Pre-Proposal: ''Dash Chat''

Dec 31, 2016
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The control is really whoever had the login to LiveChat Inc right, outside of dash.org operators removing the chat from the page? How would you see that side of it working?
I didn't fully understand your question, can you rephrase it please?

You should know that I do not have to be the Dash Chat manager, it was merely a suggestion. In fact anyone could apply to be the manager. Any Dash Chat member can login to the platform to review the whole operation. There is nothing that would be ''hidden'' with sole access to one person.
 

AndyDark

Well-known Member
Sep 10, 2014
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705
163
I didn't fully understand your question, can you rephrase it please?

You should know that I do not have to be the Dash Chat manager, it was merely a suggestion. In fact anyone could apply to be the manager. Any Dash Chat member can login to the platform to review the whole operation. There is nothing that would be ''hidden'' with sole access to one person.
Sure no problem...

My understanding is we are talking about someone signing up to https://www.livechatinc.com/ and paying for that subscription and Dash devs integrate that to dash.org landing page. That account holder will have the ultimate control of who is chatting with dash.org visitors, the conversations they are having (and keeping that in check) and additional things like analytics of every user who visits Dash.org.

So it's that account holder that is really controlling the chat box and responsible for the content and access to all the user conversations and analytics and that's the control/access i think the network should think hard about who it gives it to.

My question is, with your proposal, who is the account holder with LiveChat Inc?

Andy
 
Dec 31, 2016
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I didn't fully understand your question, can you rephrase it please?

You should know that I do not have to be the Dash Chat manager, it was merely a suggestion. In fact anyone could apply to be the manager. Any Dash Chat member can login to the platform to review the whole operation. There is nothing that would be ''hidden'' with sole access to one person.
Sure no problem...

My understanding is we are talking about someone signing up to https://www.livechatinc.com/ and paying for that subscription and Dash devs integrate that to dash.org landing page. That account holder will have the ultimate control of who is chatting with dash.org visitors, the conversations they are having (and keeping that in check) and additional things like analytics of every user who visits Dash.org.

So it's that account holder that is really controlling the chat box and responsible for the content and access to all the user conversations and analytics and that's the control i think the network should think hard about who it gives it to.

My question is, with your proposal, who is that account holder with LiveChat Inc?

Andy
Understood. I understand your concerns. Yes, in livechatinc there must be an account ''owner'', that's what they call it. There are also administrators that can add or remove live agent accounts. However, anyone with an account of Dash Chat's livechatinc account can have access to the chat transcripts that took place within Dash Chat. I do agree that I shouldn't have the ''owner'' account since I am a new member of the community. Perhaps someone like @eduffield can have that account. I think the account holder or account ''owner'' should be someone from the Dash Core Team. Like I mentioned before, I would be totally happy to be just a live agent under the leadership with someone with much more experience than myself. The position of ''Dash Chat Manager'' was vacant since the beginning, you can check it in the original volunteer form I provided https://goo.gl/forms/owHJRfpW1OS0YerM2

All the analytics and reports are accessible by any of the Dash Chat team. Whether the ''owner'', ''administrator/s'' or just a ''live agent''.
 
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AndyDark

Well-known Member
Sep 10, 2014
353
705
163
I didn't fully understand your question, can you rephrase it please?

You should know that I do not have to be the Dash Chat manager, it was merely a suggestion. In fact anyone could apply to be the manager. Any Dash Chat member can login to the platform to review the whole operation. There is nothing that would be ''hidden'' with sole access to one person.


Understood. I understand your concerns. Yes, in livechatinc there must be an account ''owner'', that's what they call it. There are also administrators that can add or remove live agent accounts. However, anyone with an account of Dash Chat's livechatinc account can have access to the chat transcripts that took place within Dash Chat. I do agree that I shouldn't have the ''owner'' account since I am a new member of the community. Perhaps someone like @eduffield can have that account. Like I mentioned before, I would be totally happy to be just a live agent under the leadership with someone with much more experience than myself. The position of ''Dash Chat Manager'' was vacant since the beginning, you can check it in the original volunteer form I provided https://goo.gl/forms/owHJRfpW1OS0YerM2

All the analytics and reports are accessible by any of the Dash Chat team. Whether the ''owner'', ''administrator/s'' or just a ''live agent''.
Hi - sorry, you didn't really answer my question (or it's not clear to me anyway).

Who is the account holder with LiveChat inc - you, or someone else?
 
Dec 31, 2016
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Hi - sorry, you didn't really answer my question.

Who is the account holder with LiveChat inc - you, or someone else?
There isn't any as there is no LiveChat inc account. Once the account is made then someone has to be the account holder or account ''owner'', he is the one that pays for the service. I think it should be someone from the Dash Core Team.
 

AndyDark

Well-known Member
Sep 10, 2014
353
705
163
There isn't any as there is no LiveChat inc account. Once the account is made then someone has to be the account holder or account ''owner'', he is the one that pays for the service. I think it should be someone from the Dash Core Team.
Ok so I signed up and just tried a local integration.

The person who signs up first is the account "owner". Only 1 person can be the owner, and they can assign Admins and Agents and the owner account can be changed https://www.livechatinc.com/kb/changing-the-owner/.

Everyone (owner, admins, agents) can see analytics such as visitor name, browser type, Ip address, email, local time and country, also recurring visits, and all chat histories.

Lets say even if a core team member signs up as the owner (and therefore has ultimate control of who is involved and moderating that) there are still many issues for me. the main one being:

It will just take 1 user to get scammed and by an "official representative" via the official site homepage, and the whole Dash name is hurt. The main thing you don't want in cryptocurrencies is users losing funds, if it happened to us in such a way it would be a real dumb thing for us to have enabled.
 
Dec 31, 2016
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Ok so I signed up and just tried a local integration.

The person who signs up first is the account "owner". Only 1 person can be the owner, and they can assign Admins and Agents and the owner account can be changed https://www.livechatinc.com/kb/changing-the-owner/.

Everyone (owner, admins, agents) can see analytics such as visitor name, browser type, Ip address, email, local time and country, also recurring visits, and all chat histories.

Lets say even if a core team member signs up as the owner (and therefore has ultimate control of who is involved and moderating that) there are still many issues for me. the main one being:

It will just take 1 user to get scammed and by an "official representative" via the official site homepage, and the whole Dash name is hurt. The main thing you don't want in cryptocurrencies is users losing funds, if it happened to us in such a way it would be a real dumb thing for us to have enabled.

Yes, the account owner can be changed but only by the owner himself.

Yes, everyone can see the analytics and reporting, such as the visitor's first name or any nickname they chose when entering the chat, the visitor is by no means obligated to provide his real name if they do not want to. Yes they have access to their browser type, IP address, email, local time, the IP's country, recurring visit and chat histories... So what is wrong with that? In reality these are all tools to provide a better service. How? Well by knowing their name you can address someone by their first name which psychologically creates a stronger connection between the two parties. Knowing the browser type and size is good so you know for example not to send large amounts of texts if they are on a mobile browser. Their Email is not a requirement, a person can choose to provide their email address and they can also choose to not provide their email address, no one is forced to do anything. The purpose of collecting email addresses is for building up email lists that you can then use to your advantage in marketing your product, it is not for anything negative or any kind of conspiracy. Knowing the amount of recurring visits is also something that agents can use to their advantage in the chat, for example, they may realize that a specific visitor has been coming multiple times to ask silly questions, then they can make a decision to kindly end the conversation because the person is not a serious visitor. Chat histories the same, you know what the person may have been asking before and how it was answered by previous agents so you can better reply to their questions the second time around.

You then mentioned the possibility of a visitor being ''scammed'' by one of our live agents. Yeah, well if we use this logic then what's preventing a visitor of dash.org of being ''scammed' by the official representative handling the contact form? https://www.dash.org/contact/

The same logic is applied. The reason why that is unlikely to happen https://www.dash.org/contact/ is the same reason why it is unlikely to happen in Dash Chat. Anyone that scams a visitor will get caught and personally, I don't think that one of the agents will do that, but if they do they will get caught via the Quality Assurance. That statement you made really sounds pessimistic to me and it is like saying: '' Hey, let's never learn to drive because if we do then we might crash the car or get in a very bad car accident''. Why not look at all the potential benefits of driving a car? Why not look at all the potential benefits of Dash Chat, think about all the new users we can potential acquire through the collective efforts of Dash Chat agents? What about all the support like for example helping a brand new Dash user acquire his first coins in Poloniex and explaining to them some security measures with regards to protecting their funds like never to share their wallet.dat file with anyone. What about all the positive aspects?
 

AndyDark

Well-known Member
Sep 10, 2014
353
705
163
Yes, the account owner can be changed but only by the owner himself.

Yes, everyone can see the analytics and reporting, such as the visitor's first name or any nickname they chose when entering the chat, the visitor is by no means obligated to provide his real name if they do not want to. Yes they have access to their browser type, IP address, email, local time, the IP's country, recurring visit and chat histories... So what is wrong with that? In reality these are all tools to provide a better service. How? Well by knowing their name you can address someone by their first name which psychologically creates a stronger connection between the two parties. Knowing the browser type and size is good so you know for example not to send large amounts of texts if they are on a mobile browser. Their Email is not a requirement, a person can choose to provide their email address and they can also choose to not provide their email address, no one is forced to do anything. The purpose of collecting email addresses is for building up email lists that you can then use to your advantage in marketing your product, it is not for anything negative or any kind of conspiracy. Knowing the amount of recurring visits is also something that agents can use to their advantage in the chat, for example, they may realize that a specific visitor has been coming multiple times to ask silly questions, then they can make a decision to kindly end the conversation because the person is not a serious visitor. Chat histories the same, you know what the person may have been asking before and how it was answered by previous agents so you can better reply to their questions the second time around.

You then mentioned the possibility of a visitor being ''scammed'' by one of our live agents. Yeah, well if we use this logic then what's preventing a visitor of dash.org of being ''scammed' by the official representative handling the contact form? https://www.dash.org/contact/

The same logic is applied. The reason why that is unlikely to happen https://www.dash.org/contact/ is the same reason why it is unlikely to happen in Dash Chat. Anyone that scams a visitor will get caught and personally, I don't think that one of the agents will do that, but if they do they will get caught via the Quality Assurance. That statement you made really sounds pessimistic to me and it is like saying: '' Hey, let's never learn to drive because if we do then we might crash the car or get in a very bad car accident''. Why not look at all the potential benefits of driving a car? Why not look at all the potential benefits of Dash Chat, think about all the new users we can potential acquire through the collective efforts of Dash Chat agents? What about all the support like for example helping a brand new Dash user acquire his first coins in Poloniex and explaining to them some security measures with regards to protecting their funds like never to share their wallet.dat file with anyone. What about all the positive aspects?
well, someone with a 1 week account isn't going to have access to dash.org/contact - chat agents has at least you with 1 week old account planning to be at least an agent on there, so that's the first difference.

Second, talking a non-technical noob who doesn't know first thing about crypto into buying Dash from Poloniex on a chat box on the homepage just seems like really trying to hard sell something...why? are we in a market cap race? Don't you think we should put the users first, e.g. if Dash (and all cryptos) are so hard to use that non-tech users (90% of internet) can easily mess up, lose coins, lose backups, not encrypt, get hacked, we should probably try to fix that fundamental problem before trying to push them to buy - the point of Dash for me is to help as large amount of people as possible by giving them a viable fiat alternative, well there's a few things to do first before those users can actually benefit from crypto and use it safely without screwing up, solution is to make the currency usable, securely, decentralized, for non-tech noob users so they can a) signup b) not install anything c) control everything and have full SPV access d) do this without an intermediary e) login to secure wallet and buy from merchant by entering their username - and we're trying to do this as quickly as possible. Hard selling at this stage in any crypto seems overreaching to me.

I think we have really different opinions anyway. Lets just leave it up to the network. If this passes and there are unofficial / noob accounts having access to dash.org chat, i personally would be very vocal to point out that's probably an extremely bad strategic decision and something has gone wrong that this was allowed. If it passes and it will be controlled / moderated by well known people core team or not with no anonymous agents including yourself, then there's not much point me opposing it, but to be honest i think it's a bit scammy. I don't think that's your intention and i guess most people want to sell their cryptos to new users as hard as possible (looking at alt coins in general) and i agree with that when it's usable but that's not quite yet. I don't really want to continue discussing it a lot though I don't have anything new to add.
 
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Dec 31, 2016
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well, someone with a 1 week account isn't going to have access to dash.org/contact - chat agents has at least you with 1 week old account planning to be at least an agent on there, so that's the first difference.

Second, talking a non-technical noob who doesn't know first thing about crypto into buying Dash from Poloniex on a chat box on the homepage just seems like really trying to hard sell something...why? are we in a market cap race? Don't you think we should put the users first, e.g. if Dash (and all cryptos) are so hard to use that non-tech users (90% of internet) can easily mess up, lose coins, lose backups, not encrypt, get hacked, we should probably try to fix that fundamental problem before trying to push them to buy - the point of Dash for me is to help as large amount of people as possible by giving them a viable fiat alternative, well there's a few things to do first before those users can actually benefit from crypto and use it safely without screwing up, solution is to make the currency usable, securely, decentralized, for non-tech noob users so they can a) signup b) not install anything c) control everything and have full SPV access d) do this without an intermediary e) login to secure wallet and buy from merchant by entering their username - and we're trying to do this as quickly as possible. Hard selling at this stage in any crypto seems overreaching to me.

I think we have really different opinions anyway. Lets just leave it up to the network. If this passes and there are unofficial / noob accounts having access to dash.org chat, i personally would be very vocal to point out that's probably an extremely bad strategic decision and something has gone wrong that this was allowed. If it passes and it will be controlled / moderated by well known people core team or not with no anonymous agents including yourself, then there's not much point me opposing it, but to be honest i think it's a bit scammy. I don't think that's your intention and i guess most people want to sell their cryptos to new users as hard as possible (looking at alt coins in general) and i agree with that when it's usable but that's not quite yet. I don't really want to continue discussing it a lot though I don't have anything new to add.
You mentioned: '' Don't you think we should put the users first, e.g. if Dash (and all cryptos) are so hard to use that non-tech users (90% of internet) can easily mess up, lose coins, lose backups, not encrypt, get hacked, we should probably try to fix that fundamental problem before trying to push them to buy''

This is one of the things I envision for Dash Chat, live agents to help new users in their path to crypto. I was thinking of collaborating with one of the already approved video proposals to the treasury to make a video series aimed just for new users. Then our agents would have better tools to share this instructional video content that's specific to the visitor's current situation. For example, the visitor needs help in setting up his masternode, then the live agent provides him with a video link tutorial for this or an approved article link that explains how to do this specific task. This would save the visitor from having to search for it himself and he would know it is safe since it is coming from a Dash Chat representative.

Secondly, I don't see any problem with having a one week old account of dash.org/forum and being an agent. Having a one week old account of dash.org/forum doesn't necessarily mean that I am one week old to the crypto world or to Dash. The reason why I believe this isn't a problem at all is because all the work performed by this guy whose account is one week old will be completely transparent and verifiable by other members of Dash Chat that will have very old dash.org/forum accounts.
Picture the following hypothetical scenario: ' Juan Galt gets hired to deliver a conference about Dash Chat but then someone spots out that his dash.org/forum account is only 1 month old!
So.... Should he (or anyone else for that matter) not participate in this Dash conference that aims to promote Dash just because his dash.org/forum account is a week/month old?
It makes no sense, his work at the conference will completely transparent and verifiable by everyone there. Similarly, my work will be completely transparent and 100% verifiable by everyone in Dash Chat, especially by some of the well-known, trusted members of the community who just so happen to also be Dash Chat members.

I guess we can agree to disagree.

@TroyDASH @fernando @fible1 @splawik21
 
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