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Rebranding Followup

Discussion in 'Official Announcements' started by eduffield, Mar 10, 2015.

  1. souptacular

    souptacular Well-known Member
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    Tao, my main issue is that you are very quick to push PR for DASH before it is OFFICIAL. This isn't necessarily about whether DASH is a good name, it is about timing. I would hate to see you jump the gun on PR for a name that may not be. There would be pushback from those outside the community and make it seem like we name change all the time. I know you have control over many aspects of the Darkcoin PR so I just want to make sure you aren't jumping the gun. Sometimes your enthusiasm gives off that feeling.
     
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  2. aaxx1503

    aaxx1503 Active Member

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    You see what you want to see and you reply to what you want to reply.
     
  3. souptacular

    souptacular Well-known Member
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    So I read through some more discussion on the events around the name change and updated my initial post on this topic above. Here is my edit:

    I found a post on BTC that clears up some of my misconceptions about the decisions made.

    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg10726461#msg10726461

    I still feel like this could have been done better and it seems that some of the foundation are admitting that and apologizing. As much as I'd love a full explanation etc. I know there are more important things afoot for the community that Evan and the foundation are dealing with and I will trust they are making wise decisions. I still hold that more in the community should have been consulted, especially vertoe. Why vertoe? Because he/she put an incredible amount of time and energy into so many aspects of this project and his/her departure could have been prevented by proper communication and asking for input. Evan admitted he did not ask vertoe for his/her opinion because "it was already public."

    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg10726739#msg10726739

    That is not a good enough reason to not include one of the most active devs on the team in the discussion.
     
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  4. eltito

    eltito Active Member

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    In our last meeting, I floated a similar idea to the other Foundation board members. The idea would be to rebrand InstantX to Dash for the purpose of name association, then later on drop Darkcoin and fully tranaition to Dash. There are good arguments against this, however. It may cause confusion, for one thing, and dragging out the process may make the transition more painful in the future as brand awareness increases.
     
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  5. spatula

    spatula Well-known Member
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    Agreed. When it is time to make the change, rip the bandaid off all at once.
     
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  6. g8F98FF3gjafogj4

    g8F98FF3gjafogj4 Well-known Member
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    Eltito man what have you been up to? I haven't seen your name in like 6 months. Are you envolved with the foundation board? Do you mind explaining your roll? I don't want to come off rude I am truly curious. I am realizing I do not understand how the foundation works. Does being a member mean much?

    * Is it sort of a tool to be able to make legal purchases etc?
     
    #216 g8F98FF3gjafogj4, Mar 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2015
  7. bobbyLiberty

    bobbyLiberty New Member

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    PURE

    FLEX

    BLUR
     
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  8. eltito

    eltito Active Member

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    I've been getting to know and adjusting to life with my new son :). I'm not sure my mind would have survived both that and frequent exposure to the world of crypto-currencies intact...

    I am one of the five members of the Foundation board, yes. I currently serve as Secretary. That has been my primary involvement with the coin for the past few months. My personal life is finally returning to a modicum of normalcy and predictability, so I hope to be around more.
     
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  9. g8F98FF3gjafogj4

    g8F98FF3gjafogj4 Well-known Member
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    Congratulations! I do remember hearing of the the baby now, good to see you man
     
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  10. eltito

    eltito Active Member

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    Basically, yes. It is a way to build structure around the coin in ways that may be difficult for an individual or disparate group to do. It allows us to coordinate fundraising and expenditure, advocate and/or lobby in the interests of the coin (or crypto in general) in an official manner, facilitate strategic planning and the formation of strategic vision for the coin moving forward, facilitate communication with appropriate entities or individuals where appropriate, among other things. The board is currently structured to include representation from several areas - myself from the community, Fernando as a non-US member and attorney in the EU, Evan from the technology and development side, Ed and Harold from a business/investment and US legal standpoint, respectively.
     
  11. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Thank you very much for that constructive criticism. I wasn't aware that my efforts gave off this impression. I never claimed anywhere that it was a done deal however. I've read all of the same things you have. I know that it's still being decided.

    But here's the thing, and this one is not directed at you in particular:

    I'm very supportive of this name since Day 1 for this reason: The only thing that the "No" camp can come up with is that it sucks, it's lame, or it's not edgy enough. The "Yes" camp has named numerous reasons why its a good fit, all constructive.

    I'm experimenting with this name, (again, NOWHERE did I say it was a done deal), what's the harm in that?

    My opinion matters too, and I am also passing on feedback from my contacts outside of the community on Twitter, which I currently can't stay on top of... :D

    Cheers All!

    Tao.
     
  12. souptacular

    souptacular Well-known Member
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    I'm glad we can have a mature discussion Tao :) I appreciate your efforts spreading Darkcoin.

    You said that "NOWHERE did I say it was a done deal". This is true, however, on your Twitter you have started using #DASH and have tweets such as,

    "Total number of #DASH Masternodes: 2311. Big investors know that a name change is the right choice, and are going nowhere. #Darkcoin"

    Since you are a prominent voice on Twitter and a representative of Darkcoin this can come across as a done deal and people are starting to get confused. I know this because you re-tweeted cryptoball's tweet where they asked if the name change is decided.

    This is not simply experimenting with the name and the "harm" from this is public confusion and, worse yet, a lot of backpedaling if we decide not to go with DASH. If we don't go with DASH, people will start assuming we are on our 3rd name change in a 1 year period, which does not indicate stability. In short, you say DASH is not a done deal, but your actions seem to suggest otherwise (even if those actions aren't meant to intentionally lead people to believe it is an official change). That is my main concern, just be mindful of your tweets please :)
     
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  13. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Sure thing. Respect.
     
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  14. boblq

    boblq New Member

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    DarthFraktal said:
    This is not reason enough to give up the name...
    ...my car is dark, t-shirt and pants also!
    Of course it is only a proposal,
    Logo remains the same!
    Dawn is a consequence of the darkness. It is as if going out to the people.
    Provides knowledge, gives Technologies..
    The DAWN has a large field for marketing...
    But I do not know how it would sound in English in everyday speech.
    English is not my native language.
    ===================================================================

    So far I have stayed out of this, but I have read the entire thread. I have also devoted some serious energy to promoting Darkcoin at http://www.meetup.com/Makati-Digital-Currency-Meetup/ where I made a Presentation called Darkcoin in Contex comparing Darcoin and Bitcoin last Feb 28. Some billed it as the first ever presentation from the Darcoin Ambassador Group, which tongfa, daniel-minotaur with help from some others have organized. We plan another Darkcoin presentation the last Saturday of this month. The presntation, which is a work in progress, may be reviewed here. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ztk0jagePkzvi6RLQW9Flf0bdS50gVZsN1QPFbUK4Ok/edit?usp=sharing

    Rebranding and changing the name is a good idea. Darkcoin just generates endless negatives and wastes everyone's time dealing with issues most of us consider irrelevant. "Isn't that the criminal coin?" Sign, "No for the ten thousandth time ..."

    DASH does nothing for me at all. DASH also invites confusion with the existing Dashcoin.
    http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dashcoin/
    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678232.0
    http://www.reddit.com/r/Dashcoin/
    https://github.com/dashcoin
    about which I know nothing else and have no opinion.

    I like DAWN. So some soap is named dawn, so what? I was raised with "Cleanliness is next to Godliness." Soap is not so bad.

    DAWN is beautiful and promising. A new day awaits those who greet the DAWN, which follows the Dark naturally.

    So DarthFraktal do not give up the fight.

    A new day is DAWNing.

    Maybe ;)

    BobLQ
     
  15. alex-ru

    alex-ru Grizzled Member
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    IMHO:

    The "problem" with Tao is - he is about the only one doing it (tungfa is making PR in a professional way - but it's a bit different story). We must have hundreds of "Tao"-s with hundreds unofficial twitters about DASH - with different points of view, styles of communicating and so on. Why permanently criticize him instead of starting your own "correct" alternative unofficial twitter? It will be much better.

    I agree, a bit unprofessional, but... WE are not professional "corporation" yet. We just haven't got proper "HR Manager". Do you want doing this job? :) Or you wish Evan do it instead of coding, Fernando instead of ... and so on? The more DASH team is growing - the more we need proper "HR Manager" to organize "team building", support "offended developers", "offended PR guys" and so on :sad:.

    We must understand that Evan, Fernando, Tao, ... in current situation need our support no less than vertoe.

    This is very important stage with guaranteed problems - so most of other coin's developers just avoid it - to feel comfortable (and doing nothing needed but unpleasant). This is great and we have to support Evan and team. They really need it!!!

    I think it is a good type of testing - don't rename officially - but start using it unofficially and monitor feelings. I feel the more I use "DASH" the more I like it (some other guys mentioned the same here).
    Any new brand (apple - what a joke! :eek:) is accumulating his power during a long period.
     
    #225 alex-ru, Mar 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2015
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  16. TanteStefana

    TanteStefana Grizzled Member
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    I seriously don't think it's a matter of how long it will take to go mainstream but if we can even give ourselves the chance of going mainstream. It's been crystal clear that the outside world won't touch "dark" with a 100 foot pole. Why even argue anymore. Evan isn't doing this to be cool, he is doing this to be relevant. If we stop him from being relevant by insisting on a "cool" name (and I don't think any cool name will go mainstream, because cool needs edginess, and edginess means controversy). So if all this work isn't going to go anywhere, why should Evan and the rest of the developers even continue? For "dark markets" sake? Evan was never into that. He doesn't care about the dark markets (neither do I, actually) He wants to bring something useful and real to the world, the whole world.

    DASH is bland compared to Darkcoin, but it makes sense (digital cash & fast as well as safe). I haven't heard any other idea that is better, and I don't think there is anything better. Still, it's not set in stone yet, and a large collection of ideas ought to be assembled for review by the foundation. I say the foundation because it's obvious that the community is far too emotional to make good decisions.
     
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  17. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member

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    Alex-Ru, you have successfully entered my brain, picked apart my thoughts on this matter, and displayed them on this page for everyone to see. Cheers!
     
  18. dark-sailor

    dark-sailor Member

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    Hi all

    I Think digital cash is a good name sort of grown on me and we should respect Evans and the devs decision they have put a lot of work into this coin I think this coin is going places. I also like the name Bitcash which was mentioned in this post sort of ties tightly with Bitcoin.

    Just my input
     
  19. Recursive

    Recursive New Member

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    Digitally Rendered Karat

    A pure digital currency of the future.
     
    #229 Recursive, Mar 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2015
  20. HowlingMad

    HowlingMad Member

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    Hello all, I have been thinking about this for a couple of days, trying to ignore the hysteria, etc...

    Rebranded coin - (Dash, dork, whatever) equals regulation, taxes, attorneys, etc... leads to larger community and more profits.
    Existing coin - (Darkcoin) equals no regulation, etc... smaller community but still with some nice profit.

    Just my two cents here: Just as a computer network handles multiple protocols (voice, video, text, email) why does the MN network have to be restricted to one protocol or one coin in this case? Two protocol numbers for two blocks chains.

    As I see it the payment system (Dash, dork, whatever) will collect fees for transmission but will there really be block mining? So how are fees going to be distributed among the MN? Long term adoption of this system will require STABILITY! No forking chains, etc...otherwise customers will just curse it. Bad press in this instance is a quick and painful death. The code base would need to be locked down and not public.

    Additionally, with a payment system you would not need to keep the chain forever. Once the payments are acknowledged by both parties, the data is worthless, and can be pruned. The blockchain for a commercially viable product would be orders of magnitude in size. You would need to keep some data for disagreements, etc.

    Darkcoin continues to be the test bed, innovator and a standalone product. MN are paid for mining, etc just as it exists plus whatever for the payment transactions. New ideas/technology are rolled into the payment system as needed/desired.

    The programming should be fairly straightforward:
    if protocol = 11111
    Payment system​
    else if protocol = 70705
    Darkcoin coding

    (you cannot outdent your typing once the right side scrollbar becomes active)

    My two cents.
     
  21. phec

    phec New Member

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    ITS
    Instant Transaction System
     
  22. yidakee

    yidakee Well-known Member
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    This is a brilliant post.

    We are certainly not a professional corporation. Hopefully we will NEVER be! (the only part I disagree with you) - maybe a professionally organised decentralised enterprise at best... Hopefully third-parties ARE and use our code as protocol though.

    Its the Foundation's job to "do this", and right now the Foundation is a baby still needing breast feeding. Its too young to even say "ma-ma"... Its basically all still on Evan's shoulder. If we had more guys on board, I'm sure LOTS more could be done in a more professional manner.

    Agreed, not his finest hour, but instead of complaining lets move ahead. I'm just waiting and ready for whatever comes next.
     
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  23. f2000

    f2000 Member

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    I thought we could do better, but after messing around DASH has started to grow on me.

    [​IMG]

    Morse code of the left,

    D -..
    A .-
    S ...
    H ....

    I had a few others, but this was prob my fav. Not sure about the morse code, but I liked the idea of dashdotproduct

    Dash.IX
    Dash.DS etc etc
     
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  24. jchpaik

    jchpaik New Member

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    Definitely NO.

    It is not about how cool name we come up with. It is not about how we are going to make Darkcoin sounds 'not dark.' and it is definitely not about 'Now is the time to change' stuff.
    I am not sure how many marketing/branding experts are in Darkcointalk. But If there are, they would definitely believe that it is a bad idea.

    First, there should be an extremely significant reason for rebranding, like FAILURE. You do not rebrand your company just because it sounds bad for certain people. Rebranding is to give up the identity and spirit and to transform the entire racking ship to a new small boat so that it can start again. (Dark is a rocket getting ready to the moon, not a racking ship). Darkcoin has no problem whatsoever. Number of masternodes are increasing, more users are participating, more markets/exchanges are accepting, more press releases are coming (guardian). The network is accumulated exponentially. There is no statistical evidence that Darkcoin is not doing good because of the name. There is no evidence that Darkcoin will do better if the name changes.

    Second, rebranding requires consumer recognition. You do not rebrand your company that people have no idea its existence. You all think Dark is so famous that everybody will know once rebranding news are released? Some few crypto-geeks who are interested in anonymity will certainly know when the name changes. But Dark is still in infancy, in development. There is so much bigger market waiting for us. And for the bigger market, we need to accumulate the history and network effect we have been for those markets. And if you want to say "let's change it before it's too late," please don't.

    Third, rebranding is not easy as we think. There are thousands of things to be changed, such as hundreds of press releases and articles, white papers, wikipedia, website domains, search engine results, and names (Darkcoin, Darksend, Dark gravity well, etc). If you studied SEO (Search Engine Optimization), you know how hard to rename things and be successful.

    Fourth. If you pay an agency to do rebranding, it will be disaster. Darkcoin is just one of many clients that have. Their motivation is money. They don't give a crap about the technology nor understand it. People who deeply understand and love what they are marketing can only do marketing. and plus cryptocurrencies do not need marketing or branding. Strong development and community are the best assets of the technology. Did Bitcoin need marketing or rebranding when Silkroad and Mt.Gox stuff happened? NO! Many people still think Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme and only can be used for drugs and terrorism, but that doesn't mean you need to convince them. Please understand the accelerating diffusion of technology (Maloney’s 16% Rule).

    As a marketer and heavy investor of Darkcoin, I feel very threatened by this proposal.

    Just because crypto currency is a decentralized system. We do not have to make every decisions in democratic, decentralized way. Few professionals know better than the entire community. It's like logo problem. Darkcoin logo was voted by the community. Please try to show the Darkcoin logo to professional designers.
     
  25. DarthFraktal

    DarthFraktal New Member

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    why are you still considering DASH name?!
    DASH name is already taken!


    after reading various reviews I'm not personally convinced that the change of the name is NOT really necessary
     
    #235 DarthFraktal, Mar 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2015
  26. miningpros

    miningpros New Member

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    Its on exchange also already , poloniex
     
  27. GreyGhost

    GreyGhost Well-known Member
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    If "Darkcoin" is such a negative term, as many claim (myself as a no-native speaker can't fully grasp its negativity) why it should be replaced with another non flattery term? Ponder how Tao's dashing to promote DASH everywhere shows "dash" as quite an appropriate term given the meaning of the word:

    dash (v.intr.) To move with haste; rush: dashed into the room; dashed down the hall;
    dash (v.intr.) To strike violently; smash: waves dashing on the rocks.
    dash (v.tr.) To hurl, knock, or thrust with sudden violence: dashed the cup against the wall.
    dash (v.tr.) To remove by striking or wiping: dash tears from one's face, etc., etc., etc.

    I still think we can't seriously talk about re-branding or the name if we're not clear what is the "true nature" of Darkcoin. Evan's original White Paper claims: "Darkcoin is the first privacy centric cryptographic currency based on Satoshi Nakamoto’s Bitcoin," so I wonder is this still the "true nature" of it? If this still stands, we need to consider what to do to further our cryptographic currency's agenda. If not, what is it, our controversial Darkcoin?

    Does InstantX represents its core? It is "just" a great feature, revolutionary in the crypto world but it that does not really solves any of the user's burning needs. (PayPal is instantaneous, most credit and debit card are fast enough that using them does not prevent them from wide use as we see daily in every supermarket across America)
    Does Darksend represents it? It is a crypto solution that defends our right to privately conduct transactions without prying eyes of all these spying on our every move.

    I still strongly believe that the Foundation's overly-lawyerly approach will NOT protect Darkcoin from the future clashes with the sycophant mass media once they start defending their Overlords (the system ruled by the Financial Crime Cartel) from the danger Darkcoin might pose. Talk about adoption problems is a thinly veiled, most likely not intentional, attempt to mask the real issue, would Darkcoin, Bitcoin and alt-currencies in general be allowed to co-exist with the fiat money system at all? Even bitcoin is hardly accepted so why would this be a problem in this phase of Darkcoin's development. Let them come to you approach might work in this case. Why to alienate 1% of 0.1% of the world's population willing to fight for privacy and property rights in a vain hope that compromise will open the doors for 99% which would never be the case. (read Bitcoin: Technical Background and Data Analysis by the Finance and Economics Discussion Series Divisions of Research & Statistics and Monetary Affairs Federal Reserve Board, Washington, D.C. should you wish to know more)

    So we need to define our defense first because it is obvious the Foundation wants to act per-emtpively. No saintly name will help us, trust me on this, I know how does it feel to be attacked by the Government. (not this one, granted) If Darkcoin or Saintcoin or Taocoin is a "currency" we might encounter a real problem: "a central bank has a monopoly right to issue of coins and banknotes." Now, if we - as the I.R.S. does - define Darkcoin as PROPERTY, we have a right to our property.
    "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)[1] is a declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948 at the Palais de Chaillot, Paris [2], in its Aritcle 17. Proclaims:

    n (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others;
    n (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.


    I believe that crypto-currencies are properties, as personal use assets, so transactions so transactions with Darkcoins, Bitcoins or any other crypto-currency is akin to barter arrangements. As such, crypto-currencies also have similar tax purposes. (see The Australian Taxation Office statement or the IRS Virtual Currency Guidance stating the “virtual currency is treated as property for U.S. Federal Tax Purposes.” In Germany, the Bitcoin is "private money" which can be used in "multilateral clearing circles", therefore, our right to mine the cryptocurrency [1], to exchange it for other assets, including for the fiat money issued by a governmental or quasi-governmental central banks, is our undeniable human right.

    We need to re-difane our STANCE regarding Darkcoin's core message before embarking on bickering with Tao and his over-zelous promotion of that empty name as it has been proposed.



    [1] Further info on “mining” could be found at http://www.coindesk.com/information/how-bitcoin-mining-works/.

    [1]http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/;

    [2] In 1948 the UHDR has been adopted by 48 countries including Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Philippines, Siam (Thailand), Sweden, Syria, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela;
     
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  28. moli

    moli Grizzled Member

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    So you are saying that lying and giving false information is good for this coin?

    And fernando, I am puzzled that you seem to agree to this.
     
  29. balu

    balu Well-known Member
    Dash Core Team Foundation Member Dash Support Group

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    Tao was acting unprofessionally imho as well. But with good intentions. Someone in this thread highlighted the mistakes, and I hope he will take this information into consideration.

    To hype something is one thing. To lie, or spread half-truths is something completely different. Drk on btc-e and #dash tweets are prime examples.

    I have nothing against Tao, but he must act with responsibility. Since many think of the tweet managed by him as quasi official, he cannot just write whatever he wants.

    I was hesitant including his twitter feed in the news page I was creating as many of his posts were totally unpofessional.

    And I dunno how to emphasize, but seriously I mean no offense Tao. Keep on doing what you are doing, as it is serving the community. Just know that as the coin grows along with the community, acting irresponsibly can have devastating consequences (unlike when you had 10 followers).
     
  30. alex-ru

    alex-ru Grizzled Member
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    Sorry my bad English doesn't afford me to analyze properly where is "lying and false information".

    But as I understand you are attempting to quarrel the community? Every days "crypto-note" trolls trying to embroil DRK-community with really "lying and false information" - but until we are strong community - this is not a problem.

    We can't control and fix all information about DRK - but we (everyone of us) can produce our massive "good information".
     
    #240 alex-ru, Mar 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2015