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Pre-Proposal Discussion: Jury Duty

Discussion in 'Pre + Budget Proposal Discussions' started by oaxaca, Mar 7, 2016.

  1. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    Pre-Proposal Discussion - Jury Duty

    Civilized societies have been calling groups of people together to discuss issues as long as there have been societies. In Scandinavia this process was called a "thing". This was the governing assembly made up of the free people of the community. In the Old Testament we find this: Deuteronomy 25:1: "If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked."

    In the modern DASH world, we have a similar need. Every month, budget proposals must be voted on by the masternode owners of the community. As time goes on, these proposals become more complex. This proposal will formalize the responsibilities of said masternode owners towards digesting this material.

    Basic Idea

    Each month a quorum of masternode owners will be selected at random from the list of active masternodes. These owners shall meet online to discuss the merits of the current batch of budget proposals. It is their job to separate the "righteous" from the "wicked".

    Practical Considerations

    There are hundreds of options for small groups to collaborate online. Try this search in your browser: "free online collaboration tool". One of these options can be used. 10 masternodes can be selected at random quite easily as this function already exists. These 10 Jurists will meet to discuss the merits of each proposal. At the end of their deliberations, they will create a summary of their findings with a post on dashtalk (or it's successor). The penalty for skipping Jury Duty is a one-time skipping of the next payment for that masternode.

    Cost of Implementation

    Members of the core team can be canvassed regarding how much work this will be to implement. It should be minimal. This work can be performed by internal programming talent or outsourced.

    Rationale

    Owning a masternode should involve more than simply collecting payments every X number of days. It should involve some research into the future of DASH and insuring the success of the project. Remember what Uncle Ben famously said:


    [​IMG]
     
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  2. AjM

    AjM Well-known Member
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    And what if you cant speak/write fluent english?

    I think this idea is good,
    but but how we can discuss if half of selected masternode operators cant speak/write fluent english, like me?
     
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  3. splawik21

    splawik21 Grizzled Member
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    You're doing well AjM ;)
     
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  4. Otaci

    Otaci Member

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    Not sure if this is a joke or not :-/
     
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  5. SnowHater

    SnowHater Active Member

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    Should these masternode owners meet online publicly (with real-time broadcast and logs)? Should the summary be like a consensus or each jurist can write its own conclusions separately? What if 10 masternodes equal 2-3 persons or even 1 person?
     
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  6. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    That's for the community to decide. As easy it would be to dismiss this idea, it does raise issues of governance, voting, the future of DASH, responsibility, etc.
     
  7. Otaci

    Otaci Member

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    Well yes, thats why I'm not sure. Getting the masternode owners to participate more sounds like a good idea.

    3500 nodes, 10 node owners meeting once a month, 350 months between being called up = 30 years? and if you dont turn up you miss one payment?

    EDIT: although I am very new here, I'm probably missing something
     
  8. AjM

    AjM Well-known Member
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    Maybe network could send invitation to 10 random mn owners, and if someone invited disagree,
    then another random mn owner is selected/invited instead by the network.

    So, no need forcing or punishing, maybe a small reward instead to all 10 selected.
     
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  9. qwizzie

    qwizzie Well-known Member

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    I dont think i can agree with this. people setting up masternodes should not be forced into anything and certainly should not be penalized
    if they dont want to participate (something my own little pre-proposal from some time ago about rewarding masternodes to vote brought to light).

    Also i like to do my own research with regards to budget proposals, whether thats on Dashwhale or in this forum or on Bitcointalk.
    So i think i will pass on Jury Duty .. while i still can
     
    #9 qwizzie, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2016
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  10. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    By all means. This would simply create an "executive summary" if you will. How many masternode owners that wanted to vote on the proof-of-labor would have appreciated a little help.
     
  11. stan.distortion

    stan.distortion Active Member

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    Wouldn't be against some sort of voting for inclusion but don't think it would need to be much different to voting on budgets. Not sure how much bloat thousands of proposals would cause/if it could be an issue at some stage, if it can then an abbreviate version of proposals requesting inclusion (maybe just a URL) would save space, maybe with a floating threshold on required support for inclusion.
     
  12. qwizzie

    qwizzie Well-known Member

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    proof of labor was an exceptional difficult budget proposal to grasp, i think what we really need is a better way (or a better medium) of discussing budget proposals.
    i think the new website will help with that. what i dont think is having "Jury Duty" shoved down our throath will help, we dont even have it where i live.
    Frankly it feels like we are giving up some freedom here.
     
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  13. naruby

    naruby New Member

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    I'm also very new to Dash.
    A major part of making the decision to get me a masternode was so I could active participate in deciding the road Dash should take. Loosing my vote right on the issues that I feel important is a but negative for me.

    I'm trying to get as informed as possible, mainly via DashTalk and Slack. If I only could vote ever other time, let alone the frequently of the proposal the changes are great that I wouldn't put in the as much time to follow up all the Dash news.
    We even when It's my turn for Jury Duty How would I make a balance descision?
     
  14. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    This "jury" does not take away your vote. It would simply do some background research and post their findings.
     
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  15. qwizzie

    qwizzie Well-known Member

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    i think "Jury Duty" is mainly an USA thing which will conflict with European masternode owners, as they have a totally different juristical system.
    Which means you will hit a cultural wall pretty much right away.

    I'm still not totally convinced this is not a thread created to stir up some discussion and measure "the wisdom of the crowd"
     
    #15 qwizzie, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2016
  16. fible1

    fible1 Well-known Member
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    I feel like this idea introduces a level of complication. Having to meet, different time zones, languages, etc. Also, some people just wont want to meet, so what is a quorum exactly? And what happens if we don't achieve a quorum?

    I believe in the wisdom of crowds, that's one of the reasons I invested in Dash, decentralized governance from crowds (not small groups) is the future. The more people that vote, the more efficient the process will become. We've done well so far, and as more people come into Dash, decisions will have more discussion and be more informed.

    That's my two cents.

    Pablo.
     
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  17. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    Well, here's some voting percentages:

    Liquidity 1518 total votes 43%
    Payment process 48%
    Labor 21%

    even no-brainers like dash.org only get 51%
    core team only got 58%

    That's a lot of non-voters.
     
  18. fible1

    fible1 Well-known Member
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    Actually its not. I remember my statistics professor saying that when people were asked to take a survey where they actually got a tangible prize (I think they got a free lunch credit or something) in a college campus, the number of people who did the survey went down every time they were asked to do it again. I would wager that for non "exciting" proposals, we should get about 18% steady so we are right around where we should be.

    Also, as we gain adoption, Evan has discussed eventually lowering the amount needed to run a masternode, the number of voters will climb. 18% of a million users is a heck of a lot of people. We have to be patient and develop more mass appeal and also follow Evan's plan once the price is right.

    Again, it's my two cents. I just don't see this as a problem, but I understand where you are coming from.

    Pablo.
     
  19. jpr

    jpr Active Member

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    Otoh will have an online meeting every month if this passes xD
     
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  20. stan.distortion

    stan.distortion Active Member

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    Just a thought, how much do languages effect votes received? Lack of multilingual support may be hurting turnout.
     
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  21. SnowHater

    SnowHater Active Member

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    I've found this table.

    [​IMG]

    So, MN collateral doesn't get smaller in terms of USD with the network growth.
    1000 * 10 = 10000 USD
    500 * 100 = 50000 USD
    250 * 1000 = 250000 USD
     
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  22. fible1

    fible1 Well-known Member
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    That makes sense. Interesting.

    Have to percolate on that one :).

    Pablo.
     
  23. SnowHater

    SnowHater Active Member

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    Maybe we should hire some experts to do such summaries about a batch of users proposals through the budget system itself. If one summary costs 10 DASH then 50 DASH will cover this batch with five real people opinions. If someone covers all the proposals wisely, unbiased and well then he/she can actually earn some money by it. In case that one of the experts skips proposals now and then or covers them with poor attention and biased then he/she just won't be paid based on masternodes votes eventually. The main thing mastenodes should remember in this case though: experts do not have to make the same conclusions that you do. You should only check if their conclusions are unbiased and based on logic / deep understanding of how things work. Think of them like of judges.

    What do you think?
     
    #23 SnowHater, Mar 7, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2016
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  24. tungfa

    tungfa Administrator
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    I think in general this is a great idea , it would help 'normal' (not so engaged) users to make decisions without reading pages and pages on DT
    I am agansinst a mandatory selection, you can not force anybody
    it is still a tricky process to 'suggest independently' as you can approach this as a straight up business deal , community engagement , optional might fail but bring a lot good along the way ,.... many angles in this as we saw with the fiat dash proposal.
    + there is a time issue, as close to the superblock these discussions heat up and proposal owners might give good/ interesting facts late.
    I believe a group of trusted community guys who revive proposals , maybe even put certain into simple English (proof of something proposal) would definately improve and streamline the voting process as there is a lot of information and reading to do and most people just do not have the time to work through all these pages , a simple , short 'translation' + suggestion would definately do the trick
     
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  25. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    Nobody likes being on Jury Duty and have a hundred reasons why we can't serve, yet we all want to have Juries. This is the price we pay. Skip your collective responsibility, skip a payment.
    [​IMG]
     
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  26. SnowHater

    SnowHater Active Member

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    People do some things better and more willingly than the others. So if it is mandatory then sometimes the quality of this duty will be poor. IMO, only experts and enthusiasts should do such things. Why not pay a little of budget money for good reports?
     
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  27. oaxaca

    oaxaca Well-known Member
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    Sometimes it will be poor. "Yeah, this proposal rocks!"
    Sometimes it will be great. "Our 7 point quantum anaylsis shows..."


    Yes, and WE ARE those experts and enthusiasts.
     
  28. qwizzie

    qwizzie Well-known Member

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    no to skipping MN payments .. ever.
     
  29. TheDashGuy

    TheDashGuy Well-known Member

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    I wouldn't trust this community with being my jury.... no offense but I would be hanged by the neck for witchcraft if that were to happen i'm sure..
     
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  30. calnaughtonjnr

    calnaughtonjnr Well-known Member
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    upload_2016-3-8_17-53-58.png
    Coincidence? :D
     
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