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Don't understand Darksend

Discussion in 'PrivateSend Questions and Help' started by Bugeater, May 17, 2015.

  1. Bugeater

    Bugeater Member

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    Ok --- I am a newbie when it comes to digital currencies but I started with Bitcoin months ago, and decided to buy 1000 DASH and become a masternode as the idea of getting % back was cool to me.

    I bought 1300 DASH or so at ShapeShift (in four installments). But new to me, this says I cannot send unless I do Darksend. Is this correct?? I knew I had to send 1000 to another wallet and send it back or thought I did to get the 1000 sent in one transaction to be a masternode.

    So I try to do Darksend and I can get to 927 in my darksend balance, but for 2 days, cannot get higher. What am I doing wrong?

    --

    This amount of work has really turned me off and making me think of going back to Bitcoin or maybe trying Monero. Am I doing something wrong or is this really the work of running a DASH wallet that all must deal with?

    Please help!
     
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  2. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member
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    I'm not sure about Shapeshift's policies, but you most definitely can send Dash without using Darksend.

    I would contact support and see why that it is needed to use Darksend.

    This is a Shapeshift issue, not a Dash one.
     
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  3. thelazier

    thelazier Active Member

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    Bugeater
    I understand that you should follow the masternode guide and in Sent windows please uncheck Darksend checkbox on the bottom right and ignore the warning because you are going to send 1000 exact amount to make a valid masternode address.
    Which masternode guide are you following?
     
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  4. UdjinM6

    UdjinM6 Official Dash Dev
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    Hello and welcome! :)
    You definitely can send funds just like you do with bitcoins - just uncheck "Darksend" on "Send" tab. There is no need to mix funds to start Masternode.

    EDIT: thelaizer was faster :)
     
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  5. raganius

    raganius cryptoPag.com
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    Yes, as said above, you can send funds without Darksend by unchecking the option

    [​IMG]


    There are some great Masternode setup guides here to help you, like, for example, https://dashtalk.org/threads/taos-masternode-setup-guide-for-dummies.2680 (it's very easy and user friendly)

    Please, don't give up. This is a peer to peer network, so everyone is welcome to help improve it and make things easier and better.
     
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  6. Bugeater

    Bugeater Member

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    Wow, I am feeling stupid about how simple that is to un-check Darksend. Really appreciate the newbie picture.

    I know this is the entire point of DASH but I still don't get it. I thought there was no blockchain viewing like in Bitcoin. So what does DARKSEND do differently that normal send does not?
     
    #6 Bugeater, May 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2015
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  7. raganius

    raganius cryptoPag.com
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    Maybe the best person to explain it is toknormal, but I hardly ever see him around here...

    Here's a great post from him about the subject (source https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg11035761#msg11035761)

    quote:

    The real value is not so much in its technology, but in how it deploys it to create 'perfect asset-based money'.

    I know this looks a bit like an attack on other projects - it isn't meant to be but it's difficult to demonstrate the subtle powerfulness in Dash's priorities without contrasting them against those of alternatives who have chosen to prioritise things differently.

    This morning, ArticMine posted a link to this thread when discussing the bytecoin "premine". That thread contains a link to the annotated Cryptonote whitepaper which I read with interest as I'd never seen that one before (the annotated one that is) and I actually agree with much if not most of the remarks as far as they go.

    All the same, everytime I read it though it reminds me how cryptonote just isn't money (to me). It's a cryptographic messaging system which is a very different thing. They've built a safe to hold the money but not the money itself. (It’s not surprising though that if you put together a bunch of cryptographers and ask them to design money that they're more likely to churn out a cryptographic messaging system instead).

    The thing is, unlike fiat, in cryptocurrency there are 2 gearwheels (or ‘slabs’) each of which operates very independently of the other but in complimentary roles. One (the public part) attracts value and engenders confidence. The other supports privacy and anonymity (the global set of private keys). If the former is to perform well as money and have a high value then you can't mess with it. It needs to have as perfect as possible monetary properties

    With stealth/cryptonote the mistake that’s made in defining money is to assume that the value comes from the privacy (I suppose if you’re a cryptographer it probably does [​IMG] ). Then another one is made in assuming that in turn, privacy derives from obscurity of the asset. There's no base money in existence that I can think of where this is the case though. Monetary value derives from intrinsic monetary properties whereas privacy is an extrinsic one.

    Old Fiat Banking Model vs New Crypto Asset Model
    When people talk about "untraceability" and "unlinkability”, this refers to the public part of the blockchain - not the private. But in cryptocurrency, the appropriate place for “cryptographic protection” of this nature is in securing the firewall that separates those two halves - not in amongst the various addresses in the public part as if they were fiat bank accounts. They are not ‘bank accounts’. They are simply publicly valued blockchain addresses and don’t correspond to people any more than a diamond does.

    The fiat system doesn’t have this asset-like dual nature because it deploys a trusted counterparty to manage accounts, not assets. In other words it’s a bookkeeping job. As far as “the people” are concerned it is therefore all-private which is why I say Cryptonote/Stealth technology is a fiat business model since it’s trying to make crypto “all-private” as well and what that does is turn it from a base asset in it’s own right into no more than a “bookkeeping job” like banking (Albeit on a clumsy, piecemeal, “you-can-see-this-but-not-that”, censoring kind of basis).

    As more evidence of this “personalised account, fiat perspective”, note that CN proponents overwhelmingly tend to use personal pronouns when alluding to blockchain addresses which is a misunderstanding of the their nature and a ‘loaded’ form of vocabulary. Even cryptonote wallets actually encourage us to revert to the old fiat way of thinking where accounts “are” synonymous with people, by making it difficult to create and use new addresses on the fly - thereby diminishing their fungibility.

    Rather, I think of the blockchain as a containership full of coal plus the certificates of ownership. The coal is in full view but the hundreds of certificates that secure ownership to various tonnages are in diverse private hands. Sure, you might be able to learn something about its owners by watching the coal movements but that’s true of any good monetary medium. Whether it’s cash or coal, the more fungible it is the less you will know, but obscuring the coal stock in an attempt to enhance the privacy of the paper certificates is an exercise in futility as long as it’s reasonably fungible.

    [​IMG]

    In crypto, the real way to maximise privacy while at the same time liberating this “dual gearwheel” approach to work its miracles is to address fungibility *directly* - not by obscuring the public blockchain. That’s what defines the objectives of Dash as a technical project for me and what makes it potentially both extremely valuable and extremely anonymous.


    Maximise anonymity by doing this…
    [​IMG]


    But don’t do this…
    [​IMG]

    Apart from all that, the precedent has been set by bitcoin anyway and IMO it’s now impossible to back out of now that the liberation is there. You just can’t go from a fully uncensored blockchain to a censored one and make it look the least bit attractive because the alternative is the electronic equivalent of a swiss bank account for rich people except without the "trusted third party auditor” (which in bitcoin is the eyes of the world - not an algo) and therefore a breeding ground for scams, heists, deceptions and (ironically) corruption by the ‘NSA’ [​IMG] <— (That was a bit of a cheeky me, but still my honest opinion).

    After I post this we will probably get trolled to death and reminded a gazillion times about the ‘instamine’ etc. But it doesn’t change the fact that I feel this important high level analysis of monetary, business process and system-analysis perspectives has been lost in the noise of low level computer science concepts as exemplified by that PDF whitepaper.

    Just my own view of course - but one based on a monetary perspective not a cryptographic one for a change [​IMG] (+ 25 years in the systems analysis profession).​
     
  8. thelazier

    thelazier Active Member

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    The truth I believe are
    1. Dash do have blockchain.
    2. Darksend process is pre-mixing with others, all mixing are done by Masternode and can be seen on Blockchain. You can see your all addresses after mixed on Blockchain while at the same time it's really much harder for others to know who own these addresses after mixing for many more rounds.
    3. the Darksend checkbox in Sent window is being used to make sure that the amount will be send from mixed addresses, so others will see as anonymous sender.

    BTW, Welcome :)
     
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  9. moli

    moli Grizzled Member

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    Dash has both non-anonymous and anonymous features. For the non-anonymous feature you don't have to do anything, just send your coins by unchecking the Darksend box. But if you want your transactions to be anonymous, use the Darksend mixing to mix your coins first before spending them.

    What does Darksend do differently? "Darksend is an improved and extended version of the CoinJoin. In addition to the core concept of CoinJoin, we employ a series of improvements such as decentralization, strong anonymity by using a chaining approach , denominations and passive ahead-of-time mixing....." You can read Evan's white paper that explains what Darksend is and how it works:

    https://www.dashpay.io/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Dash-WhitepaperV1.pdf

    Basically, the more rounds of Darksend you use the harder for your transactions to be traced back to you. Suppose you use fiat to buy Bitcoins from an exchange which knows who you are, and then use the Bitcoins to buy Dash... all these transactions can be traced back to you. But Darksend is built to protect your privacy, makes it harder to trace, and it can be done from your own wallet, not by a third party.
     
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  10. Bugeater

    Bugeater Member

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    Awesome, the last two posts where much easier than the long graphic above. I did read a lot of the information on dashpay.io but this makes it so much easier. TWO QUESTIONS:

    -So using DASH without DARKSEND is the same privacy as BITCOIN or maybe less since blockchain so much smaller I'm sure. Is that right?

    -Using DARKSEND is not simple to me still. I did do 1000 with 2 rounds and took like 24 hours. After 24 hours only like 927 was done and just sat there at 91% for like 6 hrs and I gave up. Did I do something wrong? Is this normal experience?

    I am getting more motivated and excited the more I am hearing about this. DASH and Moreno really seem like the future of digital currency to me.
     
  11. moli

    moli Grizzled Member

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    I don't think the sizes of blockchains have anything to do with anonymity. If you use Dash without Darksend, it's just like you use any coin without the anonymity.
    It does take some time to get your coins anonymized because you need other people who also do the mixing to pair with them, this is part of the Coinjoin feature. But Darksend is much faster than before and our devs constantly work on optimizing this sytem.
    I'm not sure about Monero and have never invested in it so I can't tell you, but I'm glad to have you on board with Dash! :)
     
    #11 moli, May 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2015
  12. Bugeater

    Bugeater Member

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    I wish there was a green or red light that explained the COINJOIN was working. I always feel like it stops working and I don't know if it is "stuck" or just waiting like you said to find the right situation to finish the process. It is frustrating to look at it and feel like you want to stop & restart but not sure if that is helping or slowing it or not making a difference.
     
  13. moli

    moli Grizzled Member

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    You can stop the mixing and restart the wallet, or press the button "Try Mix" to see if it will go faster.
     
  14. Bugeater

    Bugeater Member

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    I did just this! LOL Not sure it did anything though.
     
  15. TaoOfSatoshi

    TaoOfSatoshi Grizzled Member
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    It is best to not monitor the mixing all the time. Just set it, and come back to it when you need to send funds. By then it will most likely be done.

    "A watched pot never boils"
     

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