How are the individual developers paid out of the dev budget?

Biltong

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What is the actual process - Multi sig?

Need info for Proposal Evaluation Committee.. Thanx
 

TanteStefana

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Currently, each "expansion" of new employees is running on a separate proposal. The original developer's proposal was a token payment, and now we have an HR subcontractor or else new HR person evaluating fair market salaries. So I expect, possibly this pay period, that we will get all of this revamped.

I guess I haven't been much help, sorry.
 

Biltong

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Thanx Tante - At least you tried :)
Yep - I need the actual process: Budget to individual
Is their a sort of comptroller? that takes charge of the budget (how? where is it kept?) and splits it into individual payments (how? just a spreadsheet? then dash sent off to wallets?) What oversight is there for the comptroller (How? Who?)
 

jimbursch

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The Core Team is currently undergoing some reorganization:
We are presently undergoing a legal restructuring to provide a number of benefits to the network. It will likely take at least two months to complete this process.
so there may not be an answer to your questions until that process is completed.
 

Biltong

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Thanx for the headsup Jim ;)
 

xjones

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It would be a good idea for the Dash core group to make a policy right now that all salaries will be openly published. So everything you get paid goes into a public spreadsheet.

This is how it's done in almost all government agencies in the US and in many state universities in the US. If this is the official policy, then nobody is taken by surprise, and nobody gets embarrassed.

If the Dash core developers keep salaries confidential (as I think they currently do -- please point me to a published list with actual numbers if I'm mistaken), it will very hard to make them public later. People will have an expectation of privacy that will be hard to change.

It's a question of managing expectations. If your salary was public when you first got paid, you're already used to that, and you won't complain.

If it was kept private originally, you might object to it becoming public later.
 

tungfa

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".... all government agencies in the US"
i am not sure where the connection between your suggestions and Dash is tbh
we are a DAO
The budget for salaries is voted on , how that is spread between the individual Dev's and Core Team members
is an in-house decision / discussion
- all budgets / salaries and whatnot is held and shared from multisig accounts
- Ryan is finance (minister) and has the books

what company spreads they salaries in public ? nobody, as this would opens up individuals to trolling/ badmounthing and what not
(we have seen it in Dash before and there is no point in going back to it)
The Dash Core DAO Team is managing all funds and salaries as it always has.
 

Biltong

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Hi Tungfa
Thanx: ".. shared from multisig accounts" Great - that is what I needed to know. Last question: how many sigs? I assume 3? Ryan and who else? And how is the decision made on who holds the other 2? The PEC might well end up needing a similar system. Once there are 4 or more PEC members the possibility of corruption will creep in and I would like to avoid that - even just the perception that it's possible.
 
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Biltong

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".., as this would opens up individuals to trolling/ badmounthing and what not
(we have seen it in Dash before and there is no point in going back to it)....
This must be before I joined. Can you find/pm me a link to that thread? Would like to see what happened. I thought the PEC should be open about who earns what, but if it leads to **** - then maybe not.
 

tungfa

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Hi Tungfa
Thanx: ".. shared from multisig accounts" Great - that is what I needed to know. Last question: how many sigs? I assume 3? Ryan and who else? And how is the decision made on who holds the other 2? The PEC might well end up needing a similar system. Once there are 4 or more PEC members the possibility of corruption will creep in and I would like to avoid that - even just the perception that it's possible.
ryan fernando and such (i do not have the details on me tbh)
PEC - what is that ?
"This must be before I joined"
maybe - i have no link imo, it is somewhere out there on dashforum
 

Biltong

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Thanx Tungfa
PEC - sorry :rolleyes: - "Proposal Evaluation Committee" (if it ever gets off the ground)
 

David

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It would be a good idea for the Dash core group to make a policy right now that all salaries will be openly published. So everything you get paid goes into a public spreadsheet.

This is how it's done in almost all government agencies in the US and in many state universities in the US. If this is the official policy, then nobody is taken by surprise, and nobody gets embarrassed.

If the Dash core developers keep salaries confidential (as I think they currently do -- please point me to a published list with actual numbers if I'm mistaken), it will very hard to make them public later. People will have an expectation of privacy that will be hard to change.

It's a question of managing expectations. If your salary was public when you first got paid, you're already used to that, and you won't complain.

If it was kept private originally, you might object to it becoming public later.
I disagree. I currently work for a state university, and knowing everybody else's salary just leads to strife. "I do more work than soandso, but he is paid more. I'm going to complain/work less/sabotage/find a new job..."

I also don't think that replicating government is what we want to be doing! =)
 

Biltong

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Thanx David
Difficult one:
1) decentralized - everything open?
2) Decentralized some things hidden?
1 too idealistic? 2 open to centralization and/or corruption
Issue is controversial and potentially disruptive
My gut feel is leave well alone, but be very careful and as open as possible - do not become more secretive!
Spend time thinking on how to open up more - safely.
 

jimbursch

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I think the Core Team should be judged strictly on its output and let it handle internal matters in any way it sees fit. We don't need to see how the sausage is made as long as it is good sausage. And if it produces bad sausage, then we change the sausage-maker; we still don't need to see how it is made.

This is excepting the code, of course. The code has to be open source so it can be properly reviewed.
 

David

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Thanx David
Difficult one:
1) decentralized - everything open?
2) Decentralized some things hidden?
1 too idealistic? 2 open to centralization and/or corruption
Issue is controversial and potentially disruptive
My gut feel is leave well alone, but be very careful and as open as possible - do not become more secretive!
Spend time thinking on how to open up more - safely.
The network is decentralized; the Core Team is not. The Core Team is simply a contractor working for the benefit of the network, and the network could fire the team and hire a new one at any time.

Take the state government example given earlier. I work at a state university, so basically everything we do is "open sourced" since it's all public information. However, if we hire a contractor to put in a new phone line, that contractor isn't required to disclose any information about its internal workings.

I'm not saying that I'm against publishing Core Team salaries, just that there are two ways to look at it. I also think that "centralized" teams working for a decentralized project is perfectly fine, since the network can always fire that team at any time. Honestly, if Ryan decided to pay 99% of the salaries budget to himself and split the 1% between everybody else, what does it matter so long as the people employed by him are happy and continue to create quality work product?
 

Tallyho

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For what it's worth I agree that detailed disclosure isn't necessary. If you hire a construction company to build you an extension, you don't need to know how much the gaffer gets or how much the junior labourer gets, you only need to know the total you're paying to get the job done.
 

Biltong

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I went off topic. Interested in the process of payments, not who gets paid what. I understand that both Dash Force and the Dev's have a treasurer each. Is this correct? I assume each treasurer receives the whole budget and then splits and pays out the salaries/sub contracts?
 

xjones

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How much transparency Dash needs is always going to be debatable. I generally favor more transparency, many others favor opaqueness, and I'm sure the majority of people are somewhere in between. We don't need to decide this question in its entirety today.

However, the point I made should be recognized: However much transparency we want, the time to enable it is today. The longer we wait the harder it becomes.

So we should err in favor of too much rather than too little transparency. If we change our minds later, it will be a lot easier to decrease transparency than to increase it. Opaque organizations ferociously defend their opaqueness.
 

xjones

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For what it's worth I agree that detailed disclosure isn't necessary. If you hire a construction company to build you an extension, you don't need to know how much the gaffer gets or how much the junior labourer gets, you only need to know the total you're paying to get the job done.
I feel that this construction comparison is not a good one here.

Typically, this type of contract has a well-defined deliverable, and you have several or many potential contractors from which you can pick one, and there is a logical end to the contract when the extension has been built. And the result is easy to evaluate -- you can usually tell just by looking at it, or worst case you can hire another professional to tell you whether or not the extension has been properly built and then you can demand that the contractor fix any problem.

The Dash developers don't fit into this mold at all. There is no well-defined deliverable, we don't have many core developer teams from which we can pick one, there is no logical end to the development effort, and there's no easy way to tell if some other development team could have done much better at the same cost.

If you want to look at real-life examples, the Dash core developers are more like getting married. You can always replace your spouse, but it's a big hassle to do so, and you would rather just keep this one and make things work if you can. You will of course place in your trust in your spouse doing the right thing, but if they mysteriously disappear often with no explanation, or if your joint bank account balance keeps going down and they don't tell you how they're spending it, you will demand transparency.
 
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