other projects the green light. I know it's the same thing that happens in big corporations. If there were a way to limit votes by entities, it'd be really awesome. But I don't think there is.

Perhaps the best thing to do is not really make a quorum per se, but to make a vote time sensitive (like 2 weeks) and do a popular vote. This way if a bad idea is being backed by a large holder, the community can make a loud uproar to get other masternodes to vote against the bad idea (or for the good idea). I don't think anyone will ever have more than 1/4 of the masternodes, it would be impossible anymore, and making voting an easy interface, with easily distinguished selection option for each project should make it much more likely that we will be able to keep a high voting turnout.

Of course a smart large holder, who wants something done that isn't beneficial to DASH as a whole, could wait until the last second to vote, so that nobody knows there is a danger of such a project being voted in, but this is getting pretty paranoid. Plus there will be a system in place to stop projects as well, and whoever owns the large masternode block is still highly unlikely to vote something bad in, as they have a long term investment in the project. (arguably their married to it, as they can't just dump that kind of holding).

So in the end, yah, the idea was intriguing, but I can't see a way to make it work, and more so, there is unlikely to be a reason where we really need it to work. But kicking around ideas is a good thing unless it paralyzes us. :tongue:
 
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raganius

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@raganius, It's not really the inequity that worries me. That's not why I found CoinGun's idea intriguing. It's the worry that one entity could take control of the coin's direction because they hold enough votes to nix projects and give other projects the green light. I know it's the same thing that happens in big corporations. If there were a way to limit votes by entities, it'd be really awesome. But I don't think there is.
(...)
I know, it sounds scary at first, after all, we have always been taught that the powerfull people oppress us the fragile people. But is the fear justifiable?

I wonder if it is possible that a large holder, with obvious financial interest in their investment, will act in way to make this investment lose, or fail. I can hardly imagine, unless that's a very inept investor (if so, I wonder how come this investor was able to become such big investor).

It works the same with miners. People are worried of big miners. But what miner would work to destroy the currency they have invested (and usually invested a lot, with expensive equipment)? Who would want to endanger their own investment?

There's one possibility, as I can see it: if there's no financial interest. So it's not an investment, it's an attack. If there's only political interest. In this case someone (a bank? a government?) would spend a GREAT deal of fiat money in order to TRY to achieve the demise of the "investment".

But in the case of any "bigger" cryptocurrency, DASH, to be more specific, the software itself is enough to curb, and to give a solution in real time, because it's a decentralised network, and the honest peers, noticing the action of the rogue actor, will not consent. It's as simple as that, after all, we have decided here for a "Decentralized Governance", but this governance, it's decisions are never absolute, because it will still need the network consensus.

Or are the Masternodes absolute, disregarding the other peers (like the Miners, a very important group)? Such attacks will not happen overnight. It will take time, and people will notice, and ring the alarms.

In case of emergency break glass and bring order to the network again ;)
 

Otoh

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It's Otoh. It would be nice if people would stop handing him so much DASH for cheap, but it really doesn't concern me; I believe him when he says he's interested in the long term potential of Dash's 2-tier decentralized design.
Yep the 600 odd MN votes were mine, the 7k buy wall wasn't me or the buyer that I met in Amsterdam as I've agreed to sell him 20,000 DASH @ €2.50 ($2.86) because he's now a colleague and it's good to encourage new large buyers imo, but it would also be nice for the price if he bought on the exchanges, he'll decide, at least this will cover my hosting and management fees for a long time, so far they have all come out of my previous BTC and fiat holdings rather than selling any of the DASH MN rewards.

I'm enjoying the YouTube video from the next page and watching it in it's entirety. Re attempting to place limits on the votes of large holders, as others have pointed out - this is counterproductive and anyway any holder can easily hide their total number of coins and/or masternodes, I've just chosen to be open about this and also hopefully responsive, at least now 20,000 DASH are getting redistributed to a new (& smart imo) holder.
 

moli

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Yep the 600 odd MN votes were mine, the 7k buy wall wasn't me or the buyer that I met in Amsterdam as I've agreed to sell him 20,000 DASH @ €2.50 ($2.86) because he's now a colleague and it's good to encourage new large buyers imo, but it would also be nice for the price if he bought on the exchanges, he'll decide, at least this will cover my hosting and management fees for a long time, so far they have all come out of my previous BTC and fiat holdings rather than selling any of the DASH MN rewards.

I'm enjoying the YouTube video from the next page and watching it in it's entirety. Re attempting to place limits on the votes of large holders, as others have pointed out - this is counterproductive and anyway any holder can easily hide their total number of coins and/or masternodes, I've just chosen to be open about this and also hopefully responsive, at least now 20,000 DASH are getting redistributed to a new (& smart imo) holder.
Hi Otoh,

I was glad to see the wallet number 1 become Masternodes, just when more MNs were needed for InstantX. A few of us were bouncing around with the ideas of how to fund our devs months ago, and back then I kept seeing the wallet number 1 with 400k+ drk and wondering and hoping it wasn't the NSA .. lol.. I did make a comment here: https://dashtalk.org/threads/drk-team-tips-crowd-funding.2929/#post-28822. Just glad to know it's you and not some other unfavorable entity. :)

I'm also glad Evan and the dev team came up with this plan for the future of this coin. Looking back here were a few threads from a few concerned members that raised this issue:
https://dashtalk.org/threads/supporting-darkcoin-dev-team.2962/
https://dashtalk.org/threads/drk-team-tips-crowd-funding.2929/
 

fible1

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May 11, 2014
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Yep the 600 odd MN votes were mine, the 7k buy wall wasn't me or the buyer that I met in Amsterdam as I've agreed to sell him 20,000 DASH @ €2.50 ($2.86) because he's now a colleague and it's good to encourage new large buyers imo, but it would also be nice for the price if he bought on the exchanges, he'll decide, at least this will cover my hosting and management fees for a long time, so far they have all come out of my previous BTC and fiat holdings rather than selling any of the DASH MN rewards.

I'm enjoying the YouTube video from the next page and watching it in it's entirety. Re attempting to place limits on the votes of large holders, as others have pointed out - this is counterproductive and anyway any holder can easily hide their total number of coins and/or masternodes, I've just chosen to be open about this and also hopefully responsive, at least now 20,000 DASH are getting redistributed to a new (& smart imo) holder.
If you're talking about the buy wall on Crytpsy last week, that was me :D.

Pablo.
 

fible1

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Cool. Going to be setting up some Masternodes?
Flare already set them up for me today.

I am trying to free up some cash to buy a couple more, we'll see.

I would love to hear about what our PR strategy will be 1 year or so down the road to really drop more serious cash in.

Pablo.
 
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TaoOfSatoshi

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Flare already set them up for me today.

I am trying to free up some cash to buy a couple more, we'll see.

I would love to hear about what our PR strategy will be 1 year or so down the road to really drop more serious cash in.

Pablo.
I don't know what the official strategy is going to be, but I can tell you that I'm still plugging away on Twitter, generating interest each day, and encouraging participation through sign-ups and Masternode creation. If we all worked on PR as hard as tungfa and I, we would be much further ahead.

The PR video that was crowd funded is in production, watch for it to be released soon. That will help us with our efforts. Beyond that, we have the Dash Ambassador Group that is spreading the word as well.
 

fible1

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I don't know what the official strategy is going to be, but I can tell you that I'm still plugging away on Twitter, generating interest each day, and encouraging participation through sign-ups and Masternode creation. If we all worked on PR as hard as tungfa and I, we would be much further ahead.

The PR video that was crowd funded is in production, watch for it to be released soon. That will help us with our efforts. Beyond that, we have the Dash Ambassador Group that is spreading the word as well.
Yep, it's clear the community, and you guys in particular invest a lot of time spreading the word and generating interest/answering questions. If we want to take it up an order of magnitude though we'll need a PR firm down the road, we need to get articles on WIRED and FORTUNE and spread the word at a higher level than individual users once the code is up to par.

That's what I really like of the project funding from the blockchain itself, the money will be there, but it's important to know that we need established corporate actors to really get the message out once the code is mostly set. That is if we plan to compete with Bitcoin.

Pablo
 

TanteStefana

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I'm noticing more people are voting nay. I'm wondering, of those who vote nay, what it is that they don't like? Is it the whole concept? Do they think we won't be able to make it work well? Or is it the perceived loss of income? Or do they not like that this will likely result in fewer masternodes?
 

UdjinM6

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I'm noticing more people are voting nay. I'm wondering, of those who vote nay, what it is that they don't like? Is it the whole concept? Do they think we won't be able to make it work well? Or is it the perceived loss of income? Or do they not like that this will likely result in fewer masternodes?
I noted more "Abstain"s not "Nay"s and it's normal imo - some tried to vote when there was nothing to vote for and now their votes are slowly expiring.
Votes should expire after 30 days now https://github.com/dashpay/dash/com...9e9#diff-5b3ee4ae31c42258e455ac00fa11e83dR805
Anyway
Voting will begin immediately and be open for 2 weeks. We will consider the vote successful if at any time we have 51% of the masternodes support.
So I guess we made it :cool:
 

Solarminer

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It looks like votes are expiring in ~13 days not 30 days. I voted on May 7 and my votes expired. I just re-voted and pushed us up over 70%. This vote is statistically significant. In other words, the minimal amount of 5 no votes out of 1827 yes, shows that the vast majority wanted this proposal to move forward.
 

tungfa

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Yep, it's clear the community, and you guys in particular invest a lot of time spreading the word and generating interest/answering questions. If we want to take it up an order of magnitude though we'll need a PR firm down the road, we need to get articles on WIRED and FORTUNE and spread the word at a higher level than individual users once the code is up to par.

That's what I really like of the project funding from the blockchain itself, the money will be there, but it's important to know that we need established corporate actors to really get the message out once the code is mostly set. That is if we plan to compete with Bitcoin.

Pablo
There is more to it than just hire a PR firm

I have many direct contacts to fortune , Forbes , WSJ ,(for my day job) .... I had conversations with them before regarding crypto stories BTC and Dash related . The general public and the "real" magazines are barely ready for BTC. Many writers and publications are interested but will not run a story like that, it is still NOT mainstream enough. Even BTC has a hard time getting into real magazines and so it is even harder for Dash.
Wired is easier as there it is all about sex , drugs and rock n roll, but less interest in the tech details .
These things take time ! I am all for pro advice PR related , but we can not (and will not) only throw money on something or somebody who promises us "the moon"
Remember we are still a super neash market and that is after BTC which is as well a neash !

I know that everybody is expecting the big PR push and suddenly we double our market cab, sorry but reality check in the current market , this will be much slower and propably different than you expect.
Dash is still a one on one thing and works the best to convert people like that . Social media posts , local meet ups , conferences , ... And pushing Dash in different languages and countries ! We are making great progress in Russia and China , I still have Brazil/ Argentina on top of my list to attack next.

Everybody can help in this ! Talk to people (online and offline) , get out of the dct and BCT bubble and spread the Dash word to others ! One by one .... And later everybody else (and maybe the moon ;))
 
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fible1

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There is more to it than just hire a PR firm

I have many direct contacts to fortune , Forbes , WSJ ,(for my day job) .... I had conversations with them before regarding crypto stories BTC and Dash related . The general public and the "real" magazines are barely ready for BTC. Many writers and publications are interested but will not run a story like that, it is still NOT mainstream enough. Even BTC has a hard time getting into real magazines and so it is even harder for Dash.
Wired is easier as there it is all about sex , drugs and rock n roll, but less interest in the tech details .
These things take time ! I am all for pro advice PR related , but we can not (and will not) only throw money on something or somebody who promises us "the moon"
Remember we are still a super neash market and that is after BTC which is as well a neash !

I know that everybody is expecting the big PR push and suddenly we double our market cab, sorry but reality check in the current market , this will be much slower and propably different than you expect.
Dash is still a one on one thing and works the best to convert people like that . Social media posts , local meet ups , conferences , ... And pushing Dash in different languages and countries ! We are making great progress in Russia and China , I still have Brazil/ Argentina on top of my list to attack next.

Everybody can help in this ! Talk to people (online and offline) , get out of the dct and BCT bubble and spread the Dash word to others ! One by one .... And later everybody else (and maybe the moon ;))
I think we are confusing doing a real and sustained, professional, PR campaign with getting scammed by someone who as you say "promises us the moon". I have worked with many PR firms in the past for distribution of both niche and mass produced products and services and a sustained PR push with a reputable firms makes all the difference. I'm not saying now, but when we have a finalized code we have to do it, because we want to get mainstream adoption, and a person by person approach will get us only so far.

I think we have to look at ourselves as a start up, and what tends to be a real tech start ups highest expense once they get out of Beta? PR believe it or not.

Further, price is a reflection of usability and adoption, and we are focusing a lot of effort on usability now, and we will for the foreseeable future, but we need to have a conversation about adoption at some point. And if we are aiming for adoption, aiming for mass adoption is the best move.

Pablo.
 

tungfa

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I think we are confusing doing a real and sustained, professional, PR campaign with getting scammed by someone who as you say "promises us the moon". I have worked with many PR firms in the past for distribution of both niche and mass produced products and services and a sustained PR push with a reputable firms makes all the difference. I'm not saying now, but when we have a finalized code we have to do it, because we want to get mainstream adoption, and a person by person approach will get us only so far.

I think we have to look at ourselves as a start up, and what tends to be a real tech start ups highest expense once they get out of Beta? PR believe it or not.

Further, price is a reflection of usability and adoption, and we are focusing a lot of effort on usability now, and we will for the foreseeable future, but we need to have a conversation about adoption at some point. And if we are aiming for adoption, aiming for mass adoption is the best move.

Pablo.
i totally agree
and i am happy to hear that you understand PR and the investment needed !!
for now it is all about coding and pushing that to the max ,
and then (i agree) it will be time to push this to the next level as a general project with PR and not only coding.
the blockchain funding will be great, we from the marketing team have our worries regarding funding , as all talk is about code
and not PR, but happy to see that there is support for us in the community.
we still have a way to go (obviously) but with the help of everybody involved we will definitely get there !
 

TaoOfSatoshi

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i totally agree
and i am happy to hear that you understand PR and the investment needed !!
for now it is all about coding and pushing that to the max ,
and then (i agree) it will be time to push this to the next level as a general project with PR and not only coding.
the blockchain funding will be great, we from the marketing team have our worries regarding funding , as all talk is about code
and not PR, but happy to see that there is support for us in the community.
we still have a way to go (obviously) but with the help of everybody involved we will definitely get there !
Yes, improve the product first, then when it is close to its final form, then we do the full-court press PR so that when people respond to that PR, they are not disappointed in the product and discourage their friends. Word-of-mouth is powerful as well, and it will help us having people happy with Dash.
 

tungfa

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we have to simplify Dash and wallets and downloads as much as possible !!
alex-ru made some very good suggestions the other day and are talked about now and details worked out

90% on here are super tech savvy, i am not, and the general public is even less,
so we have to get this as simple as possible for any adoption !
there is work to do for all of us !

- guides / update guides
- translate guides
- translate white papers
- translate anything to push into local language markets
- fix those wiki's (wiki.dashpay.io is pretty good now)
- translate those wiki's into your language
- start local language pages (the russians and chinese are making great progress there) Social Media or real Webpages, or chat groups,...
........
show Dash presence wherever you can and want !
conferences, local BTC meet up's, chat groups, pages,.....
:)
 

alex-ru

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Yes, improve the product first, then when it is close to its final form, then we do the full-court press PR so that when people respond to that PR, they are not disappointed in the product and discourage their friends. Word-of-mouth is powerful as well, and it will help us having people happy with Dash.
I would mention that PR could be very different, targeted to different group of audience - is it not only about mass public supposed to use dash "in the shop".

  • Readers of Forbes, WSJ, ... may don't care about "is the interface beautiful" or "is Darksend mixing fast" at the present time. But they may be interested in getting good ROI with DASH in nearest 5 years.
  • Programmers from Tech sites may don't care about ROI, but may be interested in attend "Developers contest" or even interested in becoming part of something really great (Dash team ;)).
  • MLM-people may not be interested in code and ROI, but they know how to organize people's network to multiply community (and price) in short period of time.
  • ... and so on.
So IMO we don't need to wait forever for being perfect before start acting. There is alway area for some niche (targeted) PR.
 

Darkuopm

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I know this is late in the discussion; I have mostly been reading as time permitted, however I did not see this particular idea presented and if it was I apologize that I missed it. Just a small suggestion on the voting system of the Master Nodes. I agree that allowing Master Nodes Operators control the funding account thru voting is a great idea. However, there will most certainly be those MN operators who are not interested in keeping up on the forms and voting. To this end I think there should be the option for MN's to choose an OPT-OUT of voting setting. This IMO would change the dynamics of the system if only the MN who had not OPT-OUT were counted in the vote. I know Abstain is similar but it is snot the same. With the OPT-OUT feature we would see a better read of Yea and Nay percentage compared to Abstain. A MN operator may chose to stay opted in but want to abstain from a vote due to real indifference on the particular vote and that would be more clear if those who really were not interested/ had the time/ had already OPT-OUT. In my line of work there are times when I am overwhelmed and would not be able to seriously follow what is being voted on. I would OPT-OUT during those times and back in when I could make informed votes. Also as a side note it had been proposed to fine those who don't vote, which I am completely against, however, if tragically it moved that direction the OPT-OUT would allow operators to abstain without penalty.
 

deusstultus

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I know this is late in the discussion; I have mostly been reading as time permitted, however I did not see this particular idea presented and if it was I apologize that I missed it. Just a small suggestion on the voting system of the Master Nodes. I agree that allowing Master Nodes Operators control the funding account thru voting is a great idea. However, there will most certainly be those MN operators who are not interested in keeping up on the forms and voting. To this end I think there should be the option for MN's to choose an OPT-OUT of voting setting. This IMO would change the dynamics of the system if only the MN who had not OPT-OUT were counted in the vote. I know Abstain is similar but it is snot the same. With the OPT-OUT feature we would see a better read of Yea and Nay percentage compared to Abstain. A MN operator may chose to stay opted in but want to abstain from a vote due to real indifference on the particular vote and that would be more clear if those who really were not interested/ had the time/ had already OPT-OUT. In my line of work there are times when I am overwhelmed and would not be able to seriously follow what is being voted on. I would OPT-OUT during those times and back in when I could make informed votes. Also as a side note it had been proposed to fine those who don't vote, which I am completely against, however, if tragically it moved that direction the OPT-OUT would allow operators to abstain without penalty.
The most practical implementation here would be to enable "abstain" as a valid voting option and set the default vote to null rather than "ABSTAIN." This would implement the desired functionality without too much convolution of the voting system. At the end of the voting period, or for any official vote counts, all null votes would read the same as abstain (because that is exactly what they are) but allow those interested in aggregating the data to make such claims of masternode involvement.
 
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HowlingMad

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Sorry, late to the party have not been keeping up with the announcements.

An Update To The Proposal
{
"one" : {
Some URL,
"BlockStart" : 1000,
"BlockEnd" : 24922,
"PaymentCountTotal" : 1,
"PaymentCountLeft" : 1,
"PaymentAddress" : "yDrdpBqfExiGbssu388t2k3N3de2KsWeNN",
"Ratio" : 1.00000000,
"Yeas" : 1,
"Nays" : 0,
"Abstains" : 0,
"Alloted" : 7500000000,
"TotalBudgetAlloted" : 7500000000
}
}
Eduffield,
Some suggestions regarding:
  • The proposal number could be the next block generated or the last block generated by automatic query of the blockchain. This would prevent any mixup between the sites.
  • The values for USD in the blockchain is a great idea but where will that data come from? Cryptsy, Bitfinex, and some other sites have a different dollar amount. So this value would need to be calculated for every block.
  • See item above, USD, EUR, YEN, etc. embedded in the chain would be valuable for businesses, etc. but do you limit it to the 3 major currencies only.
  • You would be locking the payout amounts per block permanently by specifying number of blocks until completion. If I say I need $8000, and I am getting $1 per block you cannot raise the reward per block because you are paying 10% of the block.
  • What is considered a 'winning' vote? 51% of the number of votes placed or 51% of the total MN's?
The websites I saw with vote counts are really cool but you gentlemen forgot that there will be multiple votes going on at the same time, so plan accordingly.
 
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