Proposal for Testnet Contributors Fund

qwizzie

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Aug 6, 2014
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Thanks for putting this proposal together Moli, if not for anything else it provides a great case study
about budget proposals and how our community interacts with them.

I would advice you to put the link to your google spreadsheet in your first post as later posts / pages often seem
to be overlooked.

With regards to how i'm voting on this budget proposal, i havent decided yet as this whole budget proposal came
rather unexspectingly so i will need some time to think it over.
 
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buster

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How about this: someone make ONE time payment proposal to testers when new major version is officially released?
I like that idea. Maybe it would be wise for people who want to propose a budget to make an unofficial-proposal before the official-proposal. People can hash out some issues which the proposer can take into consideration, then we get something concrete and make an official proposal. I'm sure there was discussion that took place about this proposal before it was posted but maybe an entire thread and a few days could have helped. Discussion about the proposals is key and it would also help save time voting on proposals that are similar with slight differences. (e.g. if this proposal is re-proposed and we have to vote on it again).

We can use the current proposal as an example. Lets assume Moli made a post 2-3 days ago letting us know she was going to make this proposal. Lets assume we spent 3 days discussing all the things we have discussed since she made the proposal. Moli could refine her proposal to her liking and then make it official if she is satisfied with the discussion. She could even come to the realization that the proposal might not be a good idea.

All I'm saying is it might help you get your proposal passed if you give the community an unofficial proposal and a few days to discuss it.

*edit some typos and added some stuff to last sentence.
 

Minotaur

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Perfect again!

IMHO it is not a matter of (third party) "quality assurance". Actually it is a matter of coherency: if the system brings rules for the creation of budget proposals, as long as someone submits a proposal by these rules, it is the network that will judge the quality of the proposal.

If there are tips, donatons, charities and volunteers, great, they are always welcome. But now the community must learn to walk the steps we have decided to take. That is the consistent decision. We are at the beginning. Still learning how to do it. But in the long run it we will have great results.
Agreed, in the end the system is designed to resolve controversy and help us make decisions when there are different opinions. We are all still learning, it does require a certain maturity and can be taxing to the spirit doing this transition into the budget system and debating proposals.

We should not underestimate the human component, specially when we are interacting over online forums, it can be colder. So I wish the best to all of us that we can remain a friendly and welcoming community even when we now have to disagree sometimes. Cheers.
 

bertlebbert

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Jul 17, 2014
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Well, this has bee an interesting exercise. Now we just wait for the more polished (fait accompli) proposal to be presented.
 

moli

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Full disclosure I did not support the current testnet budget proposal, because I am looking forward to support the revised version of a testnet proposal in the line of what I described above on the next vote.

I felt the amount was arbitrary, basically the whole amount that was left, in my personal opinion we should assign the budget to specific expenses we need, not really look to spend everything available each month. I don't subscribe to the idea that un-allocated budget means "burned" coins, I feel our emission now includes a dynamic budget component that varies each month and can be up to 10% but there is nothing wrong for it to be less than that.

On the other hand, we should remember that the network give us tokens, the buying power of those tokens depends on the exchange rate and demand. We need to respect the market and be conservative with our spending, at the beginning we should prioritize expenses that can bring more users and raise demand. This in turn can support the price and give us more buying power. When we have more buying power we can be less conservative. We should also emphasize getting OTC trades for any exchange required.

Having said this, I want to thank everyone that helps with testing. To be honest I felt awkward not supporting the proposal because I felt we needed more time and it was a bit rushed I hope I did not offend anyone. I am looking forward to a revised version of this project.
Hi Minotaur,

You said to me once on slack that I could propose a budget to tip people who participate on DT forums ... How can this go about now that even this proposal does not get support from you and others? I know i should have had a discussion first on the forum to get feedback from everyone and should have prepared it better before submitting it, but what i see is if i don't get a big support from the devs and big holders that will never go through. How can this ever be "decentralized" ?
 

AjM

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Jun 23, 2014
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Maybe all this is going to be easier when the dedicated budget website is done.
 
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bertlebbert

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Jul 17, 2014
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Hi Minotaur,

You said to me once on slack that I could propose a budget to tip people who participate on DT forums ... How can this go about now that even this proposal does not get support from you and others? I know i should have had a discussion first on the forum to get feedback from everyone and should have prepared it better before submitting it, but what i see is if i don't get a big support from the devs and big holders that will never go through. How can this ever be "decentralized" ?
Short answer... :what:
 

Minotaur

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Hi Minotaur,

You said to me once on slack that I could propose a budget to tip people who participate on DT forums ... How can this go about now that even this proposal does not get support from you and others? I know i should have had a discussion first on the forum to get feedback from everyone and should have prepared it better before submitting it, but what i see is if i don't get a big support from the devs and big holders that will never go through. How can this ever be "decentralized" ?

The idea of creating a budget proposal for testnet is a good idea that will get support from everyone when it is ready. I understand the reason why it was done so quickly was to include it on this same vote that was about to expire. People are not saying no to a testnet initiative I guess some of us, just want to work on it a bit more and create a revised version before moving forward.

I gave you my recommendations on a previous post a few moments ago and also explained my reasons, which I feel are valid. I am looking forward to a revised version of the proposal. The system seems to be working as several different people on this thread expressed some valid concerns that can be incorporated into a revised proposal and submitted again.

If we for example presented a one time 100 DASH tip jar to support forum activity and explained some contests we want to do to incentivize new posters, I think we could get the support we would need. On the other hand if we assigned too much coins to something like that it would probably be rejected and the voters would have good reasons.

Having said that, I respect you because you are an assertive person and you always speak your mind. That is why I owe you my honest opinion. I think a test-net proposal will pass soon by making some adjustments, it was just the first iteration and was done quickly now we have a lot of feedback to work with.
 

moli

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The idea of creating a budget proposal for testnet is a good idea that will get support from everyone when it is ready. I understand the reason why it was done so quickly was to include it on this same vote that was about to expire. People are not saying no to a testnet initiative I guess some of us, just want to work on it a bit more and create a revised version before moving forward.

I gave you my recommendations on a previous post a few moments ago and also explained my reasons, which I feel are valid. I am looking forward to a revised version of the proposal. The system seems to be working as several different people on this thread expressed some valid concerns that can be incorporated into a revised proposal and submitted again.

If we for example presented a one time 100 DASH tip jar to support forum activity and explained some contests we want to do to incentivize new posters, I think we could get the support we would need. On the other hand if we assigned too much coins to something like that it would probably be rejected and the voters would have good reasons.

Having said that, I respect you because you are an assertive person and you always speak your mind. That is why I owe you my honest opinion. I think a test-net proposal will pass soon by making some adjustments, it was just the first iteration and was done quickly now we have a lot of feedback to work with.
Thank you for your honest opinions. :)
 
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bertlebbert

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Short answer... :what:
Longer answer... Decentralization isn't the be all end all so many seem to be striving for - we need some centralization. Someone has to choose a direction for Dash and make decisions on how to stay on that path. In our case Evan is that someone, and he seems to be doing a pretty good job. Anyone thinks not, they can sell their coins and move on.
moli, just think if you had to get agreement from 4 or 5 others before submitting your proposal, you'd probably just stay stuck in the discussion stage.
 
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darkzero

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Jun 6, 2014
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I didn't read all the proposal but I'd like to add some ideas about testnet that i had recently.
To increase the user base why not hosting something like a Dash Showcase Festival?
Let me explain, in the week when Dash is born we could host for 7 days something like 2 events a days, targeted to audience, to showcase the features of Dash during live sessions in testnet.
So, users could learn the features by using a real environment and see how it works, while the dev team can gather suggestions and ideas. Imagine showing live to new users on their testnet wallet InstantX and so on..
A similar session can be held for merchants and the dev team would benefit and possibly understand all about what they really need.
Think about sponsors for the event or special offers made by current merchants or whatever.
If it's something useful i would participate and put up few test masternodes just for the event or if needed keep them up a little longer and if such a commitment is compensated the better.
 
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qwizzie

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Congratulations, it looks like your budget proposal has been established and will be included for payout with next super-block (block 332320)

https://dashninja.pl/budgets.html



It will be interesting to see if this budget proposal will still be established in the super-block after that first super-block (in other words : the second super-block) or that
another budget proposal will have surpassed it by then .... interesting times ahead.
 
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TaoOfSatoshi

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Congratulations, it looks like your budget proposal has been established and will be included for payout with next super-block (block 332320)

https://dashninja.pl/budgets.html



It will be interesting to see if this budget proposal will still be established in the super-block after that first super-block (in other words : the second super-block) or that
another budget proposal will have surpassed it by then .... interesting times ahead.
This is only the beginning.

We are going to have proposals up the wazoo all the time, and are going to have some lively debates!

But in the end, only the best proposals will win the votes from around the globe, and benefit Dash.
 

Sub-Ether

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So the 51% majority vote is decided on the votes ratio and not the total ratio then, else all 4 would have failed ?
 
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raganius

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So the 51% majority vote is decided on the votes ratio and not the total ratio then, else all 4 would have failed ?
Yes. As I understood it, the DASH budget proposals voting procedure ignores abstentions (instead of considering it as "nays"). There is no minimum threshold of votes for approval, as it seems. It makes it easier to pass a proposal, but it also gives less "stability" in it's maintenance/continuity over time. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

It's important that these rules are clearly known by the community. And it is also necessary that such rules (whichever rules are adopted) remain the same in each and every votings, if we want the voting process to be fair/honest: The voting rules and procedures must always precede all actual votings. Ad hoc rules are never a good idea.
 
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qwizzie

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So the 51% majority vote is decided on the votes ratio and not the total ratio then, else all 4 would have failed ?
Not totally sure but i think it works like this (ref https://dashninja.pl/budgets.html)

The budget proposals will need the following :

1 : 10% or more of Total Ratio
2 : The budget amount needs to be unallocated in the Total Remaining Payment for the super-block

So theoratically someone could still setup a budget proposal for 0.8 Dash (as thats still unallocated for coming super-block) and with 10% or more Total Ratio
it will get included as well.

If however the budget amount is already allocated for next super-block then the budgets will have to battle over supremacy, the highest percentage of total ratio
budget proposals will then win (or keep) a slot in the super-block

So the next budget proposal for the second super-block will most likely be battling with all 4 budget proposals if it succeeds at getting 10% of total ratio as there is now virtually no free to allocate budget left with all 4 budget proposals together.

edit : scrap that last part, Evan's reimbursement is a 1 time thing so that amount will get free to allocate for second super-block
 
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alex-ru

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Where is it possible to read complete Voting rules? Does anybody have a link? Thanks!
 
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alex-ru

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qwizzie

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As moli pointed out : https://dashtalk.org/threads/v12-testing-thread.5484/

After this anyone can vote on the proposals. The network will use the “Finalized Budget” logic automatically to consolidate the proposals into one object that will allow them to be paid at the end of the month. You can see these with “mnfinalbudget show”. For a proposal to make it into the finalized budget, it will require 10% of the masternode votes on mainnet. This should help combat masternode voting apathy, if masternodes don’t want something with that little support to be paid, they’ll have to vote on a competing proposal.


Budgets are paid each 50 blocks on testnet/regtest to allow us to make lots of changes and have many pay periods to test with. On mainnet it will be every 16616 blocks.
edit : i do think mnfinalbudget got replaced with mnbudget projection in the end.
 
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alex-ru

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I don't understand...

Let's say somebody offered "bad proposal", OK.

It gets 1% of "Yes" and 9-99% of "No" (so more than 10% altogether - so it is active). And there is no other "good" competing proposals...
So... this "bad" proposal will be funded with current voting logic? :confused:
 
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elbereth

Active Member
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dashninja.pl
Dash Address
XkfkHqMnhvQovo7kXQjvnNiFnQhRNZYCsz
Please note Dash Ninja Budgets page considers that if a budget isEstablished is at true it means it will be paid on next super-block.
This seems to not be the case so I will need to change it... First I need a complete explanation of how it works. It is just so unclear for me atm...
 

raganius

cryptoPag.com
Foundation Member
Masternode Owner/Operator
Considering:

Voting status:
Proposal:core-team Yes: 1475 No: 8
Proposal:public-awareness Yes: 1440 No: 38
Proposal:compensate-testers Yes: 176 No: 139
Proposal:reimbursement Yes: 1452 No: 13

So, now, in order that a new proposal (say, of 1,000 DASH) be approved today it would need at least 177 "yes" (replacing, thus, compensate-test proposal)?

Now, lets say, if today 1453 masternodes decide to vote "no" for reimbursement: is it eliminated from the budget, thus its 2,529 DASH slot would be freed?
 
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alex-ru

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Please somebody - explain how exactly "No"s works?

Do "No"s help to cross 10% limit? (This is not a good idea!)
Do "No"s eliminate the number of "Yes"s during proposal's comparison (This is a good idea!)
 
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raganius

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I don't understand...

Let's say somebody offered "bad proposal", OK.

It gets 1% of "Yes" and 9-99% of "No" (so more than 10% altogether - so it is active). And there is no other "good" competing proposals...
So... this "bad" proposal will be funded with current voting logic? :confused:
There's a kind of "checks and balances" here, if we consider that "bad proposals", if approved, will "hurt" DASH. Masternode owners will not want to "hurt" their investment ∴ "Bad proposals" will not be accepted.
 

qwizzie

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Voting No on a budget proposal will get it delisted if enough voters will vote no (so it gets below 10%)
Voting Yes on budget proposal will get it listed if enough voters will vote yes (so it gets 10% or more)

Yes voters can always change their mind and vote No
No voters can always change their mind and vote Yes
 

qwizzie

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according my wallet using mnbudget projection so far only three budget proposals made it :

14:28:02





{
"core-team" : {
"URL" : "goo.gl/V52wZd",
"Hash" : "eac6392cd0d63e4b2ebd3c60da2d3e13137c892cd4cd1a8f3885077ac86b7487",
"BlockStart" : 332320,
"BlockEnd" : 2002228,
"TotalPaymentCount" : 100,
"RemainingPaymentCount" : 100,
"PaymentAddress" : "XtspXMnoGt4RF23CZ7MQQ7NFmkAebMUNME",
"Ratio" : 0.99468085,
"Yeas" : 1479,
"Nays" : 8,
"Abstains" : 0,
"TotalPayment" : 117600.00000000,
"MonthlyPayment" : 1176.00000000,
"Alloted" : 1176.00000000,
"TotalBudgetAlloted" : 1176.00000000,
"IsValid" : true,
"IsValidReason" : "",
"fValid" : true
},
"reimbursement" : {
"URL" : "goo.gl/V52wZd",
"Hash" : "428438998eeb3234b232a3609d2e0f1122049241e5ecad972554ad163772a109",
"BlockStart" : 332320,
"BlockEnd" : 357244,
"TotalPaymentCount" : 1,
"RemainingPaymentCount" : 1,
"PaymentAddress" : "XmxCEosWmtgDLS4BpAS8MnwYSEnsyMLbRF",
"Ratio" : 0.99125168,
"Yeas" : 1456,
"Nays" : 13,
"Abstains" : 0,
"TotalPayment" : 2529.00000000,
"MonthlyPayment" : 2529.00000000,
"Alloted" : 2529.00000000,
"TotalBudgetAlloted" : 3705.00000000,
"IsValid" : true,
"IsValidReason" : "",
"fValid" : true
},
"public-awareness" : {
"URL" : "goo.gl/V52wZd",
"Hash" : "cbafad18687045bb72fae611078fac09c3ec09c8379e357c36901ce84891f189",
"BlockStart" : 332320,
"BlockEnd" : 2002228,
"TotalPaymentCount" : 100,
"RemainingPaymentCount" : 100,
"PaymentAddress" : "XxTqjYd4bpkTA6yP1gmo5maMkPynT6YvbG",
"Ratio" : 0.97464977,
"Yeas" : 1444,
"Nays" : 38,
"Abstains" : 0,
"TotalPayment" : 215600.00000000,
"MonthlyPayment" : 2156.00000000,
"Alloted" : 2156.00000000,
"TotalBudgetAlloted" : 5861.00000000,
"IsValid" : true,
"IsValidReason" : "",
"fValid" : true
}
}


So í'm not totally sure Moli's proposal got into the final budget or not.
 

alex-ru

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So 10% proposal is needed to be active is:
(Number of "Yes" minus number of "No"s) ?

(not only "Yes"? not "Yes+No"?)


And "rating" of every proposal (to compare all of them) is:
(Number of "Yes" minus number of "No"s) ?
 
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