Should Platform run on all nodes or should Platform run only on High Performance nodes ?
- Thread starter qwizzie
- Start date
The only scripts available are in bash, and are used to search the blockchain and produce the list of crowdnode addresses.
They are pre-alpha, maybe buggy, so until @ndrezza confirms that our list is somehow correct, it is meaningless to publish them.
Not to mention that the script takes about 9 hours to finish. Anyway, if @xkcd thinks we should publish them, its ok with me.
Based on the list of the published crowdnode addresses, someone can create a script and discover all the votes. This script seems to me much more easy to be written, and it will not take much time to finish. But this script has not been written yet, at all. Not a single line.
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That is true but atleast its better the other alternatives i seen.
And you have some great skills reading the MNOwatch. Its pretty amazing actually. Even if its not 100% accurate. And i agree with pretty much of everything you have been saying.
ps. i sometimes renew my node, maybe sell when there is price jump or buy when there is a big dump....so there is that.
I agree also, its both!
This is sort of scarry to read.
I still struggle to even get the basic. Can you or anyone give me 3 usecases for platform as a end user?
Instead of talking about tech lets talk about usecases. How much data would the 95% of the usecases require?
The price for that amount of data?
The risk&reward for 1k/4k etc can come after above. In my view if we want to be the best cash + having features like wallet ID, image etc that will not need that much data to justify the centralization. Paying even 1 dollar to create a account is OK.
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This goes back to when i ask who are we competing with? ETH? AVAX? BSC/SOL/ALG.....
If so why would anyone go with our platform? what is the killer application that would attract devs? With so so so many competition out there which have much deeper pockets and are way way ahead of us. Sure its never to late to get into the game but you need to offer something that is 10x better then the rest. Do we have that? What is it?
It's one thing to add the possibility to make our core value (digital cash) even better but its another to risk what we want to be best at and jump into a new field that is already overcrowded.
So again why do we push for platform so hard? Can you even give me 3 top whatever that you think will make Dash better?
What would the data need be for that? The cost if we run on 1k nodes?
Don't want to be disrespectful or rude or anything but Has anyone actually thought about these things before jumping into development? (again i remind you that i'm a product manager so i think first what is the usecase, value and why we do this even before talking tech)...
I know i'm very late into the game and we spent a ton on this but i really like to understand this in order to support what we are doing.
These are good questions, but even Product Managers get it wrong sometimes, Luna/Terra. What was the point of learning about Quantum Mechanics? Well nothing at first, but ultimately that understanding is what under pins computers. It's hard to know exactly what use cases Platform will have because it is so versatile. Consider Ethereum for example, when it first launched you knew it as the 'world computer', but even so, you had no idea that its main use case would be to scam people in particular ICOs in 2017 and NFTs in 2021. Can you guess the next scam on Ethereum for the 2024 bull run?
Same shit with Platform, luckily, the MNOs decided on the 4k solution, so we don't throw the whole network under the bus, if it fails, we just reconfigure the network again, but by running Evo on just a few nodes, we limit the risk in case it doesn't pan out.
1st usecase. A replicated governance tree.
2nd usecase. An irrefutable decentralized search engine, that will compete google's (controled by agents and companies) or mnowatch's (controled by me and @xkcd ) centralized search engines.
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Use cases is one thing but finding the killer use cases is something entirely different. Personally, I don't see how anyone can know with certainty. We do know that dash wallet and treasury will move to it, but that's too self-serving. I will say, though, that a lot of what Platform does can be achieved through Bullet Proofs and Zero Knowledge Proofs. Generalized ZKPs are advancing quite a bit now, it's just that DCG don't have enough technical ability to deal with it, so they built Platform instead.
Sure there is no guarantee even PM's get it wrong sometimes. But we need to ask the questions. Who is the competetor? I still don't know the answer.
Do we think our solution is 10x better or allot better? how so?
Why are we doing a generic platform? to me this seems to be deviating from our main usecase.
What was the goal when we started Platform?
If we had some specific usecases in mind why don't we simply build towards that instead of making something very generic. I remember working at Ericsson long way back. This was actually the reason their mobile division went belly up. Instead of focusing on making a product that simply worked they did a huge generic monster that never got ready or was good enough. And in the end no one wanted it since it was inferior in many ways.
I don't want us to do the same misstake!
Exactly! Considering we still spend allot on Platform, do you think its to late to change course now?
To me its never to late but some might not agree.
If we don't need something that is very expensive to maintain and is not what we really need i think its wise to reconsider.
Food for thought
The backstory is, Evan had these ideas of how to make dash "so easy your grandmother could use it". It was fueled by community members such as myself because that also was exactly my first thought on crypto in general. Evan mentioned usernames and savings accounts and actual physical branches you could walk into for help. MNOs would eventually run dedicated hardware and everything would be funded from the treasury, a money printing machine that would feed itself and keep growing into a monster money machine. Global domination.
After Evan left, DCG spent years scratching their head trying to build a foundation. They tried this several times, over the years abandoning and rebuilding. After a few years they decided what they wanted could be generalized resulting in the current stack that can not efficiently be run by just a few thousands nodes that the network already has in place.
The comparison with Ericsson is spot on. Ironically, Erlang, explicitly built (largely) by Ericsson to massively scale network programming. What can we say about competing programming languages that won market share despite their shortcomings?
One of the benefits cited for Platform is the result set proofs, that the returned data is actually complete. What is the killer app for this feature? I suspect the truth is, the growing toolsets for generalized ZKPs is fast outpacing what Platform is doing without the need for a very small federated network (HPMNs).
Not to mention the content filtering coming to Platform, required because data privacy was never considered essential.
The coming timeline looks something like this:
1. Establish 4K HPMNs.
2. Remove 1K MNs because 4K HPMNs do everything anyway.
3. Establish 10K HPMNs because that was always the magic number.
4. Move completely to Proof of Stake, HPMNs being the largest controlling share holders.
5. To get in bed with financial institutions, HPMNs will voluntarily filter Platform content and in the process overcompensate to please their masters.
6. Game over.
The Large Hadron Collider, which was sold and moved to China in the year 2027 was able to send the info back via the Quantum Interchain Wormhole.
I think i remember the days when Evan and i think even amanda_b_johnson talked about the wallet with username / picture and how it would be very simple to use. That would be the killer app for making Dash truly useful for everyday user or your grandma.
I keep going back to that idea! Did we really need to build a monster platform + adding HPMN for that usecase?
And yes ZK has evolved allot and it would be better to re-use allot of existing toolkit then to re-invent the wheel.
But anyway now that 4k is voted i assume its to late to stop the machine.
Sadly your 1-6 scenario dont look very far fetched. When you start to centralize it will just grow into one direction...
I am not sure why are you writting such crap then. This doesn’t do anything positive but pushes people away instead.
Proper wallets with a friendly user interface was always the goal, ZKP are dangerous in the long term when it comes to getting cracked, it bye bye to the whole network and its history, that simply the trade-off of of having a oppaque blockchain. Data contracts are something totally different, the point your making is so stupid it brins into question everything you said up to this point even do quite allot makes sense.
@Adding1kDash this topic is about Platform not circulating supply. You are confusing how ZKPs are applied.
There is no question if ZKPs work, the math is not disputed. The application and implementation is very important. This means, in an economy where you need to prove that no extra coins were mined, then yes, the void between opaque and random strings has not been sufficiently reconciled (though there has been substantial progress). This is exactly why I always say people need to hold both types of assets because of this lack of reconciliation.
Having said that - and a little off-topic - there are mechanisms to keep the circulating supply in check, though the methods are not the same as transparent chains.
In any event, you will notice my comment was highlighted to mention use cases. There are several projects doing what Platform does. Take a look at ProvenDB. Of course, it won't meet Sam's standards but this is still about use cases and killer apps.
There is no question if ZKPs work, the math is not disputed. The application and implementation is very important. This means, in an economy where you need to prove that no extra coins were mined, then yes, the void between opaque and random strings has not been sufficiently reconciled (though there has been substantial progress). This is exactly why I always say people need to hold both types of assets because of this lack of reconciliation.
Having said that - and a little off-topic - there are mechanisms to keep the circulating supply in check, though the methods are not the same as transparent chains.
In any event, you will notice my comment was highlighted to mention use cases. There are several projects doing what Platform does. Take a look at ProvenDB. Of course, it won't meet Sam's standards but this is still about use cases and killer apps.
I was actually responding how your are confusing how ZKP's are apply, but appearently you realized that datasize storage requirements are different than privacy.
We can debate the topic all the but I will stand with the following facts
1) almost all code ever made had some mistakes in it, many unknow unknows including backdoors, and later to invented ways to abuse/miss-use software.
2)If the blockchain is transparant you will always an instantly see abuse/hacks/attacks that make changes in the blockchain, there is an added risk for opaque blockchain no matter how clever the protections systems are in place.
How large are those risks ? well nobody can give you the numbers with 100% certainty. Which means a risk even well below 1% could bring in hyper inflation and complete destruction of a coins value, which is acceptable risk, however this is not for crypto as currency. Centralisation such as Sam will now be adding Dash platform is also totally unacceptable, it's very sad to see this happen as it means dash will likely be losing it nr1 spot for crypto as currency in the coming time.
I know and explained all this but again you are talking about ZKPs in the context of money creation and I am not. ZKPs doesn't only apply to blockchain money. Re-read what I said, this is a discussion about Platform.
But if you want to talk about ZKPs in the context of money then sure I am happy to advocate for both sides because they both have unique qualities. Just a couple of years ago those qualities were mutually exclusive but I do believe that void is less now.
@Adding1kDash perhaps to understand better, the EU is proposing to use ZKPs for personal identities without resorting to commercial providers:
cointelegraph.com
I suppose they could use Platform instead but I'm thinking it's unlikely... would be huge if they did though!
European Union discusses using zero-knowledge proofs for digital IDs
EU citizens would be granted full control of their data, with an option to decide what information to share and with whom.
cointelegraph.com
I suppose they could use Platform instead but I'm thinking it's unlikely... would be huge if they did though!
Looks like DCG have released v19.0.0 RC1 on the develop side of Dashpay Github (see : https://github.com/dashpay/dash/commits/v19.0.0-rc.1)
Hopefully it will not take 11 additional release candidates, like it did with v18.0.0 on Testnet.
This somewhat speedy v19.0.0 RC1 for Testnet does look promising (i did not expect it this soon), hopefully it will soon be followed by a release to Dash Mainnet.
DCG also created a pull request for v20.0.0 on Github (see : https://github.com/dashpay/dash/pull/5215)
So on the DCG Core team side, things are shaping up nicely at the looks of it (with regards to Dash Core v19 and v20). Hopefully the same goes for the DCG Platform team, we will learn more about that with the next DCG Core and Platform development update (tomorrow?).
According to the recently updated Dash Roadmap :
Dash Core v19 for Mainnet : Q1-2023 (it will be interesting to see if DCG can keep to this ETA).
Dash Platform RC1 for Testnet : May 2023.
Dash Core v20 for Mainnet : June 2023
Dash Platform v1.0 Roll Out for Mainnet : June 2023
Dash Platform Activation for Mainnet : July 2023
DashPay wallet dApp launch for Mainnet : Aug 2023
(see : https://www.dash.org/roadmap/)
Hopefully it will not take 11 additional release candidates, like it did with v18.0.0 on Testnet.
This somewhat speedy v19.0.0 RC1 for Testnet does look promising (i did not expect it this soon), hopefully it will soon be followed by a release to Dash Mainnet.
DCG also created a pull request for v20.0.0 on Github (see : https://github.com/dashpay/dash/pull/5215)
So on the DCG Core team side, things are shaping up nicely at the looks of it (with regards to Dash Core v19 and v20). Hopefully the same goes for the DCG Platform team, we will learn more about that with the next DCG Core and Platform development update (tomorrow?).
According to the recently updated Dash Roadmap :
Dash Core v19 for Mainnet : Q1-2023 (it will be interesting to see if DCG can keep to this ETA).
Dash Platform RC1 for Testnet : May 2023.
Dash Core v20 for Mainnet : June 2023
Dash Platform v1.0 Roll Out for Mainnet : June 2023
Dash Platform Activation for Mainnet : July 2023
DashPay wallet dApp launch for Mainnet : Aug 2023
(see : https://www.dash.org/roadmap/)
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