MasterNode Scaling...

camosoul

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Sep 19, 2014
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MNOs, are you going to build you own datacenter?

When the chain scales to 100s of MB per block, and you're required to store it on an SSD (array), are you willing to do this? Are you going to build you own datacenter and fill it with this junk?

I'm not a trader/ponzi/speculator, but this forces one to ask; do you think DASH's price will ever be high enough to support what it demands?

Doesn't this result in centralization?

Will each MN have to have it's own, unique copy of the data stored? If not, does this consolidation harm integrity/resiliancy; also play to centralization?

Will DashDrive shard data?

If DASH does get that valuable, won't we then face a granularity/resolution problem? Perpetual huge blockchain on Masternodes seems to fix a scale-ability problem, but it would need to be of such a large value that it creates a fungibility/resolution problem. Are private sidechains inevitable? Will they be accommodated? Doesn't IX/IS pretty much accommodate them?

WORM/ROM/PROM/EPROM/EEPROM version of SDD? Cheaper or more expensive? SSD-flush-to-WORM when it doesn't wag for X blocks? I don't know the FS that does that... Is this the special hardware Evan want's to make?

People with brains; what say you?

Surely, dirty hippies will want to blow up your building. Can you, will you, defend it? What if those dirty hippies are neo-Bolshevik guvthugs pushing StateCoin?

DASH inevitably becomes non-portable. Will you build in Florida? Or Utah? Or the Sahara Desert and power if from PV? Won't this result in geographical consolidation? Everyone will pick the same geographical/political stable areas.

Is it even possible to remain distributed and trustless? Should we just give up and accept the inevitable?

Going forward, MNOs need to know... The MNOs of today are largely too stupid to ask, much less answer these questions. But, what few brains there are, what say you?
 
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Dandy

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We're still very far off from that.
But personally, I'm preparing to have 1Gbit net and a fast computer for MNO, going into 2018.

Don't forget that hardware is progressing very fast. In a few years, we will have massive SSD drives that are not that expensive.
And yes, I would build my datacenter if the network requires it and I can afford it from the MNO rewards.
 

Koromoto

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Dec 2, 2017
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I think the days of universally distributed blockchains are gone and central blockchains will take over. I believe miners are dead and masternodes will reign supreme, the fewer the better. I believe instant transactions will be the only kind of transactions, why would you settle for less?. I believe total anonymity and privacy will win in the end. I also believe fees would go the way of the dodo. And lastly, I also believe there will be two main currencies (and a thousand wannabes), one for store of value and one for global commerce. That's the path of less resistance, and resistance is indeed futile.

It won't happen overnight but that's the future as I see it. Adjust accordingly.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Masternode Owner/Operator
Jul 12, 2015
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I don't see this as black and white. Some cryptos will be far more distributed but unable to meet the demands of high tps. Some cryptos will find their niche and not target mass market. Dash, therefore, is filling a gap that would of been filled anyway (mass market with ability to store high value). Technologies like DAG may work for low value transactions but at this point I am skeptical they are secure for high value.

I understand where you are coming from. The only thing I would say is, and I suspect you might agree, is that dash needs rapid expansion of it's R&D to face these challenges. We either innovate and push the boundaries, or die. Tbh, I could make that argument for all cryptos.
 

lombardo2

New Member
Oct 26, 2016
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There could be minimum requirements on MNs that the software can enforce. If MNs dont meet those requirements then no pay.

BTW I think Dash should look into sharding too.
 

bhkien

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Mar 31, 2014
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MNOs, are you going to build you own datacenter?

When the chain scales to 100s of MB per block, and you're required to store it on an SSD (array), are you willing to do this? Are you going to build you own datacenter and fill it with this junk?

I'm not a trader/ponzi/speculator, but this forces one to ask; do you think DASH's price will ever be high enough to support what it demands?

Doesn't this result in centralization?

Will each MN have to have it's own, unique copy of the data stored? If not, does this consolidation harm integrity/resiliancy; also play to centralization?

Will DashDrive shard data?

If DASH does get that valuable, won't we then face a granularity/resolution problem? Perpetual huge blockchain on Masternodes seems to fix a scale-ability problem, but it would need to be of such a large value that it creates a fungibility/resolution problem. Are private sidechains inevitable? Will they be accommodated? Doesn't IX/IS pretty much accommodate them?

WORM/ROM/PROM/EPROM/EEPROM version of SDD? Cheaper or more expensive? SSD-flush-to-WORM when it doesn't wag for X blocks? I don't know the FS that does that... Is this the special hardware Evan want's to make?

People with brains; what say you?

Surely, dirty hippies will want to blow up your building. Can you, will you, defend it? What if those dirty hippies are neo-Bolshevik guvthugs pushing StateCoin?

DASH inevitably becomes non-portable. Will you build in Florida? Or Utah? Or the Sahara Desert and power if from PV? Won't this result in geographical consolidation? Everyone will pick the same geographical/political stable areas.

Is it even possible to remain distributed and trustless? Should we just give up and accept the inevitable?

Going forward, MNOs need to know... The MNOs of today are largely too stupid to ask, much less answer these questions. But, what few brains there are, what say you?
It is not the problem because if Dash block up to 100 Mb then its price should be about $10,000. If I cannot do, I will find and hire someone who have enough technical competence to do that for me.
 

TroyDASH

Well-known Member
Jul 31, 2015
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It is good to be thinking way ahead and I think @camosoul makes a good point, but for me the answer is yes, I would be willing to do those things. These changes are not going to happen overnight so it's not like it is going to be a sudden shock to everyone. Over time, people who are overwhelmed or unwilling to do what is needed for MN upkeep will eventually stop operating MNs. Whether they also sell their collateral as well is a separate decision.
 

Ftoole

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Aug 20, 2017
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Well thier is a high level colo right down the street from me I can get a rack with 30 amps 100 MB’s synchronous internet connection over 6 backbone providers for about 7500 a month so dash goes over 1k I can pay the rack fee every month. So we get dash to 5k sure it would be easy to afford the requirements.
 

billyjoeallen

Member
Dec 14, 2017
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There is a possible solution to scaling that doesn't involve quadratic increases in difficulty with linear increases in transactions: hashgraph. Evan Duffield's announcement of the scaling roadmap, if implemented, will require masternodes to make significant upgrades in hardware and bandwidth. This may work for a while, but because verification difficulty increases quadratically with linear increases in rate of transactions, eventually will produce diminishing returns and possibly masternode falloff. Licensing hashgraph technology will could potentially increase transaction capacity dramatically for less money. The tech has a U.S. patent, so a 20 year lisence is effectively the same as a permanent license. Even if we didn't end up adopting Swirld's nuclear blockchain on steroids, it would still be worth the investment ( prolly a few million $) as an insurance policy.
 

jeffh

Member
May 8, 2017
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Well thier is a high level colo right down the street from me I can get a rack with 30 amps 100 MB’s synchronous internet connection over 6 backbone providers for about 7500 a month so dash goes over 1k I can pay the rack fee every month. So we get dash to 5k sure it would be easy to afford the requirements.
Wow that's really overpriced. Check out Hurricane Electric.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Ftoole

Member
Aug 20, 2017
132
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Is thier internet configured to failover to a different provider automatically and ur static ips stay the same?
Do they guarantee your bandwidth?
Do they have power from 2 different transfer stations?
Are they a tier 3 certified data Center?
You want a high level dc if your gonna be running a mn once all the requirements require you to have a rack my experience is you pay for what you get with datacenters.
 

jeffh

Member
May 8, 2017
108
45
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Is thier internet configured to failover to a different provider automatically and ur static ips stay the same?
Do they guarantee your bandwidth?
Do they have power from 2 different transfer stations?
Are they a tier 3 certified data Center?
You want a high level dc if your gonna be running a mn once all the requirements require you to have a rack my experience is you pay for what you get with datacenters.
From their wiki page,

Within its global network, Hurricane Electric is connected to more than 156 major exchange points[8][9] and exchanges IP traffic directly with more than 6,750 different networks.[10]

According to European Internet Exchange Association (Euro-IX), Hurricane Electric ranks first in the world for the number of connections to Internet exchange points, with presence at 80 of Euro-IX member IXPs.[11]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

solarguy

Active Member
Mar 15, 2017
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Better hardware, better software, and better decentralization. There are ways to incentivize better decentralization/distribution of the hardware as well.

Yes, I accept your challenge.
 

demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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Dash Address
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I think the days of universally distributed blockchains are gone and central blockchains will take over. I believe miners are dead and masternodes will reign supreme, the fewer the better. I believe instant transactions will be the only kind of transactions, why would you settle for less?. I believe total anonymity and privacy will win in the end. I also believe fees would go the way of the dodo. And lastly, I also believe there will be two main currencies (and a thousand wannabes), one for store of value and one for global commerce. That's the path of less resistance, and resistance is indeed futile.

It won't happen overnight but that's the future as I see it. Adjust accordingly.
Stop taking the pills. Start knowing ...

 
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demo

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Apr 23, 2016
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I understand where you are coming from. The only thing I would say is, and I suspect you might agree, is that dash needs rapid expansion of it's R&D to face these challenges. We either innovate and push the boundaries, or die. Tbh, I could make that argument for all cryptos.
With your budget full of advertising proposals, and with Dash core developers being salary slaves, do you expect R&D to flourish?
 

Arthyron

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May 29, 2017
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I've been spending the last few weeks really combing through the information (Whitepapers, Videos, Articles, etc) about Hashgraph, and given the huge amount of funds available to us through the Treasury at this point, I think we need to seriously consider integrating the Hashgraph on the Dash Network. It would immediately allow us to scale to greater than credit-card TPS, greatly reduce the amount of data we would have to send, and drastically increase total network security. Obviously this would be a huge overhaul for the whole system, but we'd be the first to implement the Hashgraph on a public ledger system. Honestly, I think it's a brilliant move that would effectively future-proof the Dash network.

Even at this level, it completely blows all blockchain based systems out of the water and it's mind-boggling that no one has managed to implement it in a Cryptocurrency yet. We have the ability to become the first, and I think we should.
 

Dandy

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I don't think that speed will be an issue for Dash for a few years at least, also to implement such a big change would take a very long time and would require extensive rework and testing, but I agree that we should consider all of the alternatives for the future.
I would like to hear from the core team if there is someone that is looking into this and similar ideas?
 
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Arthyron

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May 29, 2017
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I don't think that speed will be an issue for Dash for a few years at least, also to implement such a big change would take a very long time and would require extensive rework and testing, but I agree that we should consider all of the alternatives for the future.
I would like to hear from the core team if there is someone that is looking into this and similar ideas?
Probably not, but we are uniquely poised to be able to be the first to secure this technology for a public ledger system, and it would probably allow us to avoid having to change or upgrade our hardware for much longer since it would drastically reduce the amount of information we have to move while exponentially increasing our speed. It would go from making us a decent decentralized payment system to objectively better than extant payment systems in one fell swoop. Hashgraph is just objectively better than blockchain, I'm not really seeing a downside aside from the core devs having to do a lot of extra work, but I'm sure it's worthwhile work to be doing.
 

Dandy

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I did some research on that Hashgraph technology and I must say I find it impressive. But I see a few issues with integrating it in Dash.
First, it's not open source (at least currently) and Dash is committed to being open source.
Second, it's not yet tested in really big networks, so I'm not certain if all potential vectors of attack are yet known.
Third, I don't see how it can be integrated into Dash structure, as it would require no miners and no masternodes.
 

Arthyron

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May 29, 2017
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I did some research on that Hashgraph technology and I must say I find it impressive. But I see a few issues with integrating it in Dash.
First, it's not open source (at least currently) and Dash is committed to being open source.
Second, it's not yet tested in really big networks, so I'm not certain if all potential vectors of attack are yet known.
Third, I don't see how it can be integrated into Dash structure, as it would require no miners and no masternodes.
1. You're correct there. It's not Open Source, but the SDK is available for download: https://hashgraph.com/#sdk
2. It was recently integrated in to CULedger servicing the majority of the US Credit Unions beating out IBM's ledger technology, which is damned impressive considering they were less than a dozen people at the time. It's immune to the standard attack vectors cryptos commonly face that one can be immune to, and is so far the only asynchronous byzantine fault tolerant algorithm out there.
3. It doesn't *require* miners, but mining could be instituted for whatever reason if you wanted. Baird mentions mining or other intensive activities as being something that is incentivized as a barrier to entry in a public ledger system (in this video specifically:
at around 30:00), but obviously wouldn't *need* to take place, as the primary function of mining is to slow down the blockchain to a manageable pace and prevent wild forking. The hashgraph operates as a consensus/trust algorithm on its own layer. Masternodes operate on another layer as well, so they'd still need to exist for Private Send and other specialized transaction types (InstantSend might be redundant or unnecessary with a 250,000+ TPS speed on a single shard). What would change here, however, is the fact that the Treasury is allocated from block rewards, as are MN payouts, so without blocks, there'd need to be some other operation responsible for controlling emissions.

I could be wrong, though, I'm not a software developer, just trying to piece together how the technologies could be integrated from what I've read. I really hope Dash could be the first, because whoever *does* successfully integrate it first is going to be a serious contender in the crypto space. I'm not sure blockchain-based technologies can really even compete with that...
 

billyjoeallen

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The primary function of mining is NOT to slow down the blockchain but to ensure SCARCITY and decentralized coin distribution. Speed is worthless if we get the economics wrong.
 

demo

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First, it's not open source (at least currently) and Dash is committed to being open source
Dash is not committed of being open source, because Evolution is (until now) closed source.

Furthermore there is a difference between the opensource and the free software. The free opensource software can be used by everyone, for commercial, for military or for any good or destructive purpose. While the restrictive opensource may be freely available for everyone, but for commercial or military purposes (or any other restriciton the author imposes) you may have to pay or get a license. The companies, the army, the government e.t.c. advertise and fund all these free opensource communities, which are full of spies. And the stupid brainwashed free_opensource developer slaves keep offering their job without restrictions, for the benefit of the evil.
 
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Dandy

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Dash Evolution will be open source once it's finished and operational and will not require licensing.

But we should seriously consider this Hashgraph or some similar technology. We should open another thread dedicated to discussing the Hashgraph. I must admit that now I want to learn as much as possible about it.
 
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demo

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Dash Evolution will be open source once it's finished and operational and will not require licensing.
Dash Evolution is not open source, because the definition of opensource requires this to be open from the very early stages.
 

demo

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I guess that then you don't consider Linux open source also because Linus Torvalds developed the first kernel himself?
The first linux kernel was restrictive opensource (free for non commercial uses) and not free opensource. Then the agents contacted Linus.

But Linux was opensource for sure, because Linus gave the code at the very early stages. April 1991 Linus started working ALONE, August 1991 he gave the source to the opensource community. In the case of Dash evolution is not the same. Evolution is developed by a group of persons and not by a single developer, and it is still closed, although at least 1 year passed.
 
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