Latest DCG Accountability & Transparency Discussions in Discord & Reddit

Should DCG's Compensation Proposal Be Split Between DCG Dev/Tech and non DCG Dev/Tech?


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    17
  • Poll closed .

Hilawe

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Whether you're an MNO or not, I highly advise that you check out all the lively conversations that were discussed after Joel's podcast with Mark. If you're interested, first join the Dash Discord and check out the public channels and then follow the links I provide below.

If you're an MNO, ask one of the Discord mods (I'm one of them) via DM to let you into the private #mno channel where there are even more interesting conversations you don't want to miss. You'll either have to sign a message or verify your Forum MNO tag to get into the #mno channel.

1) In the public #dash-core-group channel, available for all members to see, the best threads are here:

Ryan responding to comments:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/855521238814687232/863473697465696307
Pasta stating that we lost a key dev:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/855521238814687232/867497946505543691
Quantum Explorer stating how we lost this key dev (good thing Quantum Explorer is CTO now!):
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/855521238814687232/867650849194115092

2) If you do verify and join the private #mno channel, here are the most eye-catching posts from the channel:

Beginning of the community discussions after the podcast: https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/523262303433523200/865945328091791440
Ryan Taylor's first response:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/523262303433523200/866207901684727829
Mark Mason:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/523262303433523200/866207901684727829
Ryan Taylor:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/523262303433523200/866353737752772638
Mark Mason:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/523262303433523200/866767207434420244
I speak up as a Dash Trust Protector regarding Ryan's leadership:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/523262303433523200/867041393502978058
A well-known former Dash Trust Protector speaks up supporting my statement:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/523262303433523200/867116422211436574

3) Andy Freer, Quantum Explorer and readme (key dapp developer) have a constructive discussion on Dash Platform in Discord #thunderdome (public channel).:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/496635238995197952/868471270503743498

4) Andy Freer's Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/oovqho/announcing_rion_gull_as_new_dash_incubator_po/

A significant number of the Discord community are publicly and privately calling for splitting up the current single DCG compensation proposal package in two, or by DCG dev/tech and non dev/tech compensations, to improve the accountability of DCG's non-dev side (e.g. DCG CEO, Biz Dev and Marketing). What are your thoughts on this?

Will try to keep posting more information in this thread that comes out of Discord. Similarly, I will try to post key Forum posts into Discord, which is unfortunately not publicly searchable. As a Dash Trust Protector, I want to make sure MNOs and community members outside of Discord are kept up to date to keep communications open on this important matter.

Thank you,

Hilawe

Edit: I added 3) and 4) to include comments by Andy Freer
 
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vazaki3

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I knew it, and I predicted it. Sooner or later, not only you will vote the numbers, but you will be forced to vote them with sliders.


The question "how much the politicians should be paid." is not a correct question.
The correct question is "how much the politicians should be paid, as a percentage of the total budget, and what are the percentages you vote for other government expenditures?" .
The citizents must have a clear view that the more they pay for a government expenditure the less remains for the rest government expenditures. And this cannot be seen when you ask them separate questions for each expenditure. You have to ask them for all the expenditures together, and with the help of sliders similar to the below.
 

vazaki3

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If you're interested, first join the Dash Discord ...
Join Dash Discord? Thats a Joke! I am still banned there (as I am still banned here in dashtalk, too)

<POLL HISTORY>
Should DCG's Compensation Proposal Be Split Between DCG Dev/Tech and non DCG Dev/Tech?
Yes
Votes: 1 -- 100.0% vazaki3
No
Votes: 0 -- 0.0%
Not sure yet
Votes: 0 -- 0.0%
Total voters 1
This poll will close: Aug 10, 2021.
</POLL HISTORY>
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Dunno why it always goes on in discord, I never use it because I don't like the format. I can't be the only one.

I certainly understand why DCG should be split but for me, I want to see see Dash Platform get it's own team and funding / proposal. A lot of people seem to think Dash Platform will only need marginal development / maintenance after release, I completely disagree. It's like saying amazon stopped working on AWS. Even if Dash Platform was perfect (highly unlikely), it would still need an ongoing developer hub (beyond incubator) to grow the ecosystem to massive proportions.
 
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soia

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Of course it should be split. It's obvious that Ryan Taylor is incompetent for his position (and most people that he ever hired), he should have left after an alt36 fiasco. But it's all talk, I guess we have to wait until Dash leaves top100 and Ryan will say so long and thanks for all the fish.
 

Hilawe

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GrandMasterDash: yes Discord is not everyone's bag like you said. That's why it's important to cross-post for key issues like this so people can at least read the important posts before leaving again.

I also agree that Platform MVP is just the beginning and will still need significant development and support after the Q1 2021 release.

Edit: I just don't know if all the funding support should still come from DCG or not, years down the road. Or if it should come from another DFO? That's TBD for now.
 
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Hilawe

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@vazaki3 You're unbanned now on Dash Discord (staydashy.com) with view-only privileges as we discussed privately. This handle is now unbanned: demo#9028. First join the server and I'll assign you the role.
 
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vazaki3

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@vazaki3 You're unbanned now on Dash Discord (staydashy.com) with view-only privileges as we discussed privately. This handle is now unbanned: demo#9028. First join the server and I'll assign you the role.
Thank you. I can now read the public discord links you posted!
 
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vazaki3

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I can't see anything. If I need an account then I guess it's not public.
Yes, you need an account in discord in order to see the "public" discord links.
I hate discord, but I have an account because many people from the community are there.

If you are interesting in whatever public discord link posted above by Hilawe, I could copy-pasted the content here for you to read it. Or send the content to you in a private message.
 
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Geert

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We're basically in the midst of civil war here. Everyone who values DCG should leave the "Dash Discord" and only discuss things here. I personally don't believe there is much hope, but at least that is something. I took down my last masternode today.
 

GrandMasterDash

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Yes, you need an account in discord in order to see the "public" discord links.
I hate discord, but I have an account because many people from the community are there.

If you are interesting in whatever public discord link posted above by Hilawe, I could copy-pasted the content here for you to read it. Or send the content to you in a private message.
It might get a bit messy posting it all here, maybe create a new thread. If you send pm then it won't get widely read.
 

Geert

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You don't need read anything by Hilawe. Here's the deal. A group of community members want DCG dismantled. They want core dev to be run by Andy's Incubator and they want the marketing to be run by Mark Mason, Mastermined, and Joel Valenzuela (DashForce). For those of you who need a picture, here it is...
.
pinata3.jpg
 
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vazaki3

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It might get a bit messy posting it all here, maybe create a new thread. If you send pm then it won't get widely read.
1) In the public #dash-core-group channel, available for all members to see, the best threads are here:
Ryan responding to comments:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/855521238814687232/863473697465696307
babygiraffe07/10/2021

Like I said already, I'm not arguing whether or not DFN offers value to the community and whether or not we are worse off for not having it. That has no connection whatsoever to what I'm saying. What I am saying is that the specific audience "institutional investor" is not consuming content like that. Honestly, they are hardly consuming any "crypto media" that might result from that coverage. They mostly talk to each other, a select set of analysts, institutional data sources... So we need to be talking directly to those people (preferably face to face) to get our fair share of their attention, and build their trust in the project. In terms of "crypto media" they tend not to pick up articles on their own. They need to be pitched. That is a PR function and mostly helps Dash reach retail investors, which are also important certainly. Back in 2016-2018, we had a series of professional PR firms serving the network, with ~6 people assigned to our account at any one time (note they were shared across clients, but the team sizes enabled a high rate of pitching capacity in bursts as needed). We haven't had that for several years, and I think the network underappreciates the importance of PR, especially in a very crowded market with tons of noise. So we need to focus more on rising above the noise with retail investors and institutional investors... but the path to each is very different.

babygiraffe07/10/2021
I've been checking with Mark periodically on the status, but it has been several weeks since I last asked. He will need to provide the latest. I believe things were getting close last I heard. I don't think that is needed to move forward, though. There are a lot of resources I've been leveraging, ranging from personal connections to sources like Messari to identify potential targets.

babygiraffe07/10/2021
Yes, I think we do relatively well retaining our existing community, but we have not done as well reaching new audiences. This is a big focus of Arden's, and she's been doing a lot to help us understand our existing users, where they come from, and who would be a good audience for us to target that are not current users. She is being very systematic about building data, optimizing the funnel for new users, and building plans based on that BEFORE going out and spending a bunch of money on marketing. She's making sure our marketing dollars will be spent efficiently. She'll share a lot more about what she's been working on during the quarterly, but some things are long-term. For example, changing Google search results takes a long time for their algorithms to start presenting new content, even after a "fix" is made. But the sooner we correct those things, the sooner more positive and less negative items will come up when searching for Dash, which should improve our conversion rates. That's just one example where the results may lag the actions being taken, but that's all the more reason to address them right away, even if not super visible / immediate result.

babygiraffe07/11/2021
Nothing but bitcoin backports... lol. DKG, LLMQs, LLMQ-based InstantSend (made it scalable to all transactions), ChainLocks, MN reallocation via blockchain governance, Deterministic MN list, special transactions, Dash Investment Foundation (research and formation funded by DAO), overtaking BTC at the point of sale in Venezuela... I could go on. And that's before we unleash platform. No, we are not just like Litecoin. We have a very compelling story to tell... and I've seen the reaction firsthand from telling it.
dashfriend07/21/2021
My question for DCG: https://www.dashcentral.org/p/dash-incubator-2021-q2 mentions multiple times multiple devs leaving DCG. Who are these devs that have left DCG? And is https://www.dash.org/dcg/ still up to date?

pasta | keybase.io/pasta07/21/2021
Cleaned up junk in this channel. Please avoid this in the future.

pasta | keybase.io/pasta07/21/2021
I can only speak to the Core-Dev team. Codablock and Dustinface are neither actively contributing to Dash Core and are not on payroll. The current core dev team consists of myself, UdjinM6, Virgile, Pravin, Munky and Kittywhiskers. Additionally on Sept 1st Ody is joining the team. Kittywhiskers is not a member of DCG but is a community contributor paid through the incubator. I have also been in talks with two other people to contribute in the community contributor role. One (gabriel) has posted two PRs (and had one merged). The other I just spoke with today.
Quantum Explorer stating how we lost this key dev (good thing Quantum Explorer is CTO now!):
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/855521238814687232/867650849194115092
dashfriend07/22/2021
@pasta | keybase.io/pasta Thank you for responding in regards to the core dev team. I'm looking forward to hearing from @Quantumexplorer in regards to the other teams.


Quantumexplorer07/22/2021
I just woke up so it's happening now.



dashfriend07/22/2021
@Ernesto_Contreras What is the position of DCG on https://ec.europa.eu/finance/docs/law/210720-proposal-amld6_en.pdf? Doesn't this proposal threaten the existence of Dash at least within the EU? Maybe @babygiraffe or Glenn have more on this.


Quantumexplorer07/22/2021
No, we did not retain him. The problem without going into too much detail stemmed from a few issues. First by the time the proposal was made he had already signed with other project. The dev in question really cares about his word, he said he was starting with other company, and didn't want to break that. While I was trying to make him an offer he couldn't refuse with the fund, I couldn't actually promise it was going to pass, which left him some uncertainty and ultimately he didn't want to break his word for something that was uncertain. I would like to say that it was a wake up call in terms of hiring, after he left we had 2 devs in core team, we now have 5, with a 6th underway already signed for September. As a team can't grow too quickly and also because we want to mainly focus on hiring in other developer teams we will only be actively searching for 1 more c++ dev for now.

EmotionalTerrorist07/22/2021
why does the platform team only have 3 devs?

Quantumexplorer07/22/2021
They do not only have 3 devs, I will be making a reply shortly.


Quantumexplorer07/22/2021
5 full time, 2 part time. I agree it's not good enough, we should have 2 more very shortly, as well as technical product owner.
 
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vazaki3

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It might get a bit messy posting it all here, maybe create a new thread. If you send pm then it won't get widely read.
3) Andy Freer, Quantum Explorer and readme (key dapp developer) have a constructive discussion on Dash Platform in Discord #thunderdome (public channel).:
https://discord.com/channels/484546513507188745/496635238995197952/868471270503743498
Fabio07/24/2021
After reading the comments, I'm not sure I really want to watch the quarterly call. I am already pissed. Until when has platform be delayed this time? Having had 2 proposals myself and having followed the D-A-CH embassy very closely from the ground, I am very annoyed at the double standard we display towards DCG compared to other proposals. I really think it's time DCG gets some of the heat every normal PO gets.
This level of borderline dishonesty is enfuriating. I don't like listening to marketing lies and I am asking myself how long I have already been doing so. Does DCG believe themselves what they say and are just always honestly wrong or is this darker?
How does one fire Ryan? A proposal?

Fabio07/24/2021
For the records (and football fans): I respect Ryan. He is like Jogi Löw, Germanys ex football manager. He won the worldcup (=professionalised DASH in the early days) but he stayed far too long and did not make sure to have a good successor but kept making himself "indispensable" (= bad leadership in my book). (I've been in Dash since 2014, to whom it may concern)

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
@Fabio I think DCG is getting heat. I'm the new (interim, maybe permanent CTO). My first objective as CTO is to make it abundantly clear where we are in our roadmap.
And to greatly increase transparency on the development side of things. We just had a successful release of platform v20, which to date was the most complicated release since v14 of core I would say.
Of course that's not to mainnet, but we're getting there. I'm going on Joel's talk show on Friday and going to do my best to paint a good picture of where we are.
The main thing is as I'm taking on CTO, I don't want to promise our roadmap anymore, instead I want to show the exact tasks that we are working on. Then when each task is complete to explain to our community, even if it's technical, why we are doing this.
There will still be a roadmap, don't get me wrong, it's just that after delay and delay I feel like we need more understanding about the difficulty of the tasks involved and the fact that we ARE solving them. A lot of the stuff we do HAS NEVER been done before so we don't really have a reference to go by time wise.
I also don't think it's dishonesty on the part of Ryan and Bob before me. I think Ryan and Bob before me genuinely believed that we will launch in the time frames they provide after talking with dev teams that were not so great at giving estimates.
As we get closer to the goal however... well... it's a little harder and harder to be way off.
I bet though that a lot of people don't actually know where we are compared to the goal.
So me saying we are much closer might be meaningless.
That's why I really want to lay everything bare for everyone to see and to come to their own conclusions. There's also a few tasks that would have great benefit to be in our MVP, and I want to poll our community at some point later this year to ask if we should delay a little to include each.
Things like a proper name distribution.
We have a new product owner joining on Monday, he's a technical product owner and I think someone who will be greatly helpful to me in the task of creating a list of all tasks left to MVP (and a few extra).
It might take up to a month to have this list (unless the guy isn't good, which I doubt since he seemed great in interviews), I'm not sure how quickly it can be done by him while he's just starting. But I do promise it will get done as soon as possible.

Doeke07/24/2021
Thanks QE. Your feedback is refreshing and much appreciated. I think this is exactly the kind of transparency the community longed for.

andyfreer07/24/2021
What's your position on restoring effective DAPI access for community developers. Is that before, during or after MVP (or no plans).

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
I personally only know of one bug that is currently being worked on, which means that they are currently already assigned to team members to fix. I think we are at a point, now at v20, where our focus is shifting from mostly writing new features to spending half our time on new features and half our time fixing or replacing code that we initially wrote as a proof of concept. I think the latter will greatly increase the stability of the system in the coming months. On top of that we will try to hire an extra developer based on the feedback given who's main responsibility will be the Javascript SDK.

andyfreer07/24/2021
Ok... can we clarify. What i'm asking is, is it a requirement of Platform releases to support community dev access (as it was on EvoNet) in the sense that it will be a working product they can use again, and what is the roadmap for that, either in time or in phase (as I mention aboved) now you just gained control of that decision / responsibility
whats the official DCG position

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
Yes, but we only will commit to supporting already existing features on JS SDK on the day of platform releases (no regressions). Platform releases should never block development that happened on any previous version from now on. However some features of a newly released version might not be immediately available. V20 is a prime example of this. In v20 we have a proof system where data can be completely verified with threshold sigs. I will be covering what an achievement this is in the following week. However we released with only our Java SDK having verified this to be working, and without it even being officially released in that SDK. Android should come this upcoming week, iOS maybe this week or the following. JS will be before the v21 release. Until then system can work the same as in V19 if you disregard proofs.


andyfreer07/24/2021
" I will be covering what an achievement this is in the following week" ok just on this comment, I wouldn't be boasting about anything within Platform right now, when it's effectively been allowed to become a broken product for its target market for the last 6 months, effectively pulling the rug from large community of developers the Network has been supporting and funding highly.
unless of course that basic function has been restored

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
I was not in charge during that period. And when you started incubator I did say to you that platform was not ready.

andyfreer07/24/2021
Don't remember that. Obvs DCG released evonet with public access for developers. never was it stated that DCG strategy was that developers shouldn't use it

andyfreer07/24/2021
so by this comment are you saying now that Platform is too early for developers?

andyfreer07/24/2021
yes I thought i made it clear im not holding you responsible for the regression of the API function. Im asking now because you're the person with control of this as of yesterday

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
No, I'm saying that it was too early for developers, as was made apparent by things failing on people. I can't promise that v20 will be 100% stable either, but I do think that it's going to be a lot better than before.

andyfreer07/24/2021
Ok I mean it was working and the network and the devs were happy. So not sure why you're saying this... or that it's relevant now anyway
Just looking for like real simple straight answer - is DCG gonna prioritize community dev access to Platform (meaning restore its basic functions and maintain those across releases)
obvs if you release a new version and its got breaking changes thats fine (meaning code changes will make the dev code work). But right now its just broken (meaning no changes will make dev code work)

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
Here's the official answer : the JS, iOS and Android SDKs for platform are now all on the same level of priority. Extra work will be going into the JS SDK to raise it to the same level as the two others.
Eventually I would also like to expand this to add a python SDK as well. <- not official, just something I want to do, as I think it would be beneficial.

andyfreer07/24/2021
"JS, iOS and Android SDKs for platform are now all on the same level of priority" excellent. and so because iOS and Android are required for DashPay, having JS at the same priority means its gonna work again, right?

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
We are all reliant on individuals correct? I can only promise that more ressources will go into making things work better and be more stable. I can't completely promise that this will resolve all issues, but I do think that by adding more ressources to fixing the problems the problems will go away.

xkcd07/24/2021
@Fabio Honestly, you should watch the Q call, there is a lot more going that just evo and also I want to remind you that we are currently activating about a dozen new opcodes similar to what BCH has to make L1 far more useful, eg SLP, so evo is just one part of what DCG delivers to us and it isn't even the part that brings home the bacon, it's a skunk works, the real shit is running perfectly smoothly and getting a level up as Pasta and QE bring on more talented devs.

andyfreer07/24/2021
I think we need the same standard / provision for DAPI access as we do for anything else we release, needs to work to minimum level. Today its not, so i'd assume normal thing to do would be in your position work out how to get that on track. But once it is, don't see how that would be any different to any other protocol product

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
In laymans terms Andy there will be 2 devs on JS client code (1.5 then 2 as soon as we can hire an extra), 0.5 devs on iOS, and 1 dev in Java till the end of the year.
Just for the client side libraries.

andyfreer07/24/2021
if you're saying that right now you don't know situation / don't know how long to get this working ofc I appreciate that 100%. What im saying is seems like official DCG support for this product has been lacking (actually practically withdrawn) and looking for assurances that that's now recognized and the API will fixed and working (and estimate how long or at which stage that might happen).

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
Well we just released v20. I want to make sure v20 is working 100% well for incubator, I know there are some incubator devs still on v18 just because they can not get anything else to work.
To that extent we need incubator devs to tell us what is actually wrong with V20 once we are ready for them to upgrade. Right now we are fixing a bug in walletLib that we discovered the same day of release, when that is done we will make an official announcement inside Incubator that v20 is ready to be used by incubator devs. If incubator devs have issues at all in the week following that announcement fixing those issues will be our priority. However... after that, if someone runs into an issue, we will add that issue to our backlog of tasks to do and only tackle it once we are done with our current epics. Switching focus too often has a very big cost and I want to minimize that cost to have a faster time to market.
I have a lot of processes to codify over the next coming weeks, on top of dip writing, CTO responsibilities, development work and training of new devs. My point basically is if I'm not doing something perfectly it's just because I have a lot on my plate during this transition period. We will be increasing our jobs postings as well

andyfreer07/24/2021
It's good you're hear talking. It's providing much needed transparency and accountability

andyfreer07/24/2021
As far as I know, a dApp today can only be ran on a local 0.18 devnet, and it's quite hard to setup, Incubator's had many devs onboard who can't do that

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
I don't want to dwell too much on the past, we both know what was wrong.

andyfreer07/24/2021
What your saying is positive and good to hear. But the reason I came in is was kinda looking for an official strategy position. I mean, e.g. in Incubator, they have to say what they're gonna do (in Rules / Proposals) and then be measured on it, because the idea is they're working for and accountable to the network. In this case i'm looking for an official general position on quality of API (is it officially supposed to work, and when, now, MVP) - because it's not shown in the last roadmap or been talked about.
The reason is because if there's not even an official position, how can DCG be measured on if it is / isn't delivering something. And in this case, future of Incubator (and the wider Platform dev ecosystem) is kinda dependant on
but I don't want to drag you over coals. What you said above is positive

Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
I agree, however all I can promise at this point is that more ressources will go into JS client than any other client. I can't promise how well people will do their work in the future, especially people who we haven't even hired yet.

andyfreer07/24/2021
ok, thanks for the feedback.

xkcd07/24/2021



Quantumexplorer07/24/2021
He told me in person he needs a complete break for a few months, and the temptation of checking discord is too much. He'll be back.
 
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vazaki3

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In short, Quantumexplorer's and andyfreer's design seems bullshit.
Serious persons should not trust cryptocurrencies that are based on a virtual machines (like Java or JS is)
.
Because the one who controls the
virtual machine, controls the crypto.
Thats the reason the serious developers are not attracted by their design.

There is no significant community of developers in Dash.
The Masternode Operators/Voters support a Dash core Team (DCG) that feeds a bunch of monthly paid head developers who behave like civil servants. Developers who tend to do either (almost) nothing, or do very few, or even worst irrelevant to what the dash community really needs, all the above compared of course to the amount they received and keep receiving as salary. Their current average monthly salary is 247500/30=8233 USD, as long as 30 persons are paid members of the DCG.
As a result of all the above, Dash coin that used to be the 6th coin in coinmarketcap. is now the 54th coin and keep falling.
Serious crypto code should also be FORMALY VERIFIED (like they do in Tezos or in Cardano cryptocurrencies)
 
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Kanuuker

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Mar 30, 2017
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We're supposed to be the leaders in decentralization, we don't just give it lip service like most other projects. Any chance we get of further decentralizing, we need to take it. I think DCG should be broken up into at least 2 distinct DFO's that fall under the umbrella of the Trust.
 

AgnewPickens

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We're supposed to be the leaders in decentralization, we don't just give it lip service like most other projects. Any chance we get of further decentralizing, we need to take it. I think DCG should be broken up into at least 2 distinct DFO's that fall under the umbrella of the Trust.
Core Technology and Business Development & Marketing. Those two aspects of DCG have not meshed well, they need to be separated out.
 

AgnewPickens

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That being said, Arden had a big job to jump into, Fernando was an absentee CMO, I have heard stories, I know he was overwhelmed
at times with his workload, I think that is because he was trying to be both a Core Tech CMO & a BizDev CMO. My two duffs. We really
should consider budgeting these two incongruent tasks separately. I was glad to see @QuantumExplorer (Discord handle) step up as new CTO,
he has has been very communicative.
 
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GrandMasterDash

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Jul 12, 2015
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In short, Quantumexplorer's and andyfreer's design seems bullshit.
Serious persons should not trust cryptocurrencies that are based on a virtual machines (like Java or JS is)
.
Because the one who controls the
virtual machine, controls the crypto.
Thats the reason the serious developers are not attracted by their design.



Serious crypto code should also be FORMALY VERIFIED (like they do in Tezos or in Cardano cryptocurrencies)
Has Cardano finally released their smart contracts and with formal verification?

I'm not sure it's fair to judge a VM against a formal verification system. Surely you can add formal verification to any VM. I thought there was talk of possibly using WASM with dash. My hope for WASM is that there could be some collaborative work with other projects such as beam.
 
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vazaki3

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Has Cardano finally released their smart contracts and with formal verification?
I dont know.
Cardano design is not ideal too.
They use JS for their Daedalus linux wallet . They use nix to built it.
Daedalus Languages: JavaScript 84.2% , SCSS 8.5% , Gherkin 2.7% , Nix 1.9% , Haskell 1.4%, Python 0.7% , Other 0.6%
Daedalus is the front end, but behind there is their core wallet written in Haskell.
Cardano node is also written in Haskell.


I'm not sure it's fair to judge a VM against a formal verification system. Surely you can add formal verification to any VM. I thought there was talk of possibly using WASM with dash.
My great concern is the updates of the virtual machine. The virtual machine coders can target your IP and send a troyan update only to you, and that way compromise your system (and your money). You cannot prove to the others that the core developers of the virtual machine did that, because the update is designed and send only to your IP, while the other IPs are not compromised.

So you have to do a formal verification initialy, but also in every update of the virtual machine. Thats too much job, so better not having a virtual machine, and stand on your own feet. For the safety of your cryptomoney, use a compiled language that is formally verified only once, during the compile. Or even better, for the safety of your crypto money, use assembly . I didnt know about WASM, but in case it is a real assembly, it could be a nice alternative.

My hope for WASM is that there could be some collaborative work with other projects such as beam.
beam.mw said:
Smart Contracts AKA Shaders
The Beam Virtual Machine, with WASM execution, makes confidential Dapps possible. The Contract Shader encapsulates the business logic running in Beam nodes, while the App Shader takes care of the presentation layer, making applications easily installable into Beam wallets.
An important thing to note is that the team is not focused on making Beam a means to exchange, but it is intended more as a store of value. The scalability at the moment or in the near future will not enable BEAM to be used as a global digital currency. They are however looking at improving performance by researching scalability solutions, like Bitcoin’s Lightning Network and ThunderCore’s Thunderella protocol.
 
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Hilawe

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Apr 24, 2017
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So you have to do a formal verification initialy, but also in every update of the virtual machine. Thats too much job, so better not having a virtual machine, and stand on your own feet. For the safety of your cryptomoney, use a compiled language that is formally verified only once, during the compile. Or even better, for the safety of your crypto money, use assembly . I didnt know about WASM, but in case it is a real assembly, it could be a nice alternative.
Yes the plan is to use WASM like Cosmos or Polkadot do with VMs. This is off-topic, however, and would be nice to have as a separate thread with devs replying to your concerns. I also want to see answers to some of your development-related questions/concerns.
 

anilkayn

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I dont know why it always goes on in discord, I never use it because I don't like the format. I can't be the only one.
 

Hilawe

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I dont know why it always goes on in discord, I never use it because I don't like the format. I can't be the only one.
It's unfortunate that we don't have a way of sharing data back and forth yet.
 

Sven

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I just posted a response on Discord to a request for feedback. Fits here too:

Like many old-timers, I often insist price is not the most important, but since DCG is the largest known regular seller of Dash, they put pressure on the price and should at the very least provide enough value to the network to offset price dips from budget sales because that money comes out of everyones' pockets. I understand how overall market trends can sweep up Dash. But having DCG should give us a competitive edge vs. other cryptos who have to rely on donations and corporate sponsors. Let's use the DASH/BTC, the DASH/BCH or the Dash/LTC rate (or any other direct competitor) as an approximation of over/underperformance. Across the board, the long-term trend is down.

Normally, at a truly decentralized project, it would be near impossible to blame anyone for it. But we have created a Dash Core Group, who, for all practical intents and purposes, acts as if it *is* Dash. Dash.org lists DCG as "the team". AFAIK, only DCG members represent themselves with a @dash.org email address. Ryan has been labeled "Dash CEO" in more articles than I care to remember.

So, for better or for worse, DCG will have to take a good chunk of responsibility. And its performance, at any corporate organization, would long have been grounds for replacing the management team. If you don't deliver, if you don't create value, you need to make room for someone or something who can.

We're not in a corporate world. You can't just launch a CEO search and bring in an "experienced executive" for something like Dash. In fact, we shouldn't even have a CEO. I'm so tired of explaining in various groups and forums that, yes, Dash is decentralized ... only to have stuff like this thrown at me:

Screen Shot 2021-08-04 at 20.56.11.png

But I also don't want to call for dissolving DCG and throw out the baby with the bath water. I think there are some very good reasons to have a degree of centralization. A well coordinated large-budget cross-channel marketing campaign, for example, is more effective than a few dozen scattered amateur attempts. And I really really do not want to end up in endless tug-of-wars and chain splits like in BCH.

But we should not let DCG continue business as usual. For me, the string of failures is long, but the last quarterly call was the last straw.

These calls to me always have an air of a corporate puff piece. Everything is awesome and burning issues get swept under the rug. Except, those issues have become the elephant in the room and elephants don't fit under a rug any longer.

Economic transactions are up. Isn't it great? Not a word about the recent discovery that most of those transactions appear to be inorganic. Never mind Lightning Network, BCH, LTC - every competitor except BTC, which is at its limit - all grew much MUCH more YoY. If you're growing slower than the market, you're really falling behind. Ryan is calling it "That was quite a strong result there."

658.jpg

Platform is delayed. Again. Since 2018. If it had come out in 2018 as promised, even as an MVP, we could've wiped the floor with the whole market. Could've, would've, should've. Now it's going to be 2022, we have dropped off the radar of all but the most diehard fans, investors lost interest, Dash, the payment coin, is being removed from payment processors with thousands of connected stores (e.g. CoinGate, Coinify), crypto user names already exist elsewhere (even if not as technically elegant) and there are countless new competitors - PoS and smart-contract coins, improved fiat payment systems and even CBDCs on the horizon. 2022. But if you didn't carefully study the slides, you wouldn't have known. The CTO, when talking through them, conveniently overlooked this for the community most pressing question.

Ah yes, the CTO. If it wasn't for the quarterly calls, you'd be excused for thinking we don't have one. AFAICT he distinguished himself mostly by his absence from the community. OK fine, not everyone is all social. If he had quietly delivered, nobody would say anything. But he had not. Under his tenure, we stumbled from one delay to another. And now he's throwing in the towel after sneaking in yet another one. What a farewell gift! Leaving Dash with his biggest project unfinished to run a startup. Did we learn that from the call? Nope. Not a word from Bob. No reasons or circumstances from Ryan. "To pursue an excellent opportunity" was all we heard. What opportunity could be more excellent than revolutionizing the world of payments? It was Quantum Explorer, who shed some more light on it later on Discord. Now we're left wondering why a Dash C-level sees more potential in a dating app for a church(!), rather than finishing what we all think could be the biggest accomplishment of his career.

Time to find a permanent replacement and an orderly transition? None. Gone within 9 days after the call. Just like that. "We've known about it for a little while" says Ryan. Why haven't we, the community?

Arden is explaining the foundation she built for future marketing efforts. Great work, right? Back pats all around! For me, the key part was: "When I came into DCG, I went to look for all of the data ... and unfortunately I had come into a situation where that foundation had not yet been built." For years we had a Chief Marketing Officer, an even higher title than Arden's, hinting at an even higher experience / performance level. What was he doing?? At the conference in Uster, I was with Fernando at a break-out group about affiliate marketing. He seemed helpless and in way over his head, asking the most basic questions. I remember wondering "THIS is our CMO??" How could this misappointment be allowed to persist for so long?

Now Ryan is talking about institutional investors and is amazed how none of them know about Dash. Exciting opportunity identified! Yes, great, but why are we now learning that DCG declined getting involved with this target group when approached earlier? And how could it get so far that we're so unknown?

"Oh, we had no marketing and biz dev budget! The bear market, y'know?" Hmm, but why didn't we? How could the core team miss out on the epic opportunity to fill a Scrooge McDuck-size war chest in 2017/18? "Uhmm, well, we didn't have the corporate setup for that" is usually the answer. You know what? I don't buy it. They did have budget proposals back then and if you have the setup to take funds from the treasury, you have the setup to keep funds from the treasury. Possibly I'm wrong here, but I haven't seen this explained conclusively and until I do, I'm going with "biggest management blunder in Dash's history".

We're still feeling the consequences today. An extra incentive fund had to be set up to help retain a key developer (and others in the future). The developer still left. "after he left we had 2 devs in core team, we now have 5" says QE. With the core dev team down to a mere two at times, OF COURSE platform will be delayed. Why wasn't more focus put earlier on hiring and retention? Why did we never learn any of this? And the newly added three still have to prove their mettle; whether they can really replace Codablock and Dustinface remains to be seen. And again, it leaves the nagging question what drove those two guys to leave yards from the finish line? Was it really financial reasons only? Wouldn't a dev take pride in releasing a project he'd been working on for years? Could this hint at a lack of confidence that there ever will be a decent release? Or at low morale and dissatisfaction with DCG leadership?

I don't even want get into Andy's post. Suffice to say it would have deserved more attention than a curt Q&A remark.

Bottom line: The concept of one monolithic DCG has shown to be ineffective. It follows Niskanen's budget-maximizing model a bit too closely. And it leads to dying out of grassroots efforts.

I help mod the Telegram chat and if I had a duff for every time I heard "Dash must, the team should, ..." it'd be enough for a masternode. "Me? Why should *I* do anything? Dash has a paid team!" Night and day compared to, say, some BCH groups where there's a real can-do spirit and people just make things happen.

So what would I like to see?

First and foremost, more transparency. Brutal honesty, even if things aren't so rosy. No more puff pieces. Live call-in Q&A at the quarterly calls, not just prepared questions. I want to be able to probe into what was just presented.

Second, make the accounting more verifiable. I want to see how the numbers shown in the Q reports match up with the treasury payouts. How many Dash were received during the period? When, at which rate were how many Dash converted to USD? Fiat vs. Dash holdings today? Show me how supplementary funding requests (marketing, biz dev etc.) feed into the respective budgets and what those budgets are actually used for so that I can match it against promises in the proposals.

Then, the leadership. We have a COO too. Besides MC'ing the Q calls, what is he doing day to day? I have no idea. So I'll talk more about the CEO. I don't want to demonize Ryan. Many decisions were made in great uncertainty and it's easy for someone like me to come in with the benefit of hindsight and talk smack about everything. I can tell Ryan cares deeply about Dash. He is a good manager with impressive connections, who brought many good things to Dash - the trust, the DIF, I believe even CrayPay came through his initiative. He brought a professionalism to Dash that is lacking in most other crypto projects. I see his strengths mostly on the legal side, investor relations, business development.

Only DCG staff can tell how good he is as a people manager. To get an unfiltered view, I'd like the Trust Protectors to do a postmortem with the people who left DCG. There seem to be a lot, going back to Chuck Williams, who presented Evolution with great enthusiasm in 2017. High staff turnover is not a good sign.

What I can tell is that Ryan isn't the charismatic visionary with the ability to electrify people, the public face that I'd like Dash to have. He also doesn't have a track record building tech startups. I see those as contributing factors to Dash's inferior performance. Rapid iteration, delivering on a shoestring, test, measure, adapt - I don't think it's in Ryan's blood. "The Lean Startup" by Eric Ries could be some inspiration. I also know that you can't hire such a person externally. The passion this requires has to be genuine, it has to come from within. I can't think of anyone else with the right skillset in the Dash universe currently. Perhaps the solution is not to put anyone on the pedestal as *the* CEO.

That leads to my final point. I've long struggled with the dilemma of centralized efficiency and direction vs. decentralized resilience and creativity. Now I just saw this forum post. I think that's a good idea. Have Ryan head up the business arm and have a techie (QE?) head up the development arm. Separate their funding (ideally still with only one accountant to minimize cost). Set measurable performance targets or OKRs for any C-level or equivalent and make them public. Elevate the visibility of other teams, e.g. Incubator, Dash Next etc. to make it clear Dash is not = DCG.

In such scenario, would Dash be less attractive to institutional investors without one clear leader figure? Would developers, without direction by the business side, just develop things because they're cool, not because the market wants them? I'll leave that up for discussion.
 
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xkcd

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Feb 19, 2017
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XpoZXRfr2iFxWhfRSAK3j1jww9xd4tJVez
You don't need read anything by Hilawe. Here's the deal. A group of community members want DCG dismantled. They want core dev to be run by Andy's Incubator and they want the marketing to be run by Mark Mason, Mastermined, and Joel Valenzuela (DashForce). For those of you who need a picture, here it is...
.
View attachment 10781
It's interesting that you should omit Sidem from the piñata image, since he is the architect of this plan.
It's also curious that he didn't separate core team (L1) from the evo team (L2) and thus is using the L1 mob as human shields from the shit fuckery of the Evo team.
 

vazaki3

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"Should DCG's Compensation Proposal Be Split Between DCG Dev/Tech and non DCG Dev/Tech? "
Regarding the above question, I change my vote to the question to "other".


I think the question tries to divide the MNOs. But you could ask the same question in a way the MNOs are not divided and eachone's opinion is not excluded.

To do this, you need to vote the numbers, vote with sliders, and use tree voting.

Suppose I were DCG this is how I would formulate the question:

Dear MNOs, as DCG I want 100 Dash. Please vote the following questions and follow the poll tree.
POLL_1: Do you want X dash to be spend for DCG?
a) NO
b) YES
POLL_2: IF YES then vote the number X​
POLL_3: After voting X , then please vote on how the amount X should be distributed.​
a) The amount X should be distributed internally by DCG​
b) Vote with sliders, dedicate Y% of the amount for DCG Dev/Tech​

Lets analyse an example on how we extract the result from the POLL3.

Suppose X is voted to be 100 dash and 2 operators voted into POLL3.
Operator1 has 10 masternodes and votes for the amount to be distributed internally.
Operator2 has 5 masternodes and votes for 30% to go to DCG Dev/Tech and the rest 70% to go to the non DCG Dev/Tech.

The result is , DCG is allowed to distribute internally 10X100/15 = 66.66 Dash
The rest 33.33 dash will be distributed, 0,3 X 33,33 = 9,99 Dash to DCG Dev/Tech and 0,7 X 33,33=23,33 dash to the non DCG Dev/Tech.

That way all the opinions are respected, and you dont have to divide the MNOS and exclude an opinion.


Although "other" is my real vote, in https://www.dashcentral.org/p/Decision-Proposal-Improve-DCG I vote YES because "other" is not offered as an option, and YES is to the good direction.
 
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