Pre-proposal reduce the proposal fee to 1 dash

GrandMasterDash

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Decred , a once upon times "garbage" coin , has now similar marketcap with Dash.

Is it maybe because of the low proposal fee?
Indeed, it did a 16x a couple of months ago and looks like it might overtake dash. Dash is the better chain so I would see that as a signal to sell decred and buy dash. Saying that, 1000 decred earns more money per month than 1000 dash.

I don't think it's lower fee is the reason for it's success but they do believe their proposal system is more robust than dash's. Decred to me, however, feels a bit too centralized / censored.

OTOH, they do have a massive $111M treasury! https://dcrdata.decred.org/treasury?chart=balance&zoom=ijhhasg0-kmbjr4w0&bin=month

In this context, I'm not sure how anyone can say dash's proposal system is working at it's optimum.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Okay, so now we're down to removing my post because I highlighted decred's treasury system, really? It's all come down to censorship, not liking what you see?
 
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vazaki3

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Some proponents of NO are hiding to more than one individualities, in order to appear as more people. Of course I am aware of this technique of hiding your individuality behind junk proposals. But as long as I respect the right of anonymity, I havent code anything YET in order to reveal this kind of voters. Maybe I will, in the future.....

Have a look. ...... Put "set-your-price-proposals" in the No filter of https://mnowatch.org/the_results_dashd_2021-03-16-00-52-33.uniqueHashVotes.250.html . Among others, also the below appears....

hiding individuality.jpg

It is obvious for anyone that the above 3 individualities that appear in mnowatch are one individual. The technique of junk proposals is used by the owner of the above 3 masternodes in order for him to appear as 3 separated individualities.

This technique will become more popular and will be used more and more, in case the 1 dash proposal fee is accepted. The remedy to this is to allow the MNOs to rate some proposals as junk, and to remove these junk proposals and do not take them into account whenever the individualities are investigated. (@xkcd )
 
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vazaki3

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Okay, so now we're down to removing my post because I highlighted decred's treasury system, really? It's all come down to censorship, not liking what you see?

Thats the reason I do not participate in dashcentral. They practice censorship there. :mad:
 
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vampyren

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I agree, bad idea. Previous decision proposal clearly showed a lack of censensus on changing the proposal fee from 5 Dash to 1 Dash
(790 yes, 719 no), so why do this all over again ?

The change from $70 (when previous decision proposal was created) and our current Dash price of $164 is not all that different, so why would
masternode operators change their NO vote now and risk introducing a lot more low quality budget proposals and a lot more decision proposals ?

The 5 Dash fee has been in place for 7 years now, in those 7 years i did not see that Dash fee forming a problem, not when Dash was at the very start of
the 2017 bull market and not when Dash was at the very height of the bull market 2017.

No need to fix something that is not broken.
If Dash wants participation and adoption you cant charge these amounts. Even at 1Dash its a high barrier for some people. Not everyone are so rich and to exclude a big portion of people is not very decentralized. I dont care about 7 years ago as we are talking about here and now.
How do we want Dash to be perceived and accepted in a bigger picture for the future?
I am all for inclusion not exclusion.
 
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vazaki3

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Yep, been down a couple of days now, shortly after my proposal went live, maybe I broke it :-D

Dashnexus seems dead now! The curse that affects whoever tries to apply anything related to "vote the numbers", is a very powerful curse indeed!!!! Very few can survive the curse.......

"Here is wisdom, and whoever has a mind in him, let him vote the number of the beast, for it is the number of a human."


Heraclitus The Inception of Occidental Thinking and Logic: Heraclitus’s Doctrine of the Logos
 
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vazaki3

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GrandMasterDash

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Good news! The third biggest whale, a 102whale, a 2017 generation Dash community member, supports the set-your-price-proposals !!!
Thanks interesting. I did notice the sudden jump and was wondering what happened. Maybe it's Binance? Someone else? Anyway, unfortunately, it's nowhere near enough to pass.
 
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vazaki3

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Thanks interesting. I did notice the sudden jump and was wondering what happened. Maybe it's Binance? Someone else? Anyway, unfortunately, it's nowhere near enough to pass.

According the research of @xkcd, here you are the Binance nodes.

This fleet of 270 masternodes has no voting history, thus they cannot be seen in the voters report of mnowatch.
If you put "Binance" in the Types Filter, the result is zero masternodes.

The Binance masternodes that have be spotted, can be discovered in the firstResults/all_masternodes report of mnowatch, if you put "Binance" in the IP filter.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Some new analysis on the proposal suggests a fair fee of 2.5 DASH is warranted.
But MNOs have already stated their position; their belief that a lower fee will produce lower quality proposals.

I've been saying for years that the proposal fee should reduce inline with coin emission. I don't think anyone is interested unless it comes from the church of DCG.
 
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xkcd

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But MNOs have already stated their position; their belief that a lower fee will produce lower quality proposals.
Yes, but I am trying to educate the MNOs that spam != low quality proposals. They are two different things. The reason we have a proposal fee at all is because otherwise it would cost nothing to raise a proposal and it takes almost no work to do it, so someone could write a bot to simply submit proposals all day taking down the MN network which stores the proposals in RAM and never on the blockchain. This would essentially be a denial of service (DOS) attack.

IMO the fee was never meant as a grand filter for removing frivolous/low value proposals. It was there purely to protect the network from attack.

Further, IMO the high proposal fee is now liked by the status quo because it suits them to block out newcomers and competition since they are already well-known and get funding, just look at today's https://mnowatch.org/leaderboard/ line up, all the usual suspects get their DASH, all in the gravy zone and only 13 DASH leftover, Oh my! How perfectly it all fits and the in-the-know crew get all the funding. IMO this is way too orderly and shows the DAO is very pedestrian, very safe at the moment and I would like to see it shaken up with some ideas and new people coming through.

Ultimately my fear is that DASH is already a dead coin and uninteresting to outsiders, we are unable to attract significant new investment and continue our slide down CMC into obscurity. I pray one day the MNOs wake up and MDGA !
 

Geert

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Some new analysis on the proposal suggests a fair fee of 2.5 DASH is warranted.
It's not simply a question of math. The project is different now. It has more structure. And we have the DIF, so direct proposal funding is not the only option and in many cases IT IS NOT THE PREFERRED OPTION. Most of the people who are attracted to the proposal system are either amateurs or sociopaths. We need to keep the fee high so that they feel the appropriate amount of pain when they create a proposal.

@xkcd, how come you don't comment on DashCentral?
 
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xkcd

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@xkcd, how come you don't comment on DashCentral?
I am on DC, but for legacy reasons when I signed up, I joined under a different username, so it is not immediately obvious exactly who I am there.
 

GrandMasterDash

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It's not simply a question of math. The project is different now. It has more structure. And we have the DIF, so direct proposal funding is not the only option and in many cases IT IS NOT THE PREFERRED OPTION. Most of the people who are attracted to the proposal system are either amateurs or sociopaths. We need to keep the fee high so that they feel the appropriate amount of pain when they create a proposal.

@xkcd, how come you don't comment on DashCentral?
First year economic study says the concept of supply and demand is math. The current system has an unknown demand side because you choose to have the entry fee fixed at an arbitrary number. The equilibrium can not be discovered in the current system.

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that your assertions are at least partially correct. Perhaps then the optimum fee is higher than 5 dash? How are we going to discover that price? - by randomly choosing a higher number?

You may assert that the current system clearly works. After all, the budget this month was almost full, leaving only 13 dash on the table. This also means that coin inflation will also be maxed out; the coins requested will be created and distributed from the superblock. Conversely, if a lower fee leads to more demand that the system allows, those proposal fees will be burned, leading to increased coin scarcity. I mean, even if MNOs vote entirely for scams, the inflation can not go beyond what is already maxed out, it's just not possible.

More so, let's just say the proposal fee is 10 dash and the treasury still maxes out, that too creates more coin scarcity. In your assessment, it would also increase the quality of proposals. So while you're busy looking at the potential downsides, you're completely ignoring the potential upsides.

Assuming demand is there, increased coin scarcity pushes the price up, which means all stakeholders gets more bang for their buck.
 
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Geert

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The DIF complicates any analysis of supply and demand with regard to the treasury. This month the DIF created a supplementary proposal to basically throw the rest of the budget into the DIF's coffers and the DAO has obliged. I like this arrangement, because I view the DIF as the DAO's savings account. Any money sent to the DIF is recaptured by the DAO.
 

vazaki3

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A voice from the past, that It is still valid nowdays.

If you refuse to diminish the proposal fee you will never become big, because this bad decision reveals your real character. You are fat rich lazy guys and you are afraid of the work that is required in order to evaluate proposals. You are stupid guys and you are afraid of taking governance decisions thats why you set the question price so high. You are suspicious guys, you suspect that people will spam you, but spam has not occured yet. Who wants to join a community that is lead by lazy, suspicious and stupid guys that delegate their leading role to others or to employees-slaves? If you refuse to diminish the proposal fee you will bleed. You will lose both people (especially the new generations) and faith.
Dash's rank is now 53!!! And keep falling!

People against an adaptive proposal fee are bad actors, pure and simple.

Lets put a decision proposal asking to keep the Proposal Fee stable to 5 Dash forever!!!!

The 5 dash proposal fee was never voted by the masternodes. It was just a hardcoded number.
Lets put a proposal asking to keep the Proposal Fee stable to 5 Dash. I bet that the 5 dash proposal fee will not pass.
If the 5 dash proposal fee fails, this will be a proof on how much stupid the masternode community is. If the 5 dash proposal fee passes, and as long as this 5 dash was initialy imposed and not voted, this will prove how much conservative the masternode community is.

I now raise my offer to 12%

Siria,_sculture_del_mitreo_di_sidon,_389_dc,_krono_mitriaco_con_testa_leonina_e_spire_del_temp...jpg
...or does it?


" Zoroaster has also taught that men should make votive offerings and thank-offerings to Oromazes, and averting and mourning offerings to Areimanius. They pound up in a mortar a certain plant called omomi(?) ( ὄμωμι ) at the same time invoking Hades and Darkness; then they mix it with the blood of a wolf that has been sacrificed, and carry it out and cast it into a place where the sun never shines. fIn fact, they believe that some of the plants belong to the good god and others to the evil daemon;. " ref

"During this process Yaltabaoth and his angels hear the voice of the Monad’s Spirit. While they are terrified by the voice, its echo leaves a trace of an image of the Spirit on the “waters” that form the roof of their realm. Hoping to harness this power for themselves, they attempt to create a copy of this image. The end result of this process is the first human man, Adam. Recognizing an opportunity to retrieve the light imprisoned in the darkness of Yaltabaoth and his world, Sophia and agents of the higher order, referred to variously as the ‘plenoria’ or the ‘Epinoia’, and later as the ‘pleroma’, devise a scheme. They trick Yaltabaoth into blowing his own spiritual essence into Adam. This simultaneously animates Adam and empties Yaltabaoth of the portion of his being derived from Sophia. Seeing the luminosity, intelligence and general superiority of the now animate Adam, Yaltabaoth and the Archons regret their creation and do their best to imprison or dispose of him. Failing to do so, they then attempt to neutralize him by placing him in the Garden of Eden. In this narrative, the Garden of Eden is a false paradise where the fruit of the trees is sin, lust, ignorance, confinement and death. While they give Adam access to the tree of Life, they conceal the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. According to this narrative, the Tree actually represents the penetration of the positive forces of the higher world and the Epinoia into Yaltabaoth’s realm." ref

"This concludes Christ's message. Finally, the savior states that anyone who shares these revelations for personal profit will be cursed. The "Nag Hammadi Codex III" version of the text ends with the prayer, “Jesus Christ, Amen”. " ref
 

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